The Magdalene Sisters/laundries/church control in Ireland

[pintsofguinness]

And the apologists will come on making excuses now 
Quite shocking, imagine what it would be if abortion was available here.

the numbers would be the exact same and we wouldn't hypocritically and cynically be exporting our problems?

How do you figure the numbers would be the same? They would be higher as it would be available on people's door steps.
We're not exporting our problems.

[dublinfella]

How do you figure the numbers would be the same? They would be higher as it would be available on people's door steps.
We're not exporting our problems.

Women don't go and get scraped out because its 'on their doorstep'. They do it because for a variety of reasons they decide its the course of action for them, right or wrong. If you think that the flight to London is the deal breaker you are on cuckoo land. Google Nurse Cadden - abortions have been available illegally in Ireland since the year dot - at least women aren't dying in numbers anynmore.

Are you for real that we aren't exporting our problems? Its illegal for a woman to do it here, but no problem at all if they jump on a plane and do it elsewhere? How is that not cynical.

[Myles Na G.]

Figures released by Health Minister Michael McGimpsey show that there were 1,343 abortions carried out in England and Wales where the woman gave a home address in Northern Ireland in 2007 — the majority of which would be regarded as illegal here.

In N.Ireland the population is now considered to be 1.4 million and in 2006 the number of live births was 23272.  Roughly on the basis of the 2007 abortion figures, there were at least 25070 pregnancies in N.I. in 2007.  Therefore, the minimum percentage of children aborted was 5.36%.  It will be much higher as Scotland provides a similar but closer abortion service for women from N.Ireland.

1.75m, according to a report released at the beginning of December.

[pintsofguinness]

Women don't go and get scraped out because its 'on their doorstep'. They do it because for a variety of reasons they decide its the course of action for them, right or wrong. If you think that the flight to London is the deal breaker you are on cuckoo land.

If a flight to London stops one selfish cow from aborting her baby then it's worth it.  

How can banning abortion be exporting our problems, we've outlawed it.  You cant stop someone going to England to get it done, unfortunately.

[dublinfella]

If a flight to London stops one selfish cow from aborting her baby then it's worth it.  

As said my me in another thread, you know the schools are out. Come back to me when you have lived a bit in the real world. What a cnut.

How can banning abortion be exporting our problems, we've outlawed it.  You cant stop someone going to England to get it done, unfortunately.

But you can stop someone going to England to plant a bomb, rob a bank etc. Why do you think that they made this one an exception?

[pintsofguinness]

As said my me in another thread, you know the schools are out. Come back to me when you have lived a bit in the real world. What a cnut.

A ****?  I object to people murdering their unborn children because they're too selfish to look after them and I'm the ****?

But you can stop someone going to England to plant a bomb, rob a bank etc. Why do you think that they made this one an exception?

You can't stop someone from flying to England, it would be impossible for the authorities to know if they're going for an abortion but if they want to start prosecuting I'd support it.

[dublinfella]

A ****?  I object to people murdering their unborn children because they're too selfish to look after them and I'm the ****?

What a charmer. I think even the most ardent pro-lifer understands that there are more complex reasons for terminating pregnancies than "because they're too selfish to look after them ".

Grow up.

You can't stop someone from flying to England, it would be impossible for the authorities to know if they're going for an abortion but if they want to start prosecuting I'd support it.

Good for you. How many women would have to die in backstreet abortion clinics in Ireland (again) for you to change your mind on that one?

[milltown row]

That's shocking, down right murder.

Murder? and selfish cow are a bit harsh, but not surprising POG.

until you know all the facts or reasons behind why these girls/women feel that this is the only avenue for them to take, you should lay off the generalisation.

[pintsofguinness]

DF

What a charmer. I think even the most ardent pro-lifer understands that there are more complex reasons for terminating pregnancies than "because they're too selfish to look after them ".

Complex reasons like what? I'm not talking about cases of rape, sexaual abuse or instances where the mother's life is at risk but the other 95% of abortions, what complex reasons are there? What justifies aborting a baby?

Good for you. How many women would have to die in backstreet abortion clinics in Ireland (again) for you to change your mind on that one?

I dont give a shite, people die with bad drugs every year, should be legalise drugs?

[imtommygunn]

While I strongly disagree with abortion POG I think you are talking nonsense. Where did you get this 95% statistic from?

Yes there are reasons like rape, mothers life at risk, child abuse etc which are not the norm.

There can be complex scenarios like family ones - what if the family would disown a young person, what if someone was young and just wasn't mentally stable enough to bring up a child, what if there were degenerative diseases in a family which a mother suffered from, didn't mean to get pregnant, and didn't want a child to be brought up in this kind of scenario.

