And the Red Poppies Dance

[Rossfan]

Am I reading Nevin's and Tankie's posts right -
The Irish people who fought in the Brit Army in World War One were fighting for Ireland and Irish Freedom and thanks to them we are free today??
I must have been out of school the day they were doing the bit in the history Book where the Germans took over Ireland?

There's a few so and sos all over the Ros Herald this week dressed up in poppies remembering the Connaught Rangers. Surely they could have done it without the Effin Poppies. When are they going to commemorate Private Daly who was executed by the Brits in India because he protested about the Black/Tan atrocities?
Remeber lads the poppy commemorates them cnuts(B/Tans) too as well as the Paras who murdered Irish people in Derry.
Put  ;)that in ye're revisionist pipes !!

[Zapatista]

Let's face it, Ireland was on course for home rule within the commonwealth until Easter 1916.

Quite wrong, totally wrong, in fact.

Really, how so?

We have been on course for Independance for over 800 years. It'll be any day now I expect.

[Gnevin]

Am I reading Nevin's and Tankie's posts right -
The Irish people who fought in the Brit Army in World War One were fighting for Ireland and Irish Freedom and thanks to them we are free today??
I must have been out of school the day they were doing the bit in the history Book where the Germans took over Ireland?

There's a few so and sos all over the Ros Herald this week dressed up in poppies remembering the Connaught Rangers. Surely they could have done it without the Effin Poppies. When are they going to commemorate Private Daly who was executed by the Brits in India because he protested about the Black/Tan atrocities?
Remeber lads the poppy commemorates them cnuts(B/Tans) too as well as the Paras who murdered Irish people in Derry.
Put  ;)that in ye're revisionist pipes !!

I very much doubt any of the Tans where Irish or the Paras in Derry. This about honouring our Irish dead not British

[Gnevin]

It's strange that tankie and gnevin seem more worried about remembering Irish men fighting for foreign armies than they do remembering the Irish men fighting for the freedom they enjoy today.

Where did you pull that load of bullshit out of ?

[Tankie]

It's strange that tankie and gnevin seem more worried about remembering Irish men fighting for foreign armies than they do remembering the Irish men fighting for the freedom they enjoy today.

Who do i forget POG? I just believe that these men should be remembered like all of Irelands fallen!

[Mentalman]

Let's face it, Ireland was on course for home rule within the commonwealth until Easter 1916.

Quite wrong, totally wrong, in fact.

Really, how so?

We have been on course for Independance for over 800 years. It'll be any day now I expect.

Not sure what that point has to do with my original one Zap? I only sought to inject a bit of realism. Prior to the Easter Rising Ireland had seemed to be on the path to something akin to dominion status within the commonwealth. The Rising itself, as a military exercise, was a disaster from beginning to end. As a PR exercise it was very damaging to Republicanism initially, with most commentary being along the lines that those who were told they were fighting for Irish self determination in WWI had been stabbed in the back. That was until the executions, which changed everything utterly, and hardened public opinion against Britain again, proving that Irishmen could not expect justice. With that also the attitude to those fighting on the front changed, but they were still comemerated by the state into the 30's, when the very deliberate acts to step out from Britain's shadow by Dev meant we chose to green our state apparatus - literally in some cases (repainting British postboxes)

It's just too easy from our stand point in history to believe the Rising was the rebirth of a nation, and the population were behind it on masse. If anything it was the executions afterwards.

As for independence, I don't think I made any points about that. I think most contributors here are of a similar mindset about that.

[Zapatista]

My point was that you can't trust the Brits to give anything. If the Brits thought it was in their interest to give home rule we would have had it. They wanted to partition the country and thats what they did. Unionism played a bigger part in home rule/partition than the rising did. Irish men were duped into fighting for Britain.

[Tankie]

My point was that you can't trust the Brits to give anything. If the Brits thought it was in their interest to give home rule we would have had it. They wanted to partition the country and thats what they did. Unionism played a bigger part in home rule/partition than the rising did. Irish men were duped into fighting for Britain.

lads this tread aint about trusting the Brits, its simply about Irish men that went out to fight for Ireland in WWI. The fact you say some of these were gighting for home rule it just shows the love for their country!

[magpie seanie]

As a PR exercise it was very damaging to Republicanism initially, with most commentary being along the lines that those who were told they were fighting for Irish self determination in WWI had been stabbed in the back.

That commentary was largely British as I'm fairly sure there weren't too many nationalist minded media outlets around that time. If the lads fighting in WWI were actually fighting for Irish Freedom as they believed they were then they would have had no issue with this. The problem was they were conned. It was all about preserving Britain's postion in the world.

These men should be remembered but not with the poppy. They were there for different reasons and all the more tragically they had been duped.

