Author Topic: The Late Late show  (Read 198632 times)

AZOffaly

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2085 on: May 01, 2018, 03:56:37 PM »
Seanie, Ireland is the only country I have a voice. I'm uneasy with elective abortion anywhere.

Syf, absolutely, I agree with the principles of democracy. I can also disagree with certain laws but can accept that if I want to live in this country, I have to accept the will of the majority. I agree with the majority on most things.

And again, I'm not trivialising it, but the term 'medical treatment' implies there is some sort of medical intervention required to save the woman. There's not. What you are talking about is elective abortion to remove a viable pregnancy because the woman (or the couple) doesn't want it.

Syferus

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2086 on: May 01, 2018, 03:58:21 PM »
Seanie, Ireland is the only country I have a voice. I'm uneasy with elective abortion anywhere.

Syf, absolutely, I agree with the principles of democracy. I can also disagree with certain laws but can accept that if I want to live in this country, I have to accept the will of the majority. I agree with the majority on most things.

And again, I'm not trivialising it, but the term 'medical treatment' implies there is some sort of medical intervention required to save the woman. There's not. What you are talking about is elective abortion to remove a viable pregnancy because the woman (or the couple) doesn't want it.

No one should be coerced into giving birth against their will. Preventing that is certainly medical care.

AZOffaly

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2087 on: May 01, 2018, 04:03:33 PM »
Fair enough. That's an understandable position. There are others who say nobody deserves to have the chance of life taken away from them as they are in their mothers womb, and I think that's also an understandable position.

*To clarify, in case anyone thinks I'm being cowardly here, I fall into the latter category. But I understand it's not an easy thing. I don't think people will be using this as a form of contraception, or be blasť about it. I know that has been put forth by the No side too.

ardtole

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2088 on: May 01, 2018, 04:10:36 PM »
Fair enough. That's an understandable position. There are others who say nobody deserves to have the chance of life taken away from them as they are in their mothers womb, and I think that's also an understandable position.

*To clarify, in case anyone thinks I'm being cowardly here, I fall into the latter category. But I understand it's not an easy thing. I don't think people will be using this as a form of contraception, or be blasť about it. I know that has been put forth by the No side too.
Unfortunately I think there will be instances where a woman finds herself pregnant, without planning to have a baby and will seek to have an abortion, if she feels it may hamper her career or some other issue. It's niave to think otherwise. It might not be an everyday occurrence but it will happen.

AZOffaly

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2089 on: May 01, 2018, 04:12:18 PM »
Fair enough. That's an understandable position. There are others who say nobody deserves to have the chance of life taken away from them as they are in their mothers womb, and I think that's also an understandable position.

*To clarify, in case anyone thinks I'm being cowardly here, I fall into the latter category. But I understand it's not an easy thing. I don't think people will be using this as a form of contraception, or be blasť about it. I know that has been put forth by the No side too.
Unfortunately I think there will be instances where a woman finds herself pregnant, without planning to have a baby and will seek to have an abortion, if she feels it may hamper her career or some other issue. It's niave to think otherwise. It might not be an everyday occurrence but it will happen.

You will always have outliers. I don't think the clinics will be swamped by pregnant women who decided to abort the pregnancy. But you are right, there will be some and I don't agree with the premise.

Syferus

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2090 on: May 01, 2018, 04:14:57 PM »
Fair enough. That's an understandable position. There are others who say nobody deserves to have the chance of life taken away from them as they are in their mothers womb, and I think that's also an understandable position.

*To clarify, in case anyone thinks I'm being cowardly here, I fall into the latter category. But I understand it's not an easy thing. I don't think people will be using this as a form of contraception, or be blasť about it. I know that has been put forth by the No side too.

I used to think so too, but it's a position that only worked in the abstract the more I thought about it.

If someone has an unexpected pregnancy and doesn't want to have an abortion no one on the pro-choice side tries to stop her; the same in not true in the reverse. It's an invasion into the private lives of citizens in a similar manner to the ban on same sex marriage. Ultimately the rights of the fully-grown woman are more important than those of an embryo, to put it in the coldest terms possible. The No side wants to pretend the potential human is completely equal to the full grown one - that is hard position to fathom on a logical rather than emotional level.

magpie seanie

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2091 on: May 01, 2018, 04:16:18 PM »
There are many issues short of the potential death of the mother that should be considered grounds for a termination in my view. The example mentioned by Dr Boylan the other night is a good one. Surprise pregnancy. Mother has diabetic condition so carrying child to term may result in complications such as loss of sight, limbs etc. Mother A has no children and has tried several rounds of unsuccessful IVF. Mother B has 3 children already at home. Mother A might be willing to take the risk. Mother B may not be so willing. Tell me who is wrong? If the 8th amendment is not removed then pregnancies like this MUST continue in Ireland. I wouldn't want that for my wife or my two girls.

