vegetarians

[Puckoon]

I'd put PETA on a par with the NRA. Just for the record.

[omaghjoe]

I'll take the advice of nutrition experts on this one.

Like this one 
http://www.repubblica.it/salute/alimentazione/2016/08/08/news/vietare_dieta_vegana_ai_figli_l_esperto_espone_a_carenze_e_a_rischi_-145616570/
The Italian Society of Food Science rejecting Savino's  (the reactionary Italian populist politician) assertions, with president Andrea Ghiselli telling La Repubblica that diets containing excessive sugar and fat were of greater concern than the risks of deficiency of a vegan diet.

Wouldn't disagree with that but rather amazingly your leaving out the main point of the article which is that Vegan diets are not suitable for children. 

The nutrition experts also tell us that they are not suitable for adults either and the diet has to be supplemented.

The main point I was making was the expert rebuttal to the nonsense hysteria about the dangers of a vegan diet by one loony politician, a hysteria which you had subscribed to.

What politician is that now? Let me know so I follow him on twitter

The only thing I subscribe to is that a vegan diet is bad for children and not suitable for adults either without like the article said, which you posted.

Animal products have been our most basic food stuff for millennia taking them out of our diets unsurprisingly leads to nutritional problems

Or do you disagree with nutrition experts?

Dont get me wrong if your doing it for "ethical" reasons more power to ye but lets not try and hide behind this "better for health" thing.

Who's hiding??
The article I lnked, contained quotes from the  president of the Italian Society of Food Science, in order to pour mild scorn on your reference to the italian crime of veganism.
The rest of the article was not germane to that point.

However he did NOT say a vegan diet is bad for children or not suitable for adults as you have claimed.
He said the vegan diet for children CAN be  imbalanced,   it can be imbalanced which means it can be imbalanced  under certain circumstances.
He then says that a  risk of deficiency in a vegan diet is relatively easy to overcome with with the addition of natural foods and/or supplements.

He believes a balanced diet could be extracted from portions of  vegetables, yoghurts and fish.
That's his expert opinion.

I am not a practicing vegan, but if I were to impose a vegan diet on my children, either through my choice or their necessity, then a minimum amount of good research points to that a vegan can obtain a complete diet within the confines of a vegan diet.
The length of time you need to spend on that research (2 minutes for me)  would also depend on already acquired experience.
if I was so inclined to do that research, then it would be centered on the weight of evidence to support the choice. In other words, i want to try this or something like this, how can i make it work. There is no scientifically proven diet.
If you want to eat pork then the Pork Association will inform you that  eating porky the pig will do you the world of good and if you don't want to eat pork then PETA will inform you of just how good that choice is.

The article says a vegan diet exposes a child to deficiencies and these can be overcome by a professional, not by parents reading the internet. It would follow from that, that it would be unsafe to allow a child to be forced into a vegan diet by the general populace.

As you say there is no scientifically proved diet however something that is agreed upon is that the modern Western diet  is not good for our health and as a general rule the further back in time we go the better our diet gets. And it turns out we came from an almost exclusive meat diet. And when people replicate this diet today a whole multitude of diseases fade away like diabetes, obesity, auto immune diseases, allergys. It flies in the face of conventional wisdom that if you eat fat you'll get fat, but its not the case as our body knows what to do with it as we have been eating it for a long time. Carbs and sugar on the other hand are so rare in natural foods that our body craves and stores it.

[omaghjoe]

Consensus? Is that what governs whats correct or incorrect? (hooray for Brexit and soon to be pres Don they're correct choices cos their consensus  ) I dont know if the nutritionists have had a vote on it. Check it out and decide for yourself.

You do get the difference between a single report that doesn't have the support of the experts and a peer reviewed report that passes the test? You do see that don't you?

You do get the difference between an independent report and one funded by a vested interest? Hence the need for peer review and consensus?

You believe that despite meat getting consistently cheaper over the past 50 years its going to get more expensive?

I do.

You believe that with a growing world population, increasing aspiration in the developing world, a growing awareness of the environmental damage of turning over greater amounts of land to food production, greater awareness of the damage cause of the chemical tricks that support industrial farming that land will be used for the least efficient means of food production (in acreage terms) without an appropriate economic charge being applied to that land use?

Bring on your rationale?

Its still an appeal to popularity, do a bit of your own research and reach your own conclusions. Our spend your time finding out what the consensus diet is then, you will quickly find there's none, and that prior "consensus diets" brought a premature death to millions.

Slowing world population, and increased food market liberalisation should keep the market supply consistent. And yields should improve with a warmer wetter climate and higher C02 levels, and also with the more widespread use of improving agriculture methods. Overall these things should sustain food prices around their current level and will likely lower them.

[LCohen]

Consensus? Is that what governs whats correct or incorrect? (hooray for Brexit and soon to be pres Don they're correct choices cos their consensus  ) I dont know if the nutritionists have had a vote on it. Check it out and decide for yourself.

