Sorry

[ONeill]

Which religion do yiz think God likes the best?

[muppet]

Which religion do yiz think God likes the best?

Money.

[Esmarelda]

So really your just agnostic then..... you actually dont know.

What did you actually believe on Free Will tho?

Consciousnesses is about the state of being aware, say Iceman pulls one of his UFC moves on what are you gonna feel? Pain! thats what!Now What is that actual feeling? IS it actually a physical thing or is it something else? If not then is anything truely physical at all since anything we think to be truely physical is only verified by sensory perception in the same way as pain is. But then suppose it is physical then where the feck is it?

Logic, Reason say in the case of maths... whats to say it is really correct? And if its only a concept of the human mind why does nature obey so many of its laws?

Yeah sometimes I hesitate to call myself atheist but then others tell me I am atheist because I believe there's no God whereas an agnostic has no concern to whether God exists or not. I don't mind which I am. I believe there's no God.

What I read on free will is that although we all make decisions your brain actually reacts to the circumstances and so you're not actually making the decision. I'm guessing that that's not what you're on about?

I'd have thought that pain isn't a physical thing but just a reaction in your brain to what has just happened to you. Haven't really thought about it.

What laws of nature are you talking about in relation to logic? I don't mind discussing this but I'm probably out of my depth and I think we've clearly moved on from the God discussion?

[Esmarelda]

Which religion do yiz think God likes the best?

Any of them. He has the same input to each. Zero.

[omaghjoe]

So really your just agnostic then..... you actually dont know.

What did you actually believe on Free Will tho?

Consciousnesses is about the state of being aware, say Iceman pulls one of his UFC moves on what are you gonna feel? Pain! thats what!Now What is that actual feeling? IS it actually a physical thing or is it something else? If not then is anything truely physical at all since anything we think to be truely physical is only verified by sensory perception in the same way as pain is. But then suppose it is physical then where the feck is it?

Logic, Reason say in the case of maths... whats to say it is really correct? And if its only a concept of the human mind why does nature obey so many of its laws?

Yeah sometimes I hesitate to call myself atheist but then others tell me I am atheist because I believe there's no God whereas an agnostic has no concern to whether God exists or not. I don't mind which I am. I believe there's no God.

What I read on free will is that although we all make decisions your brain actually reacts to the circumstances and so you're not actually making the decision. I'm guessing that that's not what you're on about?

I'd have thought that pain isn't a physical thing but just a reaction in your brain to what has just happened to you. Haven't really thought about it.

What laws of nature are you talking about in relation to logic? I don't mind discussing this but I'm probably out of my depth and I think we've clearly moved on from the God discussion?

Oh so you do actually BELIEVE there is no God, sorry I misread you earlier, so you have spent time actually considering this. What evidence are you using to justify that belief?

Yeah thats precisely what Im on about on free will, that our brain is making the decisions based on prior experience, sensory input and our makeup (DNA I suppose) and that those things are governed by the laws of nature. In essence that all our actions were predetermined by the laws of nature, whenever or however they were created. There are other outlooks as well but that would be the prevailing scientific one, however something appears to remain constant and that is when rational thought is applied to free will, more often than not it appears not to exist. So you say you live your life based on logic, would it not be illogical to believe that you have it and for that matter to even declare that you are living your life based on logic since the free will that would be require to allow you to apply that logic to make those decisions appears not to exist.

If pain is just brain activity then its something physical, but you believe its not is that correct? Ok then well then I will put the question to you again since pain is not physical then neither are other sensory inputs like sight so therefore is everything we see really real? Quantum physics which according to logic at least is the most all encompassing scientific theory with very little lose ends, tells us nothing is really real at least as we see it. But ironically even that field is using consciousness to verify its findings, so we cant be sure its accurate either.

The 4 fundamental laws of nature adhere to mathematics, although gravity is still refusing to be fully tied down. Theres at least two more that we know virtually nothing about. But in terms of the world that you and I know and experience, it has been pretty much fully explained by logic and mathematics. So a concept of the human mind can discover laws that govern everything we know, is that a coincidence or do the laws not actually exist at all and we have only convinced ourselves that they do.

