I am prepared to go back to the Irish people

[Zapatista]

Zap what will voting no again archive for Ireland, Ireland Inc and the Irish People and what you think it will imply for our future within the Union?

The question is loaded Gnevin although I don't think it was intentional.

A no vote is not about achieveing anything material but about preventing something material.

A No vote will prevent the EU from becoming the type of Federal State it is on course to becoming. It will prevent the creation of a (superpowerfull) federal state based on a constitution founded on the free market, competition, greed and power. it might only prevent this for a short time.

I can see one of two things happen.

1. We eventually accept the lisbon treaty as a constitution and see the creation of this superpower with a constitution founded in the points mentioned above. One way or another it is the ambition of the current EU leadership and they will want to see it happen through the current treaty offered or even more cynical means.

2. We reject this again. We manage to give a voice to the millions in the EU who agree with us and activily and democratically change the direction of the Eu. We drive the Eu towards a constitution based on Human rights, fair trade, democracy and equality. This will require much more than a No vote but it does include a No vote and may save much more dramatic forms of saying No in the years ahead.

[stephenite]

I can't find a good reason to vote 'Yes'. I am pro EU and well disposed towards the success of the whole venture, so I'm more than willing to consider any argument in favour of a 'Yes' vote. I mean a real, positive presentation of the benefits, not a listing of the predicted negative consequences of a 'No' vote.

I am somewhat surprised that the combined wisdom of the famously shrewd politicians of Ireland has failed to inform me of a single real benefit that will accrue to this country and its people as a result of the implementation of the EU constitution, now renamed as a treaty. All I have heard is that it will improve the efficiency of administration and that there will be hell to pay if I don't vote for it. Well, I'm afraid the first argument doesn't begin to stand up against the opposing arguments of ceding sovereignty, transfer of power from people to politicians and worse, to unelected officials. And the second one only deserves to be dignified with the reply it got the last time. If there's only one answer, don't patronise me by putting the question in the first place.

There must be a positive case to be made, surely? Having despaired of the politicians, I now turn to the good men and women of the GAA discussion board. Can anyone explain to me how the proposed changes in EU governance will result in a positive benefit for (a) Ireland  and (b) Europe. I mean anything beyond a more streamlined bureaucracy - an easier life for the administrators won't be sufficient to persuade me to give up the rights and privileges I hold at present. And please avoid the argument that we have to do it because everybody else is doing it or expects it of us.

The way I see it Hardy is-

We become a superpower able to challenge China, the USA and to a lesser extent Russia as a dwindling superpower. We will, as Europens be able to plunder and dictate to the rest of the crippled world to ensure we have high rich lists and less important high poverty rates. Irelands position as a neutral country with a place in the world has become untenable and so we must be part of this new superpower if we want to avail of these opportunities..

That's sort of the way I see it - Hardy asked what benefit would it be to his kids, how about being part of a global economy and all that goes with it as opposed to being an isolated state with no access to shared natural resources, shared finances, shared infrastructure projects.

I know it's currently unpalatable to a lot of people but I think, for the long term benefit of the country you'd be mad to vote No. I'm planning to travel from Australia just to vote Yes.

[Gnevin]

Zap what will voting no again archive for Ireland, Ireland Inc and the Irish People and what you think it will imply for our future within the Union?

The question is loaded Gnevin although I don't think it was intentional.

A no vote is not about achieveing anything material but about preventing something material.

A No vote will prevent the EU from becoming the type of Federal State it is on course to becoming. It will prevent the creation of a (superpowerfull) federal state based on a constitution founded on the free market, competition, greed and power. it might only prevent this for a short time.

I can see one of two things happen.

1. We eventually accept the lisbon treaty as a constitution and see the creation of this superpower with a constitution founded in the points mentioned above. One way or another it is the ambition of the current EU leadership and they will want to see it happen through the current treaty offered or even more cynical means.

2. We reject this again. We manage to give a voice to the millions in the EU who agree with us and activily and democratically change the direction of the Eu. We drive the Eu towards a constitution based on Human rights, fair trade, democracy and equality. This will require much more than a No vote but it does include a No vote and may save much more dramatic forms of saying No in the years ahead.