You do get the difference between a single report that doesn't have the support of the experts and a peer reviewed report that passes the test? You do see that don't you?

You do get the difference between an independent report and one funded by a vested interest? Hence the need for peer review and consensus?

You believe that despite meat getting consistently cheaper over the past 50 years its going to get more expensive?

I do.

You believe that with a growing world population, increasing aspiration in the developing world, a growing awareness of the environmental damage of turning over greater amounts of land to food production, greater awareness of the damage cause of the chemical tricks that support industrial farming that land will be used for the least efficient means of food production (in acreage terms) without an appropriate economic charge being applied to that land use?

Bring on your rationale?

Its still an appeal to popularity, do a bit of your own research and reach your own conclusions. Our spend your time finding out what the consensus diet is then, you will quickly find there's none, and that prior "consensus diets" brought a premature death to millions.

Slowing world population, and increased food market liberalisation should keep the market supply consistent. And yields should improve with a warmer wetter climate and higher C02 levels, and also with the more widespread use of improving agriculture methods. Overall these things should sustain food prices around their current level and will likely lower them.

Are you dismissing the whole idea of peer reviewing and of research that is supported by other research?

Tell me about the slowing world population? When will the world population fall? Surely that is the important thing? No reference to increased affluence and aspiration in the developing world?
Market liberalisation will keep the market supply consistent? Which foods and where?
Will planet earth be warmer and wetter? And more importantly will this to the right degree in the right location for food production? Important detail.

More importantly my point was the production of one type of food over another. Farmed meat is the least efficient form if food production in acreage terms. Tell me why you believe that differential in efficiency will not be factored into food pricing?

[omaghjoe]

Consensus? Is that what governs whats correct or incorrect? (hooray for Brexit and soon to be pres Don they're correct choices cos their consensus  ) I dont know if the nutritionists have had a vote on it. Check it out and decide for yourself.

You do get the difference between a single report that doesn't have the support of the experts and a peer reviewed report that passes the test? You do see that don't you?

You do get the difference between an independent report and one funded by a vested interest? Hence the need for peer review and consensus?

You believe that despite meat getting consistently cheaper over the past 50 years its going to get more expensive?

I do.

You believe that with a growing world population, increasing aspiration in the developing world, a growing awareness of the environmental damage of turning over greater amounts of land to food production, greater awareness of the damage cause of the chemical tricks that support industrial farming that land will be used for the least efficient means of food production (in acreage terms) without an appropriate economic charge being applied to that land use?

Bring on your rationale?

Its still an appeal to popularity, do a bit of your own research and reach your own conclusions. Our spend your time finding out what the consensus diet is then, you will quickly find there's none, and that prior "consensus diets" brought a premature death to millions.

Slowing world population, and increased food market liberalisation should keep the market supply consistent. And yields should improve with a warmer wetter climate and higher C02 levels, and also with the more widespread use of improving agriculture methods. Overall these things should sustain food prices around their current level and will likely lower them.

Are you dismissing the whole idea of peer reviewing and of research that is supported by other research?

Tell me about the slowing world population? When will the world population fall? Surely that is the important thing? No reference to increased affluence and aspiration in the developing world?
Market liberalisation will keep the market supply consistent? Which foods and where?
Will planet earth be warmer and wetter? And more importantly will this to the right degree in the right location for food production? Important detail.

More importantly my point was the production of one type of food over another. Farmed meat is the least efficient form if food production in acreage terms. Tell me why you believe that differential in efficiency will not be factored into food pricing?

This peer review thing is your little straw man Leonard, its about as relevant to this as my mention of Brexit. Hows your search for that consensus diet coming on?

Yeah the world population has been slowing for years, and during that time of rapid growth food has got cheaper.

As countries become more developed their production methods improve and become more efficent, this is also true for agriculture production.

All foods that are treated as commodity (so pretty much all foods) have had their markets liberalised and this looks set to continue unabated. Tho with Brexit, Trump and the rise of protectionism this could go into reverse. Also dont forget about all the land that it set aside each year

The global climate is set to become more favorable for crop growth, and new grazing pastures will likely become more viable in Australia, Sahel and Central Asia. In fact the high Co2 levels are already causing increased plant growth.

That differential is already worked into meat as its more expensive, that and the demand for it is higher.

Basically Leonard we dont know, but if I was a betting man I would follow the current trend and the conditions that created that trend look set to continue. Nothing you have mentioned would lead me to believe anything else. But its the future so who knows what could happen I was just asking you if you believe that meat will become economically nonviable in spite of the above?

By the way as Ive said before dont take my word for it on the paleo diet check it out for yourself

[Jell 0 Biafra]

I've cut out red meat and may go further. Have been challenged to do the whole of November on a vegan diet. Would like to but not sure I could do it. Anyone on here vegan?

