The Southern "Irish"

[Gnevin]

uncertain sense of its own Irishness, an uncertain sense of its own place on this island.

That's something for themselves to work out.

Up to a point, I agree. But if nationalists are serious about a unitary state, then surely it's in our interests to help the process along?

How?

By widening what it means to be Irish, so that people who don't fit into the Catholic / Gaelic / nationalist bracket can also see their own ethnicity included in the definition.

Myles, lets go back because you're clouding the issue. 
You said, I've highlighted, that we should widen what it means to be Irish:
You also said:

at the moment, the definition carries with it the assumption that at the moment of birth you were handed a hurley, a rosary and a fainne pin.

So I'm asking YOU what do we need to include in the definition of Irishness that would make unionists fit in?

Ifepeople with links to this Island wish to define them self as Irish well I'm not one to question their definition , be it the unionist up north or the 2nd generation Irish in England ,so many of who lined out for Ireland during the 90's

[BallyhaiseMan]

The Definition of irishness should always be the incorporation of all the strands , beliefs and Culture that make up our society from all communities who are part of this island.

[Puckoon]

What about descendents of immigrants, whose parents, grandparents, great grandparents were Irish? Are they included in irishness? They may not watch gaelic games, nor irish dance, nor drink, but may be called "Summer O'Heir". Feck it, if they feel irish, let them be it.

[BallyhaiseMan]

Indeed Puck.

[Myles Na G.]

I agree with that completely. I also agree that, at the moment, the Irish people are divided about how they see future constitutional arrangements on the island. My view is that the onus is on natiionalism, as the bloc of Irish people wanting change, to conviince those Irish people who are happy with the link with Britain, that their interests might be better served in an independent unitary state. That isn't going to happen anytime soon, but it won't happen at all unless nationalists start to see the protestant / British community as genuinely Irish, rather than as 'themmuns'.

So basically you are saying it is up to the majority to convince the minority before change happens as the minority got there first?
I do agree with most of what you say in that anyone who wants to be Irsih can be and anyone who doesn't shouldn't have to be. Unfortunately the state decides which you are. The idea that it boils down to identity is one of the greatest bluffs of all time. The fact is that any nation which treats all it's citizens as equally as possible does not experience conflict or division on ethnic, religious or race grounds. It's when you start treating people like crap and have class systems based along these lines you get problems.

I'm saying it's up to the majority to convince the minority because that's the only way a single, independent state is going to come about. Even the Shinners have signed up to the consent principle.

[Myles Na G.]

uncertain sense of its own Irishness, an uncertain sense of its own place on this island.

That's something for themselves to work out.

Up to a point, I agree. But if nationalists are serious about a unitary state, then surely it's in our interests to help the process along?

How?

By widening what it means to be Irish, so that people who don't fit into the Catholic / Gaelic / nationalist bracket can also see their own ethnicity included in the definition.

Myles, lets go back because you're clouding the issue. 
You said, I've highlighted, that we should widen what it means to be Irish:
You also said:

at the moment, the definition carries with it the assumption that at the moment of birth you were handed a hurley, a rosary and a fainne pin.

So I'm asking YOU what do we need to include in the definition of Irishness that would make unionists fit in?

We need to recognise that the Protestant /British part of our population is as legitimately Irish as the Catholic / nationalist part. The implications of that are quite significant. It would mean accepting that the 6 north eastern counties of the island are part of the UK because a significant number of Irishmen and Irish women want it that way. It would mean accepting that Northern Ireland is an Irish state in exactly the same way that the 26 county republic is. That means that the Northern Ireland flag - the old Stormont government banner - is an Irish flag just like the tricolour. (Maybe it could even fly at Croke for rugby internationals). Once we start recognising and respecting our protestant / British neighbours as first class Irish citizens, they can maybe start taking us seriously when we tell them that their rights / culture / identity etc would be respected in an independent unitary state. Won't happen tomorrow, but if we don't start down that road it won't happen at all.

[pintsofguinness]

Ifepeople with links to this Island wish to define them self as Irish well I'm not one to question their definition , be it the unionist up north or the 2nd generation Irish in England ,so many of who lined out for Ireland during the 90's

I'm not questioning anyone's definition of irishness, I dont care who calls themselves Irish.