Ok maybe i didn't phase it correctly . Do you believe if we vote no again the EU will in essence be held hostage by 5 million people and redraft the entire thing ? In practicals terms out line you see events after a no vote playing out. Such as treaty rejected ,redraft etc. It is my believe the EU will move ahead with out us.

[Zapatista]

That's sort of the way I see it - Hardy asked what benefit would it be to his kids, how about being part of a global economy and all that goes with it as opposed to being an isolated state with no access to shared natural resources, shared finances, shared infrastructure projects.

I know it's currently unpalatable to a lot of people but I think, for the long term benefit of the country you'd be mad to vote No. I'm planning to travel from Australia just to vote Yes.

All that can be achieved without a constitution. That merely needs agreement. A constitution binds its citizen to an ideal. Lisbon is a flawed ideal which we and the EU as a whole should have no part in. We don't need a constitution to share resourses, in fact in Ireland we give ours away. We don't need a constitution to stay in the Euro zone. We don't need a constitution to build a tunnel to France.

If we have a constitution we can rely on good citizens to defend and uphold our Constitution with patriotism and flag waving. Just what the world needs. 

[Zapatista]

Ok maybe i didn't phase it correctly . Do you believe if we vote no again the EU will in essence be held hostage by 5 million people and redraft the entire thing ? In practicals terms out line you see events after a no vote playing out. Such as treaty rejected ,redraft etc. It is my believe the EU will move ahead with out us.

No I don't believe anyone will be held hostage. Hostage is the wrong choice of word and a little dramatic but they are being used to black mail us. I feel as if I am being black mailed by the EU and the Government.

You are assuming the rest of the EU population want this treaty. Why?
When other countries voted on the first draft the majority of the people of the EU didn't know or care that it was happeneing. Most Irish people had no idea what the French rejected it or why. They didn't care. There never was an internal debate about the treaty in 22 member states. Millions of people in 22 member states have never seen the treaty or thought to ask about it in any detail. To these people the treaty is not an issue. If they were to have a referendum on it it would become an issue. These millions of people are intentionally detached from the workings of the EU and the treaty. A big part of the Yes spin for justifing a re-run is that people didn't know what they were voting on yet they use people who really have no idea to guilt us into voting Yes. The idea that we are holding these people hostage is rediculous.

I can see a general election here. If this is the case we will see Irish politicans either saying they will defend Irelands decision or saying they will try to have the treaty ratified. We will then decide which we want and maybe elect a Gocernment with this in mind. If we elect a Government who want to see it ratifeid it will be ratified in the Dail. If we elect a Government who want to defend our decision we will see the EU re-drafting the treaty and coming back again before the EU election in 2014. This will be more complicated than after the French vote as there will be new Governments across the EU with new demands. Eventually they will reach agreement and we will have something else. Hopefully in this senario it will be something worth accepting based on the needs and wants of the people of the EU who are not as imperialist as the Lisbon treaty would have them be.

[Gnevin]

Ok maybe i didn't phase it correctly . Do you believe if we vote no again the EU will in essence be held hostage by 5 million people and redraft the entire thing ? In practicals terms out line you see events after a no vote playing out. Such as treaty rejected ,redraft etc. It is my believe the EU will move ahead with out us.

No I don't believe anyone will be held hostage. Hostage is the wrong choice of word and a little dramatic but they are being used to black mail us. I feel as if I am being black mailed by the EU and the Government.

You are assuming the rest of the EU population want this treaty. Why?
When other countries voted on the first draft the majority of the people of the EU didn't know or care that it was happeneing. Most Irish people had no idea what the French rejected it or why. They didn't care. There never was an internal debate about the treaty in 22 member states. Millions of people in 22 member states have never seen the treaty or thought to ask about it in any detail. To these people the treaty is not an issue. If they were to have a referendum on it it would become an issue. These millions of people are intentionally detached from the workings of the EU and the treaty. A big part of the Yes spin for justifing a re-run is that people didn't know what they were voting on yet they use people who really have no idea to guilt us into voting Yes. The idea that we are holding these people hostage is rediculous.

