Irish Swell British Army Ranks

[An Fear Rua]

True colours shining through as ever, I knew it wouldnt be long

[Roger]

Ha Ha. This coming from a tradition that dresses up in bowler hats each year, wears a sash, Burn the pope, Gerry Adams on a bonfire to celebrate a victory of one english king over another. A victory for protestanism sponsored by the pope that happened 100's of years ago. Pretty funny there Roger.

I have never been a member of a Church or religious Order or a Political party or Politico-cultural grouping of any sort.

[Roger]

True colours shining through as ever, I knew it wouldnt be long

I have never made any bones about my different view on what goes for the definitive "Irish" culture on here.

[mylestheslasher]

Ha Ha. This coming from a tradition that dresses up in bowler hats each year, wears a sash, Burn the pope, Gerry Adams on a bonfire to celebrate a victory of one english king over another. A victory for protestanism sponsored by the pope that happened 100's of years ago. Pretty funny there Roger.

I have never been a member of a Church or religious Order or a Political party or Politico-cultural grouping of any sort.

I never wore a Leprecaun suit either Roger but I assumed you were making stupid general comments about the Irish and not personally about me. I likewise gave you, tongue in cheek, a little of your own generalisations back.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

I suppose it's a bit harsh but I just don't get the "Irish" culture that the "Irish" have.  I do see it as largely anti-British and feel totally outside it. Yet I see massive overlaps and to me it is just a British region in denial with some nasty bits bolted on. 

Any cursory research into Irish literature or music for example would dispel that fairly quick.  Irish culture existed independently of British culture and then became entwined.  The differences are more pre-existing than add-ons.  No doubt you have no desire/need/intent to do such research: fair enough.  But then please don't pontificate about what you don't know about.

Who is promoting most this cultural language and for what reason?

Be less insular Roger, look outside the Northern Ireland context.  Many academics, hobbyists and people from genuine Gaeltachts promote the language.  This would include many British people from Scotland.

No but what was the reason for making them up? Most sports are made up for sports reasons.

Michael Cusack started the GAA in response to a highly politicised effort to eradicate certain aspects of culture.  This is historical fact. It is evidence by British statute books from approx. 1750 - 1890.  It in no way takes away from the merits of the games themselves.

/Jim.

[Yes I Would]

Keep this up Roger and you could pip the bard for Numpty of the year!

[Roger]

Any cursory research into Irish literature or music for example would dispel that fairly quick.  Irish culture existed independently of British culture and then became entwined.  The differences are more pre-existing than add-ons.  No doubt you have no desire/need/intent to do such research: fair enough.  But then please don't pontificate about what you don't know about.

I have no doubt that there was a separate culture on this island at one stage.  Is that the culture now? Is that Irish or Irish culture? I just see the cultures now pretty much intertwined (to use your word) and those that are highlighting differences tend to have a Political objective in this.  Those of us from Ireland who are British have largely lost out on a richer cultural exposure of the many cultural aspects of this island because culture has largely been designed to be different in order to make a Political point.

Btw, Jim I only gave my opinion or pontificated, surely that is allowed even though it is a difference of opinion or pontification?

Be less insular Roger, look outside the Northern Ireland context.  Many academics, hobbyists and people from genuine Gaeltachts promote the language.  This would include many British people from Scotland.

The language bit is completely lost on me. I just don't see the need for it as I speak for communication.  If people want to learn it I am all for it as I would be any other harmless pastime. The vastly different promotion of the "Irish" language in Ireland (both ROI and NI) in proportion to other pastimes by groups and governments is Political though.  In NI the context is particularly horrendous. I don't know how those particular users sit with the users in the ROI but I once spoke to a Gaeltachter in Galway once and he said he hates the Northern Irish users of the language as he said they murder it.

Michael Cusack started the GAA in response to a highly politicised effort to eradicate certain aspects of culture.  This is historical fact. It is evidence by British statute books from approx. 1750 - 1890.  It in no way takes away from the merits of the games themselves.

The GAA is still highly Political and sets itself out as anti-British. It is not a part of "Irish" that I could associate with yet it is definitively Irish.