The elective terminations up to 12 weeks is a separate issue. I don't stand in the shoes of the women who are going on Ryanair every week currently. I don't know their circumstances or what's going on in their lives. Perhaps if they didn't have to go and we had good supports and counselling in place less would choose to terminate. I'd suggest that's where a lot of energy should be placed if the new proposed regime comes in. Crucially, also, this 12 weeks covers potentially victims of sexual assault or rape who for many reasons (as we've seen recently) do not want to report the crime. The reality is there are many of these women as the stats on unreported crimes of this nature are significant.

It's a very difficult area. One thing I'm absolutely certain of though is that the 8th amendment needs to go. The proposed legislation has been arrived at via a tortuous process - I cannot see any appetite in the bigger parties to deal with this issue any time soon so talk of extensions of timeframes are a bit fanciful I think. Even SF won't have the appetite - they're barely holding the ship together on it at the moment. 

AZOffaly

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2092 on: May 01, 2018, 04:19:42 PM »
True. A lot of this is emotional. If you look at it in a 'cold' way, as you put it, I can see the logic.

However, for me, the possible things that child could be, or do, or what it might feel or contribute to society, all make it very difficult for me to agree with aborting the pregnancy where the baby would have a perfectly healthy start to life.

For cases like rape and incest, or where fatal foetal abnormalities are detected, I do have a more sympathetic view, although a rapist's baby is not at fault for the sins of the father, I can still see the emotional turmoil a situation like that would lead to.

** Sorry, I was responding to Syf here, but yes Seanie, one thing I agree with you on is that this is very complex question, and neither a blanket ban, nor open season, are the way to go. Leaving this in the hands of politicians is also something I am uneasy with. Look at Simon Harris, and the way his department are handling the Cervical Cancer issue. Do you trust that lad to draft legislation? And if the elective abortions is legislated, do you really, really believe that effective supports would be put in place to make more women choose to keep the baby? Pardon my French, but it will in my arse. This will be seen as an answer to a societal problem, and if anything there will be less supports and less incentive for people to see the pregnancy through.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2018, 04:24:51 PM by AZOffaly »

BennyCake

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2093 on: May 01, 2018, 04:23:42 PM »
Repeal the law, and you'll see abortions during your lunch hour. It'll become so common it'll be like getting a tooth filled. Once you go there, there's no way back.

This talk of an abortion because having a child is an inconvenience to career etc, well there's no excuse these days. Plenty of birth control methods easily available.

Nearly 200,000 abortions in England and Wales annually. That's 2 million in a decade. Just think about that for a minute.

magpie seanie

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2094 on: May 01, 2018, 05:04:28 PM »
True. A lot of this is emotional. If you look at it in a 'cold' way, as you put it, I can see the logic.

However, for me, the possible things that child could be, or do, or what it might feel or contribute to society, all make it very difficult for me to agree with aborting the pregnancy where the baby would have a perfectly healthy start to life.

For cases like rape and incest, or where fatal foetal abnormalities are detected, I do have a more sympathetic view, although a rapist's baby is not at fault for the sins of the father, I can still see the emotional turmoil a situation like that would lead to.

** Sorry, I was responding to Syf here, but yes Seanie, one thing I agree with you on is that this is very complex question, and neither a blanket ban, nor open season, are the way to go. Leaving this in the hands of politicians is also something I am uneasy with. Look at Simon Harris, and the way his department are handling the Cervical Cancer issue. Do you trust that lad to draft legislation? And if the elective abortions is legislated, do you really, really believe that effective supports would be put in place to make more women choose to keep the baby? Pardon my French, but it will in my arse. This will be seen as an answer to a societal problem, and if anything there will be less supports and less incentive for people to see the pregnancy through.


Of course I'd be sceptical - I think a lot of the talk about this is absolute hypocrisy. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. People focus on the headline issue when societies ills run much deeper. Why are women seeking abortions for non health related reasons? Are they just mindless murderers? Personally I do not think so and to view it/them as such shows a poor grasp of reality or a lack of willingness to face facts. Interesting example above mentioned of a woman electing for an abortion for career reasons - even citing that as an example indicates a deeper societal issue. There's no way a woman should think that way but of course they do because it does in many cases impact their careers.

To be fair - I'm the first to criticise politicians but what other option do we have to our democracy? And in the case you mention I think we'll all eventually find out it is Mary Harney who is holding the smoking gun. Not that Harris is anything to defend.

magpie seanie

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2095 on: May 01, 2018, 05:09:11 PM »
Repeal the law, and you'll see abortions during your lunch hour. It'll become so common it'll be like getting a tooth filled. Once you go there, there's no way back.

This talk of an abortion because having a child is an inconvenience to career etc, well there's no excuse these days. Plenty of birth control methods easily available.

Nearly 200,000 abortions in England and Wales annually. That's 2 million in a decade. Just think about that for a minute.


You are aware that thousands of Irish women each year are having abortions either by travelling to Britain or ordering pills online? They're among that number. Reducing that number should be the main goal of everyone. A Yes or No vote in isolation will not impact that one little bit.

Tony Baloney

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Re: The Late Late show
« Reply #2096 on: May 01, 2018, 05:14:48 PM »
Lads can this be moved to the new 8th Amendment thread rather than LLS.