I can see a general election here. If this is the case we will see Irish politicans either saying they will defend Irelands decision or saying they will try to have the treaty ratified. We will then decide which we want and maybe elect a Gocernment with this in mind. If we elect a Government who want to see it ratifeid it will be ratified in the Dail. If we elect a Government who want to defend our decision we will see the EU re-drafting the treaty and coming back again before the EU election in 2014. This will be more complicated than after the French vote as there will be new Governments across the EU with new demands. Eventually they will reach agreement and we will have something else. Hopefully in this senario it will be something worth accepting based on the needs and wants of the people of the EU who are not as imperialist as the Lisbon treaty would have them be.

Once again you've ignored or where unable to answer the question.  You went off a a total side line about Millions of people  in other countires and general elections but I want to know what you see happening .

If we reject the treaty in practical terms do you see the EU redrafting the whole thing to suit us ? Do you see Ireland moving closer economically to the EU 26 or away. Do you see Ireland's influance in the EU increasing or decreasing.  Practical terms not anti treaty spin.

[Tankie]

But you are not debating. On the No side they put up posters about Tax, Neutrality, Abortion which had nothing to do with the treaty, this had a huge effort on the way people voted. These are the lies i am talking about and the lies the guy from SF start telling me.

Also why dont you explain your 'Whats the point in having a Veto if you aint gonna use it' statement as this also has no effect on the treaty either but something the No camp mention alot.

The European Union is a free market trade union.  The Lisbon treaty is a constitution designed to create a federal aspect to that union. It is created to help centralise and equalise the domestic and foreign interest of its members. It is the stated ambition of the main players in European Union to harmonise trade and competition within the Eu and have a common foreign policy (through a Ministerial Department) regarding trade and enterprise. This common Foreign approach by EU countries is not possible when cooperation tax is is unequal internally.  The Lisbon treaty as a constitution empowers the EU to persue this ambition through trade and competition laws. I believe does require the support of every member state. I believe that due to the requirement of this support it means Ireland has a veto. If the situation arises that Tax harmonisation is proposed Ireland will have the chance to Veto it.

The Lisbon treaty requires Ireland to come to the aid of member attacked by terrorists. It does not define what terrorism is. It mandates Ireland to increase military spending. Being ma dated to increase military spending by the 26 other member states is a threat neutrality as being mandated to do it by Iran. It creates a foreign office and a president who are empowered to make decisions on EU foreign policy. This position being held by eg.Tony Blair could be a threat to neutrality as much as if it were held by George Bush. In anyone who has not been elected by the Irish people and has a right to act internationally on behalf of the Irish people is a threat to neutrality.

I don't agree with Irelands neutral position and actually think we are not neutral but i think these decisions should remain with the Irish people.

I don't believe abortion is anymore of a threat from the EU as it is from the Dail.

I have no faith in our Governments using a veto. I believe they are committed to the futher empowerment of the EU over Ireland. After hearing what the said during the last treaty campaign (regarding the Eu and our Governments predicted response) and actually bringing the treaty back to be voted on again I think our Government are unwilling to use  their Veto. I think a precedent has been set.

I didnt ask you for your view on the lies, i just said they were lies and you seem to agree with me. It is not good politics to lie with that type of poster campaign.

In regard to not using the Veto sure we are still in the same place as if we vote yes or no. If the other 26 countries wanted to bring in a single taxation policy at present which is posible under current rules well it would be upto Ireland to use it Veto then. So bringing into the debate is scaring and confussing people.

You still never discussed the lies that we spread by the No side Zap!!!!!

You still have yet to answer this ZAP and are showing what everyone believes about the No side.

you must have been onto the troops by this stage and have some answer about the lies that were put up on every street corner about these issues.....

[Tankie]

Zap what will voting no again archive for Ireland, Ireland Inc and the Irish People and what you think it will imply for our future within the Union?

The question is loaded Gnevin although I don't think it was intentional.

A no vote is not about achieveing anything material but about preventing something material.

A No vote will prevent the EU from becoming the type of Federal State it is on course to becoming. It will prevent the creation of a (superpowerfull) federal state based on a constitution founded on the free market, competition, greed and power. it might only prevent this for a short time.

I can see one of two things happen.

1. We eventually accept the lisbon treaty as a constitution and see the creation of this superpower with a constitution founded in the points mentioned above. One way or another it is the ambition of the current EU leadership and they will want to see it happen through the current treaty offered or even more cynical means.