All in all Jim there are a whole raft of cultural quirks and debates to be had.  I just don't get the anti-British bits and because the cultures are so intertwined and the people of these islands have co-habited and interbred that to be shocked at why an Irish person would join the Army is surprising apart from the usual Irish=anti-British quarters.  I could understand why someone would say they didn't want anyone to join the Army because of what is involved, but that wouldn't matter whether the recruit was from Dingle, Donaghadee or Donnnigton.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

I have no doubt that there was a separate culture on this island at one stage.  Is that the culture now? Is that Irish or Irish culture? I just see the cultures now pretty much intertwined (to use your word) and those that are highlighting differences tend to have a Political objective in this.  Those of us from Ireland who are British have largely lost out on a richer cultural exposure of the many cultural aspects of this island because culture has largely been designed to be different in order to make a Political point.

You are saying two different things in one sentence:

• There are people who highlight the differences between the cultures to make a political point
• These differences are largely "designed" into the cultures for political reasons

The former is a reasonable point and one that could be made about "British" and "Irish" people of all hues. 

The latter is very dubious.  It is reasonable to say it is an opinion but backing it up with a rationale of "I just don't get it" is nonsensical, particularly when contrary evidence is so readily available.  Do you think that Book of Kells, Annals of the Four Master or 18th century Róisín Dubh style poetry was engineered in 1920's Ireland to somehow justify the existance of a separate state.

The language bit is completely lost on me. I just don't see the need for it as I speak for communication.  If people want to learn it I am all for it as I would be any other harmless pastime. The vastly different promotion of the "Irish" language in Ireland (both ROI and NI) in proportion to other pastimes by groups and governments is Political though.  In NI the context is particularly horrendous. I don't know how those particular users sit with the users in the ROI but I once spoke to a Gaeltachter in Galway once and he said he hates the Northern Irish users of the language as he said they murder it.

Some people see it as critical to their identity.  It happens:  Belgium, Basque country, Brittany, Wales.  You admit you don't get it but you still weigh in with a definitive view on their motivation.  You think that is reasonable? 

As for someone from Galway and their views on Northern Irish language that could be as much about dialect as anything else.  Like any language there are dialects and pronounciation nuances from region to region.  Akin to English and Ulster-Scots maybe?

The GAA is still highly Political and sets itself out as anti-British. It is not a part of "Irish" that I could associate with yet it is definitively Irish.

Fair enough but again you were having a pop the games ("made up") not the organisation.

All in all Jim there are a whole raft of cultural quirks and debates to be had.  I just don't get the anti-British bits and because the cultures are so intertwined and the people of these islands have co-habited and interbred that to be shocked at why an Irish person would join the Army is surprising apart from the usual Irish=anti-British quarters.  I could understand why someone would say they didn't want anyone to join the Army because of what is involved, but that wouldn't matter whether the recruit was from Dingle, Donaghadee or Donnnigton.

Listen Roger someone could be anti-British Army without being anti-British.  Someone from Donnington is not going to have immediate family/friends who suffered at the hands of the British Army where as some from Dingle or Donaghadee may well have.  Then there is also plenty of people (as there is plenty of British people) who would see joining an army of any other state as disloyal. 

Oodles of reasons: so why go with lazy, hackneyed and jaundiced view of Irish=Anti-British?

/Jim.

[nifan]

Roger, just because some of the people who promote the irish language do it for the wrong reason doesnt mean that they all do.
Some of the gobshites that might talk about NI football would make me cringe, but that doesnt mean they own it.

[Main Street]

The evidence would appear to be that Roger is intolerant with a heavy negative edge.

Not understanding something is enough evidence for him to have oodles of disdain.
And being blind to evidence that would counter his prejudice.

Strange for a guy who professes a hatred for intolerance and bigotry.

Culture is also about respect for diversity in human expression. Roger would appear to a exhibit a severe lack of a few important components of culture.
Is intolerance and disdain such an important part of the Irish Brits culture?

