BLOODY SUNDAY VICTIMS REMEMBERED

[armaghniac]

I definitely dont want to be persevered as having any sort of "West Brit attitude".

Why have one then?

(I dont want to start a political debate!

Why start talking about the first world war then.

[Gnevin]

A shocking act by the so called legitimate forces of the state at the time and rightfully remembered

[AbbeySider]

I definitely dont want to be persevered as having any sort of "West Brit attitude".

Why have one then?

I dont actually. Your completely missing the point.

(I dont want to start a political debate!

Why start talking about the first world war then.

because Canalman mentioned it first

Seems ok though for "Official Ireland" to pine away big time maudlinstyle about the British Army dead in WW1 for some reason.

BTW im leaving the thread in case more people try to spill over into a political debate and the original message by Teachtaire is lost.
PM me if you want to continue a debate.

[Zapatista]

I would like to see more than the Rosery being said as a memorial to the above. A monument and remembrance commemoration would be more in line. 

That wouldn't sit to well with a State who are trying to hide what really happened in theDUblin and Monaghan bombings never mind killings 88 years ago.

[Orior]

Does anyone knoiw anything about the actual match? Was it in the league? How many attended etc?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Does anyone knoiw anything about the actual match? Was it in the league? How many attended etc?

It was a 'Great Challenge Match' Orior, and there were about 10,000 at it.

Report Here

[Sean3]

As far as I can recall there was another incident during the Munster championship that year where crown forces invaded the pitch during the match (think it was Clare & Tipp) although there was nobody hurt. I've pasted a few excerpts from the newspapers of the time

The Irish Times Monday 22nd November 1920
DREADFUL SERIES OF MURDERS IN DUBLIN

CONCERTED ATTACKS ON OFFICERS OF HIS MAJESTY'S FORCES

FOURTEEN SHOT DEAD AND MANY OTHERS WOUNDED

WILD SCENES AT GAELIC FOOTBALL MATCH

Yesterday morning there was enacted in Dublin a series of crimes unparalleled in the history of the city. As a result, fourteen members of His Majesty's Forces were murdered in their houses, and a number of others seriously wounded.

The attacks, which were apparently preconcerted, in every case occurred at the same hour. At nine o'clock in the morning the houses and hotels where these officers resided were entered by civilian bands. Most of the officers were in their bedrooms; some were dressed and ready to go to breakfast.

At least twelve were shot dead in this way, while two auxiliary police officers who were on their way to procure assistance were set upon and taken into a private house, where in a back garden they were shot dead. The official report indicates that most of these men were in some way connected with the administration of the law.

Later in the day, while a Gaelic football match was being played at Croke Park Jones's Road, where many thousands of people were assembled, Forces of the Crown arrived, with the object of searching for perpetrators of the crimes of the morning. According to the official report, these forces were instantly fired on by pickets of civilians guarding the grounds, and the Crown Forces immediately replied.

The result of this action was a violent stampede amongst the spectators and more firing, in the course of which it is estimated that ten persons were killed and upward of fifty wounded. In addition to those wounded by gunfire, many suffered from injuries received in the stampede.




The Freeman's Journal Monday 22nd November 1920
AMRITZAR REPEATED IN DUBLIN

ARMED FORCES OF THE CROWN KILL PLAYER
AND SPECTATORS IN CROKE PARK

AGONISING SCENES ON FOOTBALL FIELD

ELEVEN OR TWELVE PERSONS, INCLUDING A WOMAN, KILLED,
AND FROM EIGHTY TO ONE HUNDRED WOUNDED

Scenes of bloodshed on a football field, unparalleled in the history of the country, were enacted at Croke Park yesterday by armed forces of the Crown.

Almost 15,000 spectators had gathered to witness a football match between Tipperary and Dublin, when suddenly, the game being in progress, shots rang out, fired by the armed forces, and Michael Hogan, a prominent member of the Tipperary team, fell dead, shot through the mouth. Many of the onlookers were also seen to fall, dead or wounded. A woman is amongst the killed.

The casualty list, the extent of which has not been definitely ascertained, is a long one. It is estimated that eleven or twelve persons are dead, and from 80 to 100 wounded, in varying degrees of seriousness.

The armed forces, according to many of the onlookers, gave no warning to the spectators to disperse, beyond a preliminary volley of shots in the air. Then the bullets came as thick as hail, dealing out death in their swift passage; a wild scene of panic ensued, and women and children were knocked down and walked on.

A priest, who was a spectator of the tragic occurrence, says, 'I found poor Hogan lying on his back in a pool of blood. His feet were on the playing pitch and his body on the gravel walk.'

