And the Red Poppies Dance

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

you really are as bad as Myers when it comes to giving your view. These men fought for Ireland just like the men of 1916! you can like it to fighting for the british all you want but it wont change the facts that these men also gave their lives for Ireland as true Irish men.

Give Prussia back to the Germans I say (it's not like Germany is that big of a nation)!

[Mentalman]

Let's face it, Ireland was on course for home rule within the commonwealth until Easter 1916.

Quite wrong, totally wrong, in fact.

Really, how so?

The Third Irish Home Rule Bill, which Asquith had tabled before the outbreak or WWI, was far from assured successful passage through Parliament (and there was no way the Lords were going to let it through, and witness the landing of a massive amount of weapons at Larne, in 1914, by the UVF with the collusion and connivance of the British forces ). Lloyd-George, who succeeded him in 1916, was openly hostile to the whole idea.

I don't think that constitutes me being totally wrong - the prevailing feeling at the time was for the parlimentary path towards home rule, but as events overtook that I guess we'll never know for sure. You'd have to admit it was the executions, rather than the rising itself, that set the scene for what would become the War of Independence? What followed that, with the Irish free State, was de facto home rule.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

You'd have to admit it was the executions, rather than the rising itself, that set the scene for what would become the War of Independence? What followed that, with the Irish free State, was de facto home rule.

Yes, it was Britain's blood-letting that swung public opinion inexorably against them. And it was partial de facto Home Rule.

[Gnevin]

Let's face it, Ireland was on course for home rule within the commonwealth until Easter 1916.

Quite wrong, totally wrong, in fact.

Really, how so?

The Third Irish Home Rule Bill, which Asquith had tabled before the outbreak or WWI, was far from assured successful passage through Parliament (and there was no way the Lords were going to let it through, and witness the landing of a massive amount of weapons at Larne, in 1914, by the UVF with the collusion and connivance of the British forces ). Lloyd-George, who succeeded him in 1916, was openly hostile to the whole idea.

The Bill has passed and was postponed due the the war.

House of Commons passed?      Yes
House of Lords Passed?      No but overruled by Parliament Act
Royal Assent?      Yes
If defeated
Which House      House of Lords 3 times (overruled)
Which stage      -
Final vote      -
Date      1912, 1913, 1914 (overruled)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Home_Rule_Act#Attempted_implementation

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

The Bill has passed and was postponed due the the war.

House of Commons passed?      Yes
House of Lords Passed?      No but overruled by Parliament Act
Royal Assent?      Yes
If defeated
Which House      House of Lords 3 times (overruled)
Which stage      -
Final vote      -
Date      1912, 1913, 1914 (overruled)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Home_Rule_Act#Attempted_implementation

Well, given how Britain had adhered religiously to her promises in the seven centuries of her (mis)rule in Ireland before, there's no doubt we could have had absolute cast-iron faith in her latest promise in 1916 (not) 

Connolly, Pearse, Ceannt, Mc Donagh, Mc Dermott, Clarke, Plunkett, Collins, etc., were of the time, and had the exact measure of the bona fides of perfidious Albion. I know where my faith would have lain.

[Gnevin]

The Bill has passed and was postponed due the the war.

House of Commons passed?      Yes
House of Lords Passed?      No but overruled by Parliament Act
Royal Assent?      Yes
If defeated
Which House      House of Lords 3 times (overruled)
Which stage      -
Final vote      -
Date      1912, 1913, 1914 (overruled)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Home_Rule_Act#Attempted_implementation

Well, given how Britain had adhered religiously to her promises in the seven centuries of her (mis)rule in Ireland before, there's no doubt we could have had absolute cast-iron faith in her latest promise in 1916 (not) 

Connolly, Pearse, Ceannt, Mc Donagh, Mc Dermott, Clarke, Plunkett, Collins, etc., were of the time, and had the exact measure of the bona fides of perfidious Albion. I know where my faith would have lain.

So your admit your where wrong , that's very big of you .

[his holiness nb]

S'pose it's no surprise that it's jackeens arguing the point on here ... they'll be saying soon it's time for a new royal visit to what was the second city of the empire the last time some parasite from buckingham palace was paraded thru the streets there to accept the thanks of loyal dubliners for her hugely generous contribution to the famine fund 35 years earlier ... time to get them wee red, white abd blue flags outta the bottom drawers boys

Redhander, please for the love of god, dont be fooled into thinking Tankie and Gnevins views are that of the average Dubliner. Theres a very noisy minority in the Myers mould alright, but despite their kicking and screaming, they are the minority.

[Canalman]

No guarantee at all that this Home Rule Bill would be enacted at all. An election which returned the Conservatives would at least  have meant the rejigging if not the downright shelving of the bill, which was never enacted. Another "myth" to be debunked is this Home Rule "was on the Statute Books" anyway which the WW1 apologists regularly roll out. However, I am willing to concede that this Bill was cunningly framed as a sop to Nationalists with plenty of wriggleroom  for Unionism which can be interpereted any way you like. (An old Anglo ploy )

By the way lads, not all the Dubs are agreing with G Nevin and the others.

A very interesting thread here, lets hope it doesn't sink into personal abuse or anti Dublinism as usual.

Finally, imo there is no way a Republic could have been formed as soon as it was or the magnificent Bunreacht na hÉireann enacted under the 1913 Home Rule bill.

[magickingdom]

the british armys history is littered with murder and mayham around the world, the british empire was build by brute force and appalling crimes against humanity with plenty of irish up to their necks in it and they 'win' ww1 and ww2 on the backs of the yanks and i'm supposed to remember with fondness the irishmen that died fighting with them? i feel sorry they died and they were as irish as the liffey but i dont particularly care to be honest. i have no problem with other people remembering them with pride but it means very little to me. as for national commemorations the proper place for that imo is in britian..

[milltown row]

the british armys history is littered with murder and mayham around the world, the british empire was build by brute force and appalling crimes against humanity with plenty of irish up to their necks in it and they 'win' ww1 and ww2 on the backs of the yanks and i'm supposed to remember with fondness the irishmen that died fighting with them? i feel sorry they died and they were as irish as the liffey but i dont particularly care to be honest. i have no problem with other people remembering them with pride but it means very little to me. as for national commemorations the proper place for that imo is in britian..

this is britian
the Romans went about murdering but we dont hate the Italians

[magickingdom]

the british armys history is littered with murder and mayham around the world, the british empire was build by brute force and appalling crimes against humanity with plenty of irish up to their necks in it and they 'win' ww1 and ww2 on the backs of the yanks and i'm supposed to remember with fondness the irishmen that died fighting with them? i feel sorry they died and they were as irish as the liffey but i dont particularly care to be honest. i have no problem with other people remembering them with pride but it means very little to me. as for national commemorations the proper place for that imo is in britian..

this is britian
the Romans went about murdering but we dont hate the Italians

the italians are too good looking to hate

[milltown row]

yeah the Fu*kers did it with style

[pintsofguinness]

It's strange that tankie and gnevin seem more worried about remembering Irish men fighting for foreign armies than they do remembering the Irish men fighting for the freedom they enjoy today.

[milltown row]

are you a slave POG? very dramatic.

[saffron sam2]

Whilst the debate rages on, here is some music to listen to.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp-OlpffDWw

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nDit0DyItsM