Sick days in work...someone will know

[pintsofguinness]

Friend of mine works in a place and they all got an email about 6 months ago that sick pay i.e. being paid for sick days, would be at the management's discretion.  No one passed much remarks but has time gone on a little bit of resentment arose as some people were getting paid for sick days and others weren't (I'm talking genuine sickness, not ringing in on a monday morning because you cant get out of bed). 
Now, in the last few months they've taken another turn and are refusing to pay anyone for sick days, hiding behind this email they sent out that it was at their "discretion".

Is this normal practice?  I wouldnt have thought so, seems very harsh. 



btw, it's in the six counties.

[Mayo4Sam]

I would have thought it was against labour laws

[KCGaelicFootball]

Friend of mine works in a place and they all got an email about 6 months ago that sick pay i.e. being paid for sick days, would be at the management's discretion.  No one passed much remarks but has time gone on a little bit of resentment arose as some people were getting paid for sick days and others weren't (I'm talking genuine sickness, not ringing in on a monday morning because you cant get out of bed). 
Now, in the last few months they've taken another turn and are refusing to pay anyone for sick days, hiding behind this email they sent out that it was at their "discretion".

Is this normal practice?  I wouldnt have thought so, seems very harsh. 



btw, it's in the six counties.

In general an employee has no right under employment law in Ireland to be paid while on sick leave. Consequently, it is at the discretion of the employer to decide his/her own policy on sick pay and sick leave, subject to the employee's contract or terms of employment. Under Section 3 of the Terms of Employment (Information) Act 1994 and 2001 an employer must provide an employee with a written statement of terms of employment within two months of the commencement of the employment. One of the terms referred to in this Act on which the employer must provide information is the terms or conditions relating to incapacity for work due to sickness or injury.

If you have no entitlement in your terms and conditions of employment to pay during sick leave, you may apply for Illness Benefit if you have enough social insurance contributions. If you do not have enough social insurance contributions, you should contact the Community Welfare Officer of your Local Health Office who will assess your situation.

If you are entitled to sick pay, your employer will probably require you to sign over any Illness Benefit payment from the Department of Social and Family Affairs to your employer for as long as the sick pay continues.

Often, your contract of employment will place a maximum period of sick pay entitlement in a stated period, for example, one month's sick pay in any 12-month period. Clear rules should be put in place by the employer where an employee is sick and is unavailable for work. For example, it should be clear that if you are sick and unavailable for work, you must contact a specified person by a certain time. If you are out sick for more than three consecutive dates you are usually required to provide your employer with a medical certificate (from your GP or family doctor). The medical certificate should state the nature of your illness and the date you are likely to return to work. If you are likely to be out sick for a longer period, your employer may require you provide weekly medical certificates.

In some circumstances, where an employee has consistently been absent from work (or if through illness is no longer capable of continuing work), employment may be terminated. Employees are protected in certain circumstances in this instance through the unfair dismissals legislation.

If you are unsure about whether or not you are entitled to sick pay, you should consult your contract of employment or speak to your employer.

An employee who does not receive sick pay as per his/her terms of employment may refer a complaint to a Rights Commissioner under the Payment of Wages Act and the relevant complaint form is available on request from this office.

Employment Regulation Orders and AgreementsThe following industries are covered by Employment Regulation Orders/Registered Employment Agreements which contain binding regulations regarding sick pay : Agriculture - Brush and Broom - Catering - Contract Cleaning - Construction - Electrical Contractors - Retail Footwear and Drapery (Dublin only) - Hairdressing (Dublin only) - Law Clerks - Provender Milling - Retail Grocery - Security Industry.

Sick leave during public holidaysIf you are a full time worker who is on sick leave during a public holiday, you have an entitlement to time off work for the public holiday(s) you missed. If you are a part-time worker on sick leave during a public holiday, you would be entitled to time off work for the public holiday provided you worked for your employer at least 40 hours in the previous 5-week period.  

However you lose your entitlement to public holidays if you have been on sick leave for more than 26 weeks in the case of ordinary illness and 56 weeks in the case of an occupational accident.

Sick leave and annual leaveIf you are ill during your annual leave and have a medical certificate for the days you were ill, these sick days will not be counted as annual leave days. Instead, you can use these days as annual leave at a later date.

An employer cannot require you to take annual leave for a certified period of illness. However, illness during the leave year will reduce the total number of hours worked by you and can therefore affect your entitlement to annual leave. While you are on sick leave from work you do not accumulate annual leave entitlement.

Annual leave accumulated before start of sick leave: Many employers insist that you take your annual leave by a particular date, for example, the end of the calendar year. The European Court of Justice has ruled in case C-350/06 that a worker who is on sick leave at the end of the leave year should not lose the right to annual leave which was accumulated before the start of the sick leave. This judgement also applies to a worker who was on sick leave immediately before leaving the employment. This means that the worker would be entitled either to carry over, or receive payment for, annual leave which has been earned but not taken because the worker was on sick leave.