[Tankie]

As a PR exercise it was very damaging to Republicanism initially, with most commentary being along the lines that those who were told they were fighting for Irish self determination in WWI had been stabbed in the back.

That commentary was largely British as I'm fairly sure there weren't too many nationalist minded media outlets around that time. If the lads fighting in WWI were actually fighting for Irish Freedom as they believed they were then they would have had no issue with this. The problem was they were conned. It was all about preserving Britain's postion in the world.

These men should be remembered but not with the poppy. They were there for different reasons and all the more tragically they had been duped.

Nobody is really suggesting wearing a poppy, I think the main thing is that they are remembered properly which i dont believe they are at the moment.

[Canalman]

Tankie,
There have been loads of documentaries and pages of newspaper coverage in the last few weeks about the Irish in WW1. Unfortunately imo they have been for too fawning and uncritical and penned/directed by individuals with a political axe to grind against Irish Nationalism. To say they have been ignored is plain wrong.
Saw 2 great doc's last week, one about WW1 Consciencious Objectors and another about the casualties on Armistice Day .Both were devoid of political spin and absolutely magnificent. RTÉ's  coverage imo is way behind such gems.

Behind every WW1 "commemoration" in Ireland is a not too subtle dig at Irish Nationalism and the very brave and pitifully armed Irishmen who took on the British Empire in the early part of the 20th century. The "official Ireland" line is that put forward by Dungan/Myers/Gay Byrne etc and imo is legitimately entitled to be critiqued.

[red hander]

S'pose it's no surprise that it's jackeens arguing the point on here ... they'll be saying soon it's time for a new royal visit to what was the second city of the empire the last time some parasite from buckingham palace was paraded thru the streets there to accept the thanks of loyal dubliners for her hugely generous contribution to the famine fund 35 years earlier ... time to get them wee red, white abd blue flags outta the bottom drawers boys

Redhander, please for the love of god, dont be fooled into thinking Tankie and Gnevins views are that of the average Dubliner. Theres a very noisy minority in the Myers mould alright, but despite their kicking and screaming, they are the minority.

No probs ... i know and appreciate the contribution many brave dubs played in the fight for Irish freedom ... a point a very good friend of mine from Ballymun never tires of reminding me of!

[Gnevin]

Behind every WW1 "commemoration" in Ireland is a not too subtle dig at Irish Nationalism and the very brave and pitifully armed Irishmen who took on the British Empire in the early part of the 20th century. The "official Ireland" line is that put forward by Dungan/Myers/Gay Byrne etc and imo is legitimately entitled to be critiqued.

So your saying you 90 years after the event ,you still expect people to pick sides. What dig are your referring too, I think your bending over backwards to be offended .

[Main Street]

Nobody is really suggesting wearing a poppy, I think the main thing is that they are remembered properly which i dont believe they are at the moment.

Define what you mean by properly?
Is it not being remembered? You give me the impression of someone who did not have a clue about the event until he turned on the tv.
The standard of history in Dublin schools is way behind what you'd get in a national school in Ulster.
Or how did you forget it all so fast?

We were taught the reasons why so many Irish joined the British Army.
No I never heard that that allied victory in WWI saved democracy or that there was actually a good side involved.
No we did not get taught about anything anecdotal or acts of heroism by Irish soldiers, just the brainless slaughter.
Many soldiers who did make it home joined the IRA.

Everything that was predicted by republicans who stayed at home, came to pass.
The significant events in our history happened at home. They are the events that have shaped our history.
Once a war on foreign fields drifts out of the living memory it shifts more into the history page memory and tv documentaries.

It would be nice to have a documentary about the Irish who fought in the US civil war and the Fenian invasion of Canada.
Maybe one on the Fenian who invented the submarine for the cause of Irish freedom.

[Gnevin]

Nobody is really suggesting wearing a poppy, I think the main thing is that they are remembered properly which i dont believe they are at the moment.

Define what you mean by properly?
Is it not being remembered? You give me the impression of someone who did not have a clue about the event until he turned on the tv.
The standard of history in Dublin schools is way behind what you'd get in a national school in Ulster.
Or how did you forget it all so fast?

Thus why the Ulster poster didn't know his ass from his elbow in relation too the 3rd home rules bill. You'll find i posted the flag of Batallón de San Patrici
in the other thread .

We were taught the reasons why so many Irish joined the British Army.
No I never heard that that allied victory in WWI saved democracy or that there was actually a good side involved.
No we did not get taught about anything anecdotal or acts of heroism by Irish soldiers, just the brainless slaughter.
Many soldiers who did make it home joined the IRA.

Are you implying we didn't ? I'd love to hear the reasons you where taught.