This is a good book for handy recipes, Tonto

https://www.amazon.com/Quick-Fix-Vegan-Healthy-Homestyle-Minutes-ebook/dp/B005XXT0AK/ref=pd_sim_351_1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B005XXT0AK&pd_rd_r=9QN0A85KJ8ZG91GS3F48&pd_rd_w=RRtof&pd_rd_wg=7gqUy&psc=1&refRID=9QN0A85KJ8ZG91GS3F48

[tonto1888]

I've cut out red meat and may go further. Have been challenged to do the whole of November on a vegan diet. Would like to but not sure I could do it. Anyone on here vegan?

This is a good book for handy recipes, Tonto

https://www.amazon.com/Quick-Fix-Vegan-Healthy-Homestyle-Minutes-ebook/dp/B005XXT0AK/ref=pd_sim_351_1?ie=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B005XXT0AK&pd_rd_r=9QN0A85KJ8ZG91GS3F48&pd_rd_w=RRtof&pd_rd_wg=7gqUy&psc=1&refRID=9QN0A85KJ8ZG91GS3F48

cheers mate, i will see if i can get that

[Walter Cronc]

Consensus? Is that what governs whats correct or incorrect? (hooray for Brexit and soon to be pres Don they're correct choices cos their consensus  ) I dont know if the nutritionists have had a vote on it. Check it out and decide for yourself.

You do get the difference between a single report that doesn't have the support of the experts and a peer reviewed report that passes the test? You do see that don't you?

You do get the difference between an independent report and one funded by a vested interest? Hence the need for peer review and consensus?

You believe that despite meat getting consistently cheaper over the past 50 years its going to get more expensive?

I do.

You believe that with a growing world population, increasing aspiration in the developing world, a growing awareness of the environmental damage of turning over greater amounts of land to food production, greater awareness of the damage cause of the chemical tricks that support industrial farming that land will be used for the least efficient means of food production (in acreage terms) without an appropriate economic charge being applied to that land use?

Bring on your rationale?

Its still an appeal to popularity, do a bit of your own research and reach your own conclusions. Our spend your time finding out what the consensus diet is then, you will quickly find there's none, and that prior "consensus diets" brought a premature death to millions.

Slowing world population, and increased food market liberalisation should keep the market supply consistent. And yields should improve with a warmer wetter climate and higher C02 levels, and also with the more widespread use of improving agriculture methods. Overall these things should sustain food prices around their current level and will likely lower them.

Are you dismissing the whole idea of peer reviewing and of research that is supported by other research?

Tell me about the slowing world population? When will the world population fall? Surely that is the important thing? No reference to increased affluence and aspiration in the developing world?
Market liberalisation will keep the market supply consistent? Which foods and where?
Will planet earth be warmer and wetter? And more importantly will this to the right degree in the right location for food production? Important detail.

More importantly my point was the production of one type of food over another. Farmed meat is the least efficient form if food production in acreage terms. Tell me why you believe that differential in efficiency will not be factored into food pricing?

This peer review thing is your little straw man Leonard, its about as relevant to this as my mention of Brexit. Hows your search for that consensus diet coming on?

Yeah the world population has been slowing for years, and during that time of rapid growth food has got cheaper.

As countries become more developed their production methods improve and become more efficent, this is also true for agriculture production.

All foods that are treated as commodity (so pretty much all foods) have had their markets liberalised and this looks set to continue unabated. Tho with Brexit, Trump and the rise of protectionism this could go into reverse. Also dont forget about all the land that it set aside each year

The global climate is set to become more favorable for crop growth, and new grazing pastures will likely become more viable in Australia, Sahel and Central Asia. In fact the high Co2 levels are already causing increased plant growth.

That differential is already worked into meat as its more expensive, that and the demand for it is higher.

Basically Leonard we dont know, but if I was a betting man I would follow the current trend and the conditions that created that trend look set to continue. Nothing you have mentioned would lead me to believe anything else. But its the future so who knows what could happen I was just asking you if you believe that meat will become economically nonviable in spite of the above?

By the way as Ive said before dont take my word for it on the paleo diet check it out for yourself

That wee drought might have an impact

[omaghjoe]

Tonto  if your doing it for ethical reasons fair enough, but if you are doing it for health reasons have a read of this...

https://zerocarbzen.com/

I challenge you to go zerocarb for December and tell us which you find is best...

[tonto1888]

Tonto  if your doing it for ethical reasons fair enough, but if you are doing it for health reasons have a read of this...

https://zerocarbzen.com/

I challenge you to go zerocarb for December and tell us which you find is best...

not for health, Im fairly healthy although my diet does need tweaks. Itd be mostly for ethical reasons.
I am worried about protein, as I do a lot of weightlifting

[stew]

I'd put PETA on a par with the NRA. Just for the record.

You would be wrong to do so.