You have black and white views on everything. Everything is not black and white - if it were we'd all be no better than computers.

There are many schools of thought that drugs should be legalised yes but that's another argument. Of course you will come back with the "drugs are bad" argument however as per the above it's not black and white.

[pintsofguinness]

There can be complex scenarios like family ones - what if the family would disown a young person, what if someone was young and just wasn't mentally stable enough to bring up a child, what if there were degenerative diseases in a family which a mother suffered from, didn't mean to get pregnant, and didn't want a child to be brought up in this kind of scenario.

None of these are reason enough for me to end a life.
Family disown a young person? Extremely rare occurance these days imo, no reason to abort.
Young person pregnant? - always adoption, old enough to have sex, old enough to face the consquences.
Mentally unstable person - always adoption
Didn't want a child? Tough shit, have sex, accept the consequences. 

You have black and white views on everything. Everything is not black and white - if it were we'd all be no better than computers.

Everything is not black and white but most things are if you're willing to get off the fence. 

There are many schools of thought that drugs should be legalised yes but that's another argument. Of course you will come back with the "drugs are bad" argument however as per the above it's not black and white.

I just made the point that people do illegal things and if it's dangerous it doesnt mean we have to make them legal.

The last time I looked at statistics it's something like 1 or 2% of reasons for abortion was that the mother was raped, suffered sexual abuse.  The pro abortion crowd normally latch on to these reasons to justify abortion, my point is that they are extremly rare occurences and imo are a whole new discussion in relation to abortion. 

[winsamsoon]

For me, the politicians and state authorities knew full well what was going on but chose to ignore it. What they didn't like, they didn't see

Lar that is all fine and well but what the lads are saying is that it was a product of the society at the time. If politicians would have came out and spoke about it then they would have been ostracised by the community. They would have lost any respect they had worked to gain. I agree they did know what was going on whilst the ordinary 5/8 person was completely ignorant to it. But they simply had to accept it because it kept the status quo and didn't go against the church. I have great aunties and uncles and still to this day if you said a bad word about the priests they would throw you out of the house. You soon learn not to question anthing in the house  . But you can come out of the house afterwards and realise how silly it is to accept and never question anything. It is a bit like the bible belt in America only a lot less extreme. The extremities of the Magdalene sister is to us horrific and totally unacceptable but at the time people where content to let it exist for fear of speaking out against the higher authorities. I can guarantee some of the people who allowed their kids to go to places like this are totally haunted by guilt in modern society. A film like the Magdalene sisters would obviously hunt them. If you thought that you put your child through that it would be very difficult to live with yourself.

[The Iceman]

Although I don't agree with POG's delivery I do agree that there are no justifiable reasons for abortion.
I have not heard of any reason or excuse for abortion that does not have an alternative that protects the life of the child.

It's a black and white issue in my book too.

[The Iceman]

Lar that is all fine and well but what the lads are saying is that it was a product of the society at the time. If politicians would have came out and spoke about it then they would have been ostracised by the community. They would have lost any respect they had worked to gain. I agree they did know what was going on whilst the ordinary 5/8 person was completely ignorant to it. But they simply had to accept it because it kept the status quo and didn't go against the church. I have great aunties and uncles and still to this day if you said a bad word about the priests they would throw you out of the house. You soon learn not to question anthing in the house  . But you can come out of the house afterwards and realise how silly it is to accept and never question anything. It is a bit like the bible belt in America only a lot less extreme. The extremities of the Magdalene sister is to us horrific and totally unacceptable but at the time people where content to let it exist for fear of speaking out against the higher authorities. I can guarantee some of the people who allowed their kids to go to places like this are totally haunted by guilt in modern society. A film like the Magdalene sisters would obviously hunt them. If you thought that you put your child through that it would be very difficult to live with yourself.

Good post
I think fear of the Church had a huge part to play in all of this.  Also the Church vetting system was ridiculous at the time.  Everyone and anyone was able to take up the religious life.  Today there is extreme psychological profiling and testing carried out during entry to training.  I does not wipe out the problem today and I am sure there is still abuse and corruption in the Church like any other organisation but some day please God that wont be the case.

[imtommygunn]

A predictably black and white answer POG.

I don't sit on the fence. I think it's wrong but it's not always black and white. I disagree with abortion but I also disagree with your views about the black and white reasons for it.

I used the argument didn't want a child in those scenarios - not wanting a child and having an abortion due to this is disgusting behaviour.

Mentally unstable parent = potentially mentally unstable unchild. The argument there was not that there is adoption.