[Roger]

I feel that a lot of British Irishmen lose out on Irish culture because the Irishness that is dominant has been highly Politicised which has the effect of excluding people from it. There is no doubt about that in my mind.  Is that intolerance or bogotry?  It possibly, even probably, has led to a prejudice in me against things "Irish" because the dominant thread in Irish culture appears to be anti-Brit. Is that right? I would argue ye, but it may possibly not be but that is the perception.  It doesn't mean that I am any less Irish in my mind though, but I just can't identify with that sort of Irishness and don't like it being presented as Irish. I think there is a whole pile more to being Irish than the narrow version that this board subscribes to.  Now, the questions and the type of discussion that Jim Murphy is conducting is reasonable, interesting, and informative. However, it isn't for this thread.  What I don't get is that so many people in Ireland have a British culture and have contributed to British culture, country and Army for hundreds of years.  Why is it a surprise now that Irish people are doing this at the moment? The criticism that I have heard has been from the anti-Brit brigade of Ireland so that's to be expected, but others?

[Roger]

Roger, just because some of the people who promote the irish language do it for the wrong reason doesnt mean that they all do.
Some of the gobshites that might talk about NI football would make me cringe, but that doesnt mean they own it.

In Northern Ireland what percentage of those promoting the language are of the gobshite / Political division type though? That's before we discuss do we actually even need it for those that just like it? My view on the latter is yes but don't spend disproportionate public funds on it, my view on the former is that it is a Political thing often promoted by the abhorrent. "Every word spoken in Irish is a nail toward a united Ireland" - to even consider such a term with what people speak is mad in my view and whatever this Irish is should be opposed. If these Shinners and republicans hijack their language then the language enthusiasts know where the remedy needs applied, not with those put off it by these people.

[nifan]

In Northern Ireland what percentage of those promoting the language are of the gobshite / Political division type though?

No idea, and id suggest you have no idea what most Irish language promotion a lot of people not in the public eye for politics would say.

If a politician (of any persuasion) spouts off about the irish language it is highly likely that it will make the media than if someone tries to promote it.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

I feel that a lot of British Irishmen lose out on Irish culture because the Irishness that is dominant has been highly Politicised which has the effect of excluding people from it. There is no doubt about that in my mind.  Is that intolerance or bogotry?  It possibly, even probably, has led to a prejudice in me against things "Irish" because the dominant thread in Irish culture appears to be anti-Brit. Is that right? I would argue ye, but it may possibly not be but that is the perception.  It doesn't mean that I am any less Irish in my mind though, but I just can't identify with that sort of Irishness and don't like it being presented as Irish. I think there is a whole pile more to being Irish than the narrow version that this board subscribes to.  Now, the questions and the type of discussion that Jim Murphy is conducting is reasonable, interesting, and informative. However, it isn't for this thread.  What I don't get is that so many people in Ireland have a British culture and have contributed to British culture, country and Army for hundreds of years.  Why is it a surprise now that Irish people are doing this at the moment? The criticism that I have heard has been from the anti-Brit brigade of Ireland so that's to be expected, but others?

Whether the points I made are relevant to the thread or not is a moot point.  There were in direct answer to a post you made and deserve answer.

Either way you have changed your point from first post to last by moving from a position of mocking Irish culture to claiming to be excluded from it due to various reasons.

I would suggest if you want to engage in "reasonable, interesting and informative" debate you would select something akin to the latter position so we could look at those reasons that contribute to your alienation, rather than having to deal with blanket insults.

And as for the actual thread started.  The title of the original article is a nonsense by your reasoning.  If the Irish were always joining the British Army "for hundreds of years" then the current climate is no different really and doesn't deserve comment.  As for Sinn Féin/republicans being unhappy about it: what do you expect given their political outlook?

/Jim.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

In Northern Ireland what percentage of those promoting the language are of the gobshite / Political division type though? That's before we discuss do we actually even need it for those that just like it? My view on the latter is yes but don't spend disproportionate public funds on it, my view on the former is that it is a Political thing often promoted by the abhorrent. "Every word spoken in Irish is a nail toward a united Ireland" - to even consider such a term with what people speak is mad in my view and whatever this Irish is should be opposed. If these Shinners and republicans hijack their language then the language enthusiasts know where the remedy needs applied, not with those put off it by these people.

So the point moves from "Irish is a language cobbled together for political purposes" to "The Irish language has been hijacked for political purposes".   

I reiterate if you started with the latter viewpoint you would not have alienated a vast swathe of people who might actually have been willing to discuss the latter.

/Jim.