Voters may approve new Lisbon Treaty, poll reveals

[Zapatista]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1117/1226700659487.html

A SECOND referendum on the Lisbon Treaty has a chance of being carried, according to the Irish Times/TNS mrbi poll which shows a swing to the Yes side since the referendum defeat last June.

The poll shows a change in public attitudes since June with 43 per cent now saying they would vote Yes, 39 per cent No and 18 per cent having no opinion.

[Gnevin]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2008/1117/1226700659487.html

A SECOND referendum on the Lisbon Treaty has a chance of being carried, according to the Irish Times/TNS mrbi poll which shows a swing to the Yes side since the referendum defeat last June.

The poll shows a change in public attitudes since June with 43 per cent now saying they would vote Yes, 39 per cent No and 18 per cent having no opinion.

Well the last No vote won us so much !

[Zapatista]

Well the last No vote won us so much !

I don't get it?

[mylestheslasher]

I'd vote no to unhold the democratic decision of the people. You can't keep re-running a referendum until you get the result you want.

[Billys Boots]

I'd vote no to unhold the democratic decision of the people.

What's the point of referenda if people won't vote on the substantive issue - it's not a forum for expressing dissatisfaction with something entirely unrelated.

[Zapatista]

What's the point of referenda if people won't vote on the substantive issue - it's not a forum for expressing dissatisfaction with something entirely unrelated.

Such as?

[mylestheslasher]

I'd vote no to unhold the democratic decision of the people.

What's the point of referenda if people won't vote on the substantive issue - it's not a forum for expressing dissatisfaction with something entirely unrelated.

And you know that for a fact! Are you a mind reader? Would there be a re-run if the vote had narrowly been carried but opinion polls showed that some voters just voted yes because their party told them to and therefore did not understand the "substantive issue".

[Hound]

I'd vote no to unhold the democratic decision of the people. You can't keep re-running a referendum until you get the result you want.

But you're not re-running the same referendum. A lot of people said they voted No, because they were worried about Tax, Abortion or Conscription. Now it has been clairfied that these will not be affected. Lisbon I was not acceptable to the majority. Its not in the least bit undemocratic to try and find out if Lisbon II will be acceptable.

[AZOffaly]

I think the point is that if the referendum is re-run with amendments to deal with the major issues people seemed to have with the last poll, for example with safeguards for the EU Commissioner, neutrality, abortion and taxation, then the referendum should be voted on, on it's own merits.

Surely that would be a fine example of democracy. People say no. Goverment studies why. People say why. Government proposes a new referendum with the main concerns addressed.

That's the way it's supposed to work.

Just voting no again, for the sake of sticking up two fingers at the government, would not seem to be very productive.

Vote No if you are still unhappy with the detail, by all means, but don't vote no just because you are being asked to vote on an amended failed proposal.

[Gnevin]

Well the last No vote won us so much !

I don't get it?

The no side promised us the sun, moon and stars would be delivered with a No. They achieved nothing since and the only way will get any concessions is with Lisbon Mark 2

[his holiness nb]

I dont see the issue, its not the same treaty we would be voting for and the issues which prevented people from voting yes due to lack of info would be clarified.

I dont know how many people who voted no did so because they didnt understand it. Surely its only fair to clarify the issues to these people so they can make an informed decision, which countless people admit they did not do at the time of the last vote?

Yes the people said no, and that is to be respected, thats why if the same treaty with the same info was being suggested the poll would still be in favour of the no side. But this isnt the case.

On a side note I see Libertas are against clarfying the issues so people can make an informed vote.
Quite clear that they think that if the fears that were put into peoples heads last time round are clarified as downright lies, then they might lose this time round.

[Mentalman]

If a Lisbon II referendum does deal with most people's concerns significently then fair enough, that's as should be - as AZ says we'd be in a poor situation if every proposition in life, once rejected, was abandoned, rather than seeking a compromise.

If there aren't significent differences then I think it would be pretty insulting to the electorate, and given the current climate would be rejected by people making protest votes rather than dealing with the substantive issue - I can't see many voting for it becuase their party tells them to right now.

What I would say is let's see if those concerns are dealt with before making our own minds up - right now there isn't even a proposition.

[Zapatista]

But you're not re-running the same referendum. A lot of people said they voted No, because they were worried about Tax, Abortion or Conscription. Now it has been clairfied that these will not be affected. Lisbon I was not acceptable to the majority. Its not in the least bit undemocratic to try and find out if Lisbon II will be acceptable.

People voted no for many reasons. I don't believe the reasons given are the reasons people voted No. If you asked me directly was I concerned that Lisbon would effect corp tax I would have said yes. That was not why I voted No though. I wonder how many were asked if they were concerned that the Lisbon mandated Ireland to increase military spending, If they were concerned about giving more Power to Europe or that the competition laws would effect public services?

The Yes side in the campaign latched onto the abortion thing during the last campaign. Some looney from coir said it would legalise abortion and the Yes campaign brought it up at every debate that the No side were all liars. The Yes side played this card everytime the were in public which worked against them as it only hightend fears. It was one of the few areas they seemed confident and it almost became their only argument. Must of the No side said it wouldn't effect abortion. Now we have them saying it was why referendum was lost There are many people in Ireland who would support abortion yet no one asked did they vote yes in the hope the EU would legalise abortion.

If there is another referendum the Yes side will take the debate away from the treaty again. They make it about our attitude to the EU and the electorate in general as they have no way of winning a debate about the merits of the treaty. They will say we voted on something other than the treaty and we were wrong to do that.

The treaty was put to the people not a Government satisfaction poll. The people voted on the treaty.

[Zapatista]

The no side promised us the sun, moon and stars would be delivered with a No. They achieved nothing since and the only way will get any concessions is with Lisbon Mark 2

What were the promises? What haven't they achieved?

[AZOffaly]

I agree with most of that Zap, I thought the Yes side ran an almost comically inept campaign, as if it were going to be passed simply because Cowen had huge popularity at the time.

*But* if there is a new proposal, with significant changes in those areas which seem to be the most contentious, such as the Irish EU Comissioner being retained, then it's a worthwhile debate again.

Hopefully this time the Yes side will be able to deal with issues thrown up. If they aren't then it deserves to fail again, on it's own merits.