2. We reject this again. We manage to give a voice to the millions in the EU who agree with us and activily and democratically change the direction of the Eu. We drive the Eu towards a constitution based on Human rights, fair trade, democracy and equality. This will require much more than a No vote but it does include a No vote and may save much more dramatic forms of saying No in the years ahead.

Thats bullshite and lies as its no upto us to decide what other EU states want, this has been passed by all the other states so you can only assume that if the people in these countries were unhappy they would be out on protest marches, strikes etc.

[Zapatista]

Once again you've ignored or where unable to answer the question.  You went off a a total side line about Millions of people  in other countires and general elections but I want to know what you see happening .

If we reject the treaty in practical terms do you see the EU redrafting the whole thing to suit us ? Do you see Ireland moving closer economically to the EU 26 or away. Do you see Ireland's influance in the EU increasing or decreasing.  Practical terms not anti treaty spin.

You asked me what i thought would happen and I told you.  You then redefined and asked again and I answered and for a third time -



I do see a redraft or a new treaty written by new Governments. I do see Ireland moving closer to the EU in many ways including economically. I don't see Irelands influence changing. We will have the same number of MEPs, a Comissioner and a member of the council. That can't change with a No vote.

Can you try to sell me the treaty? The yes side have made an offer. They aren't much good at selling it as they are only asking me why I wouldn't want it. It makes no sense. Instead of asking me to tell you why I don't want it you should be explaining why i should want it. It's all mixed up here.

You & Tankie have yet to say why you might disagree with anything I have said and instead repeat the same old questions. That's not a debate it is putting me on trial.

And Tankie - I give up. Whatever you say.

[Tankie]

Once again you've ignored or where unable to answer the question.  You went off a a total side line about Millions of people  in other countires and general elections but I want to know what you see happening .

If we reject the treaty in practical terms do you see the EU redrafting the whole thing to suit us ? Do you see Ireland moving closer economically to the EU 26 or away. Do you see Ireland's influance in the EU increasing or decreasing.  Practical terms not anti treaty spin.

You asked me what i thought would happen and I told you.  You then redefined and asked again and I answered and for a third time -



I do see a redraft or a new treaty written by new Governments. I do see Ireland moving closer to the EU in many ways including economically. I don't see Irelands influence changing. We will have the same number of MEPs, a Comissioner and a member of the council. That can't change with a No vote.

Can you try to sell me the treaty? The yes side have made an offer. They aren't much good at selling it as they are only asking me why I wouldn't want it. It makes no sense. Instead of asking me to tell you why I don't want it you should be explaining why i should want it. It's all mixed up here.

You & Tankie have yet to say why you might disagree with anything I have said and instead repeat the same old questions. That's not a debate it is putting me on trial.

And Tankie - I give up. Whatever you say.

You said the No side didnt lie in the last campaign, you asked me to point out where they did and now you dont want to respond.


- And as for not saying why i disagree i always have, i believe the government and the opposition and like the idea of Europe working better as a whole. We still have control of our own tax and do not think you arguements stands up on this as I said earlier europe could look for harmonization next week and we would still need to use our veto. This veto

- in regard to abortion it aint an issue for me as i am pro choice but it is quite clear alot of the courntry are not but again this is not an issue of this treaty and was only brought in by the No side.

- On Military I can see where you are coming from, particularly in the event of an attach on another EU member BUT i would be very disappointed with the Irish people if we were not to send out troops over regardless (even today without a treaty), the EU would protect us and I would expect us to do the same. I am not sure if our army is trainned in combat so it may be a peace keeping force etc but we should stand up for our allies. In being part of the EU at present i really fail to see how we could be considered neutral anyway.

- On the idea of Europe working better is also a reason i support the treaty, one of the big parts of this is that we (and every other country) have given up all but 5 veto's which are considered important to individual countries but as for the 60 we have given up i believe the government when they say that they are not needed, in 35 years we have never used them and I thought Garreth Fitz point that a farming one was used against us by France in the 1970's. He pointed out the case of 11 countries voted in favour of a farming subsity but France said it did not suit them so it was rejected, I believe the new model of majority voting is the best way to go on such issues particulary when you have 27+ members.

[Zapatista]

You said the No side didnt lie in the last campaign, you asked me to point out where they did and now you dont want to respond.