Hospital appointmentsIf you are in employment and have to take time out of your day to attend a hospital appointment, you may take this time off work. You must have a medical certificate from the hospital for the appointment. However, you are not automatically entitled to pay for this time off while attending hospital appointments. Some employers however will pay their employees while they attend hospital appointments but they are not required by law to do so.  Check with your employer to find out the situation in your workplace.

Remember, your employer cannot force you to take annual leave to attend such hospital appointments.

[midLouth]

POG

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/Employees/Pay/DG_10027238

From what I can gather here it is at the employers discretion, the employee maybe entitled to social welfare.

[Over the Bar]

Theres no automatic entitlement to sick pay other than SSP.

However if there's a contractual sick pay then the employers is in breach if he unilaterally removes the entitlement without consent.

In the current economic climate you will see many employers removing benefits safe in the knowledge that staff will not object too stongly for fear of their jobs.

[The Watcher Pat]

Theres no automatic entitlement to sick pay other than SSP.

However if there's a contractual sick pay then the employers is in breach if he unilaterally removes the entitlement without consent.

In the current economic climate you will see many employers removing benefits safe in the knowledge that staff will not object too stongly for fear of their jobs.

SSP should be paid by the employer as Incapacity Benefit or Employment Support Allowance will not be paid by the government before SSP ends...If your employer refuses to pay SSP you will require a the form SSP1 from your employer stating the reasons why SSP is not paid before any benefits will be paid.

[pintsofguinness]

thanks lads
They've said they're entitled to sick pay, but I wouldnt imagine it's worth talking about?
Does the employer pay statutory sick pay or the government?

If you have no entitlement in your terms and conditions of employment to pay during sick leave,

This is the thing, and over the bar touched on it, 6 months ago everyone got paid for sick days and my friend is pretty sure it's in their contract (I've told her to look it up) so I assume they can't suddently change the terms and conditions of everyone's contract with a group email?
But as already said, it's a place that's been affect by the recession, everyone there is lucky they have a job and if  they lost it they wouldnt get another one for however long this last so they have to keep their mouth's shut.  Seems a very lousey act.




Place is a joke, fire alarm went off in it last week, someone set it off by accident.  In one part of the building it didnt go off.  In the part it did go off the ones upstairs went to go out on the first fire door, it wouldnt open, tried the second fire door, wouldnt open either! and they'd to walk around the whole building to get out the front door! 

[The Watcher Pat]

The employers pay SSP..As far as i know the employer then claims it back from the government.

[pintsofguinness]

Ah she says she'd to sign a new contract in September and it says:
"you will be paid during absence in accordance with the Statutory sick pay scheme.  Any payment at your normal pay rate will be at the discretion of your line manager".

So that's that.  They can do what they want.

[The Real Laoislad]

Tell her she is lucky to have a job rather than worrying about getting paid for when she is sick..

[pintsofguinness]

Tell her she is lucky to have a job rather than worrying about getting paid for when she is sick..

As I said on my second post in this thread, they are lucky to have a job, they know it, but that doesnt stop you wondering if your employer is taking the piss. 


If you can help with my query great, if not and you just want to have a dig at someone you dont know then dont bother.

[The Real Laoislad]

[haze]

Very interested in this topic.

I've a similar query- my brother broke his arm late year and missed 4 weeks of work. He got full pay for these four weeks as he had a certificate for 4 weeks. Upon his return to work he was asked to claim back from his PRSI his entitlement and make this payable to his company which is all quite fair.

On his return he was told that it was company policy only to pay 20 sick days in a 12 month period and that he would not be entitled to any more sick pay- again i suppose fair enough.

However, he was then told that if any more days were taken as being sick in the next 12 months that these days would be taken out of annual leave annual entitlement. Is this legal??? When he asked about unpaid leave, he was simply told that it was firm policy not to grant unpaid leave in any circumstance.

Basically he has no problem taking unpaid leave if sick but totally unwilling to lose annual leave. Does he have any leg to stand on if he goes in all guns blazing??

[thebandit]

I dont think so, and I think he did quite well to get that amount of sick pay.

Here's one:

A woman works 5 days a week, 40 hours a week, and becomes pregnant. Upon her return, she wants to go to 4 days a week. Can she do this?

[haze]

I dont think so, and I think he did quite well to get that amount of sick pay.

yes 20 days is very good, but the point is if he misses any more days in the next 12 months then his annual leave days will be reduced accordingly. The way i look at it, he was better off not getting paid for the 4 weeks, claiming back for the 4 weeks from his PRSI and then avoided all the hassle. He has already lost 2 annual holidays with the flu that half the country got.

From reading other posts i got the impression that annual leave and sick pay are totally unrelated once your total number of hours in a month qualifies for annual leave.