The Dublin Castle official report, which gives the number of dead at about 10 and the number of wounded and injured about 54, states 'it was believed that a number of gunmen came up today under the guise of wishing to attend the Gaelic football match between Dublin and Tipperary, but that their real motive was to take part in the series of murderous outrages which took place in Dublin this morning.'

Terrible scenes took place during the Tipperary and Dublin match at Jones's Road yesterday.

The match opened at 2.45, and the stands and grounds were crowded with spectators, numbering between 10,000 and 15,000. At about 3.10 about 12 lorries containing armed forces of the Crown arrived. It is alleged that the grounds were dominated from four points. Machine guns placed on the railway which traverses the end of the field and both gates leading from Jones's Road were forced by the raiders. It is stated the gate money was seized.

As the raiders entered the ground they immediately opened fire, first into the air and then at the crowd.

The armed forces, according to many present, gave no warning to the spectators to disperse beyond the preliminary volley in the air.

A general stampede followed, men, women and children rushed wildly for shelter. Michael Hogan, a well known Tipperary player, was shot dead through the mouth and many people were wounded or injured in the stampede.



The Irish Times Wednesday 24th November 1920
THE CROKE PARK SHOOTING
______________

WHY THE POLICE FIRED
_____________

GUN-MEN ON THE FIELD
_____________

A PRECONCERTED SIGNAL
_____________

STATEMENT BY SIR HAMAR GREENWOOD
In the House of Commons yesterday Lieut-Commander Kenworthy asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he had any further information with regard to the killing and wounding of about 80 civilians, including women and children, at Croke Park, Dublin football ground on Sunday last; how many volleys were fired into the crowd; how long the firing continued and whether any inquiry would be held, and by whom.

Sir Hamar Greenwood – 'The following account has been compiled from reports of the police and military:- The round-up and search was carried out by the authorities according to a preconcerted plan, with the object of securing Sinn Fein gunmen who had taken part in the assassinations that morning of fourteen British officers and who, in some cases, were believed to have come into Dublin under cover of attending the match in the afternoon. Events in the football ground go to show that this belief was well founded and that a considerable number among the football crowd were carrying arms on their persons. That was proved beyond doubt by their efforts to escape, which had fatal consequences to a number of innocent people.'

'The police were fired upon from two corners of the field. Simultaneously men rose from their places on the grand stand and fired three quick shots with revolvers into the air. Of this there is indisputable evidence. It seems quite clear that these shots were a prearranged signal as a warning to a certain section of the crowd. A stampede was caused, not alone by the firing, but also by the rush of men seeking to make their escape from the field... Meanwhile a number of armed pickets outside policed, no doubt, by gunmen making their escape from inside, were maintaining a fire in the direction of the police who returned it. The fire did not last more than three minutes. About 30 revolvers, thrown away by men who formed part of the spectators, were picked of the ground. Twelve people lost their lives, eleven were injured seriously enough to warrant their detention in hospital and about 50 persons sustained light injuries. The responsibility rests entirely on those assassins whose existence is a constant menace to all law-abiding people. (Cheers)

[Orior]

This just underlines the issue i have with poppies- inextricably linked to british forces which includes the black and tans

[magpie seanie]

The wonderful "paper of record" printed some lies in those articles!

[zoyler]

In fairness the IT of today os not the same as it was 90 years ago! 
As some one whose grandfather served in WW1 the words of the Foggy Dew always resonate -

O would they died by Pearses side or had fought with DeValera/Cathal Brigha(first thing on the agenda is always the split!) then their graves we would keep where the Fenians sleep neath the shroud of the foggy sew.

[Zapatista]

In fairness the IT of today os not the same as it was 90 years ago! 

It makes you wonder what is really happening in Iraq and Afganistan though.

[armaghniac]

O would they died by Pearses side or had fought with DeValera/Cathal Brigha(first thing on the agenda is always the split!) then their graves we would keep where the Fenians sleep neath the shroud of the foggy sew.

De Valera did not split with Cathal Brugha, who is most often mentioned in the song.

Brugha's daughter's book is a good read, by the way, for anyone seeking an human interest/historical book for the Xmas.

[zoyler]

I know there was no split between Brugha & Dev - I was referring to our general willingness to have spilts and the way there are two versions of the song!

[antoinse]

Teachtaire - a great thread and one that should not be lost on us. Those that were murdered in our name and those that came after them gave us a wonderful legacy. We should remember them all and  I would suggest that all those that read your thread take a minute out and pay due respects to those great people.

[Hardy]

I always think The Foggy Dew should be Meath's song - anything but that shite "Beautiful Mead". It always brings up images for me of the Meath fotballers and supporters converging on Croke Park to do down the Dubs.

"And from the plains of Royal Meath strong men came hurrying through ..."