joe kernan...over-rated?

[bennydorano]

On Fermanagh being fermanagh(insulting and all as it is). 

[The GAA]

Yeah but that doesn't mean that the armagh camp were similarly aloof

[bennydorano]

no, it's my opinion.

[maddog]

2004 - Def over confident, couldn't change the game plan or pace of game.
2005 - just came out the wrong end of a result that could have went anyway
2006 - Overconfident against Kerry - yeah given our fantastic record against Kerry in championship football there were people in Armagh trying to get their houses on it  
2007 - Just a bad year, lost to Donegal undeservedly, never got going v derry
2008 - Possibly a bit over confident v Wexford

The underlying thing with this Armagh team is / (hopefully was) the inability or lack of will to change the game plan. Ditch the defensiveness and success will come again in some measure. Keep playing with McDonnell and Clarke as the only 2 inside the opposition 45 and we win nothing again.

[mountainboii]

I for one am glad that Armagh's problem over the last decade seems to have been 'over confidence'. Makes a change from 120 years of under confidence 

Regarding Fermanagh in 2004, its my opinion that if Enda McNulty hadn't done the stupidest thing in his career half way through that game, Armagh would've eased home by 4 or 5 points. Fermanagh made excellent use of the extra man in the second half that day. 

[armaghniac]

Regarding Fermanagh in 2004, its my opinion that if Enda McNulty hadn't done the stupidest thing in his career half way through that game, Armagh would've eased home by 4 or 5 points

Indeed one player's mistake had a lot to do with the margin of victory in 2006 too. But Kerry played some of their best football in recent years that day, as only they can, only an eejit would have been over confident that day.

[corn02]

McNulty's dismissal is forgotten by all when mentioning that match. What was it, the 15th minute or something on a very, hot day? Massive impact.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

I think that fundamentally Kernan was an excellent manager. By 2001 Armagh looked to have been a spent force and i remember aertel the morning of the Tyrone match in 2002 tipping the Red hands and saying that Armagh had missed their chance to win Sam. You also have to take into account the fact that many of the team themselves had lost faith by the time Joe took over. Does any else remember the article with Aidan O'Rourke where he said that after the Galway match in 2001 a galway player commiserated with him and said "Sure you'll be back next year" to which O'Rourke replied "No chance, we're finished." That's a hell of a statement to give up on your life's ambition and for Joe to take that team over and win an All Ireland within a matter of months was something special and he'll be remembered with fondness for it in Armagh forever. Had he been in charge of Armagh from 1998 I've no doubt we'd have won at least 2 All Irelands. He instilled both a belief and an effective system of play that Armagh had never had before and may not have again for some time. His sides produced superb football at times, particularly the 2nd half against Dublin in 2003, the 2004 Ulster final and the 2005 league final and made some terrific comebacks, particularly against Tyrone in 2005.

That said, he certainly made crucial mistakes in each year after 2002. In 2003 he constantly played Clarke out of position. In 2004 he has to take the brunt of responsibility for the complacent way the Fermanagh match was handled. Had he not taken Geezer off in 2005, I believe we'd have hung on. By 2006 we'd begun a decline which he was unable to arrest but persisted with some very strange team selections. By Oisin's own admission, his relationship with Joe began to deteriorate while the McEntee's should never have been put in the position of wanting to retire due to lack of football when they still had so much more to give. Does anybody really think that Stephen kernan is a better centre half forward than John McEntee even today?

Even taking the mistakes at their height, Joe's record stands with the best and I'd rate him as highly as any manager in the country.

I don't think your views on the arrogance of Armagh supporters are fair Billy, certainly not of those of us who attend all the matches. Yes we expected to beat Fermanagh in 2004 but looking at the two sides and particularly the way we played in the previous match against Donegal, how could you have expected us not to. In 2005, most people would have said that there was nothing between us and Tyrone. There wasn't - 3 matches, 1 win each and a draw, we scored a point more over the trilogy but they won the right match. In 2006, most people I knew thought it'd be a fairly match. We maybe had a right to be slight favourites given that we hadn't been beaten int he championship yet that year and we'd been closer to Tyrone the previous year than Kerry were but I don't remember any arrogance or people assuming we'd definitely win - just a quiet confidence which unfortunately wasn't fulfilled. In 2007 most of the informed Armagh supporters were a lot less triumphant about our chances against Derry than the media who had us down as certainties. Have a look at the thread on this board because I remember a lot of us expressing reservations.

[mountainboii]

McNulty's dismissal is forgotten by all when mentioning that match. What was it, the 15th minute or something on a very, hot day? Massive impact.

Think it was right before half time.

Another thing that fucked up Armagh that day was going 4 points up in the first 5 minutes. They fell into a comfort zone after that and couldn't pull themselves out of it when Fermanagh inched their way back.

[mountainboii]

Regarding Fermanagh in 2004, its my opinion that if Enda McNulty hadn't done the stupidest thing in his career half way through that game, Armagh would've eased home by 4 or 5 points

Indeed one player's mistake had a lot to do with the margin of victory in 2006 too. But Kerry played some of their best football in recent years that day, as only they can, only an eejit would have been over confident that day.

Unfortunately true. The 8 point victory for Kerry that day was extremely harsh. Think there was only 2 in it with about 3 or 4 minutes left, Galvin had been just put off, and Armagh were piling on the traditional last ditch pressure... when Enda let the ball bounce over his head 

[Mike Sheehy]

Look, you wouldnt have any AI if cooper had kicked for that point in the last minute instead of Brosnan in 2002.

[armaghniac]

Look, you wouldnt have any AI if cooper had kicked for that point in the last minute instead of Brosnan in 2002

and we might have had several if this and that had happened. Any one of a number of kicks in the SFs 2000 could have prevented Kerry getting an AI that year.

[billy the kid]

Look, you wouldnt have any AI if cooper had kicked for that point in the last minute instead of Brosnan in 2002.

I know ur prob on the wind up, but cant let that one slide. Armagh won the AI in 2002 because they deserved it and were the better team over the whole game. Yes Kerry could have won as it was tight but IMHO Armagh deserved it that year. And sure yous have enough AIs to do a few counties Mike, as you Kerry folk like telling us.

[mylestheslasher]

Could someone with a better memory than me list all the trophies Kernan has won as a manager and maybe all the trophies Mickey Harte has won.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Look, you wouldnt have any AI if cooper had kicked for that point in the last minute instead of Brosnan in 2002.

And you wouldn't have won the All ireland in 2000 if Marsden had kicked for that point in the last minute instead of O'Hagan. 

I stand to be corrected but to my recollection Kernan won 6 Armagh SFCs (1996 - 2001 - perhaps BC could confirm if he was the manager in 2001?), 3 Ulster club titles (1996, 1998 and 1999) and 3 All Ireland Club titles (1997, 1999 and 2000). With Armagh he won 4 Ulster championships (2002, 2004-2006), a National League in 2005 and the All Ireland in 2002.

Harte won 3 All Irelands (2003, 2005 and 2008) and 2 Ulster Championships (2003 and 2007) with Tyrone. I think he won at least one league - 2003 I think. He has a great collection of underage success as well.