[pintsofguinness]

Myles

We need to recognise that the Protestant /British part of our population is as legitimately Irish as the Catholic / nationalist part. The implications of that are quite significant. It would mean accepting that the 6 north eastern counties of the island are part of the UK because a significant number of Irishmen and Irish women want it that way. It would mean accepting that Northern Ireland is an Irish state in exactly the same way that the 26 county republic is. That means that the Northern Ireland flag - the old Stormont government banner - is an Irish flag just like the tricolour. (Maybe it could even fly at Croke for rugby internationals). Once we start recognising and respecting our protestant / British neighbours as first class Irish citizens, they can maybe start taking us seriously when we tell them that their rights / culture / identity etc would be respected in an independent unitary state. Won't happen tomorrow, but if we don't start down that road it won't happen at all.

Who isn't recognising unionists as being Irish?
A bigger number of Irish men and women don't want the 6 counties to be part of the Uk. 
An old flag? Is that all that unionism has to bring to the table in redefining Irishness? Is that all they'd want in the definition to allow them all to declare themselves Irish because lets not forget an awful lot would knock your teeth in if you said they were Irish.
When have Protestants/Unionsts not have been treated as first class irish citizens?

[Gold]

Myles

We need to recognise that the Protestant /British part of our population is as legitimately Irish as the Catholic / nationalist part. The implications of that are quite significant. It would mean accepting that the 6 north eastern counties of the island are part of the UK because a significant number of Irishmen and Irish women want it that way. It would mean accepting that Northern Ireland is an Irish state in exactly the same way that the 26 county republic is. That means that the Northern Ireland flag - the old Stormont government banner - is an Irish flag just like the tricolour. (Maybe it could even fly at Croke for rugby internationals). Once we start recognising and respecting our protestant / British neighbours as first class Irish citizens, they can maybe start taking us seriously when we tell them that their rights / culture / identity etc would be respected in an independent unitary state. Won't happen tomorrow, but if we don't start down that road it won't happen at all.

Who isn't recognising unionists as being Irish?
A bigger number of Irish men and women don't want the 6 counties to be part of the Uk. 
An old flag? Is that all that unionism has to bring to the table in redefining Irishness? Is that all they'd want in the definition to allow them all to declare themselves Irish because lets not forget an awful lot would knock your teeth in if you said they were Irish.When have Protestants/Unionsts not have been treated as first class irish citizens?

True. I played for Belfast at School in soccer and went away to the States--ones in the States were sayin things like "it's great havin you Irish here" and "we love Ireland" etc --the usual shit--but to a man the Prods on that team (14/15 year olds) had to say we arnt Irish we are Northern Irish --even then i used to laugh and say to them you are Irish--the name is Northern IRELAND not Northern ENGLAND or Northern UK--they couldnt understand--i would ay this is the island of Ireland--we are in a small partitioned area in the north of that small island--it is named Northern IRELAND--but they just kept on sayin it with frown on when anyone said "are you guys Irish?." The reply from the Prods usually just left the American confused looking.

Anyway, i work in Dublin--have done for 2 years, im from Belfast--i too was shocked by how little most down here know of the North --i dont expect them to know everything but the total ignorance of many can be baffling at times. Im from Antrim--but i wa gettin Texts from ones at the start of the All Ireland Final wishin me luck--i have never had so many people congratulatin me on anything as i did in work the Monday after the game--i gave up tellin people i was not from Tyrone--many down here believe that its one County up there--i hadda guy in our work constantly asking me about Armagh and the Armagh championship last year--was i going to the Cross game on Sunday etc, was i goin to the Dubs game in Cross--i had to say in front of a good crowd at lunch that how many times did i have to tell him i was from Antrim not Armagh (part of the problem may be that Antrim are shite, and that most people not into GAA probably dont even know there is a County named Antrim.

At 5pm on Fridays a woman outta work always asks if im headin up ther road to England at the weekend--i dont know if shes windin me up or bein serious 2 years later.

We were bein brought to London for our Xmas do and i told the one in Work i had never been to London before--they actually couldnt believe it- they were sayin why havnt you been to your Capital? I told them i had as much reason as they might to travel to England --why because i close my eyes at night in a bed 100 miles North from them should i have a reason to travel to England that they dont.

Another thing is we have people in our work from Kerry who travel home at weekends and say to me--doe it not take you forever going home--how do you do it(at weekends). Im sick tellin them that it'l take me 2 hours (at most) gettin home while it takes them 5/6 hours drivin home--many, many Southerners have never been North and believe it is a land far far away.