- And as for not saying why i disagree i always have, i believe the government and the opposition and like the idea of Europe working better as a whole. We still have control of our own tax and do not think you arguements stands up on this as I said earlier europe could look for harmonization next week and we would still need to use our veto. This veto

- in regard to abortion it aint an issue for me as i am pro choice but it is quite clear alot of the courntry are not but again this is not an issue of this treaty and was only brought in by the No side.

- On Military I can see where you are coming from, particularly in the event of an attach on another EU member BUT i would be very disappointed with the Irish people if we were not to send out troops over regardless (even today without a treaty), the EU would protect us and I would expect us to do the same. I am not sure if our army is trainned in combat so it may be a peace keeping force etc but we should stand up for our allies. In being part of the EU at present i really fail to see how we could be considered neutral anyway.

I have said I think abortion will not be affected by the EU anymore than it will by the Dail. As you can see and have conceeded to I did answer the other points.

[Tankie]

You said the No side didnt lie in the last campaign, you asked me to point out where they did and now you dont want to respond.


- And as for not saying why i disagree i always have, i believe the government and the opposition and like the idea of Europe working better as a whole. We still have control of our own tax and do not think you arguements stands up on this as I said earlier europe could look for harmonization next week and we would still need to use our veto. This veto

- in regard to abortion it aint an issue for me as i am pro choice but it is quite clear alot of the courntry are not but again this is not an issue of this treaty and was only brought in by the No side.

- On Military I can see where you are coming from, particularly in the event of an attach on another EU member BUT i would be very disappointed with the Irish people if we were not to send out troops over regardless (even today without a treaty), the EU would protect us and I would expect us to do the same. I am not sure if our army is trainned in combat so it may be a peace keeping force etc but we should stand up for our allies. In being part of the EU at present i really fail to see how we could be considered neutral anyway.

I have said I think abortion will not be affected by the EU anymore than it will by the Dail. As you can see and have conceeded to I did answer the other points.

Well once the No side stick to the facts this time round and we have an honest debate I think we will be fine either way. But the last part of my post regarding a better run EU is my main reason for voting Yes.

[Hardy]

That's sort of the way I see it - Hardy asked what benefit would it be to his kids, how about being part of a global economy and all that goes with it as opposed to being an isolated state with no access to shared natural resources, shared finances, shared infrastructure projects.

But we will still be part of the EU and therefore part of that global economy and won't become an isolated state whether we vote 'Yes' or 'No'. It's very depressing that the government's lie that this vote determines our membership of the EU is being so readily accepted.

Can anyone tell me how the EU could throw us out or on what basis our membership of the EU would be under threat based on our decision in this referendum? What mechanism could be used to expel us? What would such an expulsion, even if it were possible, say to the 22-odd "smaller" members of the EU?

And the nonsense about our "influence" in the EU is just that - nonsense. EU decisions are made by vote, not by "influence" (FF-speak for nod and wink and parish pumpery that doesn't hold water at EU level).

The "keep Ireland at the heart of Europe" argument is a big lie. We are members and are staying members and this referendum has nothing to do with that.

[Tankie]

That's sort of the way I see it - Hardy asked what benefit would it be to his kids, how about being part of a global economy and all that goes with it as opposed to being an isolated state with no access to shared natural resources, shared finances, shared infrastructure projects.

But we will still be part of the EU and therefore part of that global economy and won't become an isolated state whether we vote 'Yes' or 'No'. It's very depressing that the government's lie that this vote determines our membership of the EU is being so readily accepted.

Can anyone tell me how the EU could throw us out or on what basis or membership of the EU would be under threat based on our decision in this referendum? What mechanism could be used to expel us? What would such an expulsion, even if it were possible, say to the 22-odd "smaller" members of the EU?

And the nonsense about our "influence" in the EU is just that - nonsense. EU decisions are made by vote, not by "influence" (FF-speak for nod and wink and parish pumpery that doesn't hold water at EU level).

The "keep Ireland at the heart of Europe" argument is a big lie. We are members and are staying members and this referendum has nothing to do with that.

Where have the government ever said that the EU would kick us out or that it was a vote on membership?

[Zapatista]

Did you delete your last post Tankie?