As for the heroin epidemic, it didnt stop in the 70's and 80's --i work with many Junkies and live in the Inner City and can tell you that the problem is massive, reducing people who could be working/productive/playing sport/normal, living individuals to theiving, robbing, disease ridden beings who walk the streets zoned out in a Zombie like state.

[Roger]

I'm not questioning anyone's definition of irishness, I dont care who calls themselves Irish.

You are questioning what parts of unionist culture should be included in Irish culture.  I'd have thought all parts if they are distinctive to people from Ireland.  Is there some Irish person or people with the overall right to decide what gets to be Irish or not?

[Gnevin]

Myles

We need to recognise that the Protestant /British part of our population is as legitimately Irish as the Catholic / nationalist part. The implications of that are quite significant. It would mean accepting that the 6 north eastern counties of the island are part of the UK because a significant number of Irishmen and Irish women want it that way. It would mean accepting that Northern Ireland is an Irish state in exactly the same way that the 26 county republic is. That means that the Northern Ireland flag - the old Stormont government banner - is an Irish flag just like the tricolour. (Maybe it could even fly at Croke for rugby internationals). Once we start recognising and respecting our protestant / British neighbours as first class Irish citizens, they can maybe start taking us seriously when we tell them that their rights / culture / identity etc would be respected in an independent unitary state. Won't happen tomorrow, but if we don't start down that road it won't happen at all.

Who isn't recognising unionists as being Irish?
A bigger number of Irish men and women don't want the 6 counties to be part of the Uk. 
An old flag? Is that all that unionism has to bring to the table in redefining Irishness? Is that all they'd want in the definition to allow them all to declare themselves Irish because lets not forget an awful lot would knock your teeth in if you said they were Irish.When have Protestants/Unionsts not have been treated as first class irish citizens?

True. I played for Belfast at School in soccer and went away to the States--ones in the States were sayin things like "it's great havin you Irish here" and "we love Ireland" etc --the usual shit--but to a man the Prods on that team (14/15 year olds) had to say we arnt Irish we are Northern Irish --even then i used to laugh and say to them you are Irish--the name is Northern IRELAND not Northern ENGLAND or Northern UK--they couldnt understand--i would ay this is the island of Ireland--we are in a small partitioned area in the north of that small island--it is named Northern IRELAND--but they just kept on sayin it with frown on when anyone said "are you guys Irish?." The reply from the Prods usually just left the American confused looking.

Anyway, i work in Dublin--have done for 2 years, im from Belfast--i too was shocked by how little most down here know of the North --i dont expect them to know everything but the total ignorance of many can be baffling at times. Im from Antrim--but i wa gettin Texts from ones at the start of the All Ireland Final wishin me luck--i have never had so many people congratulatin me on anything as i did in work the Monday after the game--i gave up tellin people i was not from Tyrone--many down here believe that its one County up there--i hadda guy in our work constantly asking me about Armagh and the Armagh championship last year--was i going to the Cross game on Sunday etc, was i goin to the Dubs game in Cross--i had to say in front of a good crowd at lunch that how many times did i have to tell him i was from Antrim not Armagh (part of the problem may be that Antrim are shite, and that most people not into GAA probably dont even know there is a County named Antrim.

At 5pm on Fridays a woman outta work always asks if im headin up ther road to England at the weekend--i dont know if shes windin me up or bein serious 2 years later.

We were bein brought to London for our Xmas do and i told the one in Work i had never been to London before--they actually couldnt believe it- they were sayin why havnt you been to your Capital? I told them i had as much reason as they might to travel to England --why because i close my eyes at night in a bed 100 miles North from them should i have a reason to travel to England that they dont.

Another thing is we have people in our work from Kerry who travel home at weekends and say to me--doe it not take you forever going home--how do you do it(at weekends). Im sick tellin them that it'l take me 2 hours (at most) gettin home while it takes them 5/6 hours drivin home--many, many Southerners have never been North and believe it is a land far far away.

As for the heroin epidemic, it didnt stop in the 70's and 80's --i work with many Junkies and live in the Inner City and can tell you that the problem is massive, reducing people who could be working/productive/playing sport/normal, living individuals to theiving, robbing, disease ridden beings who walk the streets zoned out in a Zombie like state.

Gold it seems like most of those comments are taking the piss out of you.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Myles

We need to recognise that the Protestant /British part of our population is as legitimately Irish as the Catholic / nationalist part. The implications of that are quite significant. It would mean accepting that the 6 north eastern counties of the island are part of the UK because a significant number of Irishmen and Irish women want it that way. It would mean accepting that Northern Ireland is an Irish state in exactly the same way that the 26 county republic is. That means that the Northern Ireland flag - the old Stormont government banner - is an Irish flag just like the tricolour. (Maybe it could even fly at Croke for rugby internationals). Once we start recognising and respecting our protestant / British neighbours as first class Irish citizens, they can maybe start taking us seriously when we tell them that their rights / culture / identity etc would be respected in an independent unitary state. Won't happen tomorrow, but if we don't start down that road it won't happen at all.

Who isn't recognising unionists as being Irish?
A bigger number of Irish men and women don't want the 6 counties to be part of the Uk. 
An old flag? Is that all that unionism has to bring to the table in redefining Irishness? Is that all they'd want in the definition to allow them all to declare themselves Irish because lets not forget an awful lot would knock your teeth in if you said they were Irish.When have Protestants/Unionsts not have been treated as first class irish citizens?

True. I played for Belfast at School in soccer and went away to the States--ones in the States were sayin things like "it's great havin you Irish here" and "we love Ireland" etc --the usual shit--but to a man the Prods on that team (14/15 year olds) had to say we arnt Irish we are Northern Irish --even then i used to laugh and say to them you are Irish--the name is Northern IRELAND not Northern ENGLAND or Northern UK--they couldnt understand--i would ay this is the island of Ireland--we are in a small partitioned area in the north of that small island--it is named Northern IRELAND--but they just kept on sayin it with frown on when anyone said "are you guys Irish?." The reply from the Prods usually just left the American confused looking.

Anyway, i work in Dublin--have done for 2 years, im from Belfast--i too was shocked by how little most down here know of the North --i dont expect them to know everything but the total ignorance of many can be baffling at times. Im from Antrim--but i wa gettin Texts from ones at the start of the All Ireland Final wishin me luck--i have never had so many people congratulatin me on anything as i did in work the Monday after the game--i gave up tellin people i was not from Tyrone--many down here believe that its one County up there--i hadda guy in our work constantly asking me about Armagh and the Armagh championship last year--was i going to the Cross game on Sunday etc, was i goin to the Dubs game in Cross--i had to say in front of a good crowd at lunch that how many times did i have to tell him i was from Antrim not Armagh (part of the problem may be that Antrim are shite, and that most people not into GAA probably dont even know there is a County named Antrim.

At 5pm on Fridays a woman outta work always asks if im headin up ther road to England at the weekend--i dont know if shes windin me up or bein serious 2 years later.

We were bein brought to London for our Xmas do and i told the one in Work i had never been to London before--they actually couldnt believe it- they were sayin why havnt you been to your Capital? I told them i had as much reason as they might to travel to England --why because i close my eyes at night in a bed 100 miles North from them should i have a reason to travel to England that they dont.

Another thing is we have people in our work from Kerry who travel home at weekends and say to me--doe it not take you forever going home--how do you do it(at weekends). Im sick tellin them that it'l take me 2 hours (at most) gettin home while it takes them 5/6 hours drivin home--many, many Southerners have never been North and believe it is a land far far away.

As for the heroin epidemic, it didnt stop in the 70's and 80's --i work with many Junkies and live in the Inner City and can tell you that the problem is massive, reducing people who could be working/productive/playing sport/normal, living individuals to theiving, robbing, disease ridden beings who walk the streets zoned out in a Zombie like state.

Gold it seems like most of those comments are taking the piss out of you.

Gotta agree with Gnevin here, Gold those comments made to you must be people taking the piss, even Primary/National School Geography would dismiss most of those statements.

[mylestheslasher]

I was in college with a girl from Tipp who thought that Cavan was under British rule and that Belfast was in Co Belfast. There are idiots everywhere I'm afraid.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

I was in college with a girl from Tipp who thought that Cavan was under British rule and that Belfast was in Co Belfast. There are idiots everywhere I'm afraid.

Don'y get me wrong, I have met many "educated" people in the six counties, who think that Strabane is in Co Derry!

[Evil Genius]

I was in college with a girl from Tipp who thought that Cavan was under British rule and that Belfast was in Co Belfast. There are idiots everywhere I'm afraid.

Don'y get me wrong, I have met many "educated" people in the six counties, who think that Strabane is in Co Derry!

I hope you pointed out it's Co. Londonderry...