My point is with these three things free will, consciousnesses and logic is that they are fundamental to our lives and our understanding yet outside of our minds there is no real evidence that they exist and are correct

[Esmarelda]

So really your just agnostic then..... you actually dont know.

What did you actually believe on Free Will tho?

Consciousnesses is about the state of being aware, say Iceman pulls one of his UFC moves on what are you gonna feel? Pain! thats what!Now What is that actual feeling? IS it actually a physical thing or is it something else? If not then is anything truely physical at all since anything we think to be truely physical is only verified by sensory perception in the same way as pain is. But then suppose it is physical then where the feck is it?

Logic, Reason say in the case of maths... whats to say it is really correct? And if its only a concept of the human mind why does nature obey so many of its laws?

Yeah sometimes I hesitate to call myself atheist but then others tell me I am atheist because I believe there's no God whereas an agnostic has no concern to whether God exists or not. I don't mind which I am. I believe there's no God.

What I read on free will is that although we all make decisions your brain actually reacts to the circumstances and so you're not actually making the decision. I'm guessing that that's not what you're on about?

I'd have thought that pain isn't a physical thing but just a reaction in your brain to what has just happened to you. Haven't really thought about it.

What laws of nature are you talking about in relation to logic? I don't mind discussing this but I'm probably out of my depth and I think we've clearly moved on from the God discussion?

Oh so you do actually BELIEVE there is no God, sorry I misread you earlier, so you have spent time actually considering this. What evidence are you using to justify that belief?

Yeah thats precisely what Im on about on free will, that our brain is making the decisions based on prior experience, sensory input and our makeup (DNA I suppose) and that those things are governed by the laws of nature. In essence that all our actions were predetermined by the laws of nature, whenever or however they were created. There are other outlooks as well but that would be the prevailing scientific one, however something appears to remain constant and that is when rational thought is applied to free will, more often than not it appears not to exist. So you say you live your life based on logic, would it not be illogical to believe that you have it and for that matter to even declare that you are living your life based on logic since the free will that would be require to allow you to apply that logic to make those decisions appears not to exist.

If pain is just brain activity then its something physical, but you believe its not is that correct? Ok then well then I will put the question to you again since pain is not physical then neither are other sensory inputs like sight so therefore is everything we see really real? Quantum physics which according to logic at least is the most all encompassing scientific theory with very little lose ends, tells us nothing is really real at least as we see it. But ironically even that field is using consciousness to verify its findings, so we cant be sure its accurate either.

The 4 fundamental laws of nature adhere to mathematics, although gravity is still refusing to be fully tied down. Theres at least two more that we know virtually nothing about. But in terms of the world that you and I know and experience, it has been pretty much fully explained by logic and mathematics. So a concept of the human mind can discover laws that govern everything we know, is that a coincidence or do the laws not actually exist at all and we have only convinced ourselves that they do.

My point is with these three things free will, consciousnesses and logic is that they are fundamental to our lives and our understanding yet outside of our minds there is no real evidence that they exist and are correct

Ok, I've given all of this relatively little consideration except where I've stumbled upon it on some books. It's all very intriguing and there's a chance I'll give it more consideration but I'm not sure I can really add anything worth while.

However, you asked where my evidence is that there's no God. Like I said in a previous post, there's the same evidence for and against God as there is for fairies. None, but who can prove there's no such thing? So without any evidence of existence I presume and believe that he doesn't exist. And yes, I thought it was obvious that I'd spent time thinking about God's existence, hence my interest in other people's ability/need/desire to believe.

On the free will, you say "our brains are making decisions based on prior experience............and those things are governed by the laws of nature." I don't understand this. I'm not sure if you've missed out words in the rest of that paragraph but I'm lost by the time I get to the end of it. It might be just my lack of understanding of the issue though.

With pain, I wouldn't say I believe anything. I had a think about it and surmised that it was just brain activity so I guess I'm calling it physical.

It's sort of funny that you wonder if we've convinced ourselves that laws are true rather than them really existing considering you've probably done the same thing with God.

[omaghjoe]

What sort of evidence are you looking for regarding God exactly? Fairies are supposed to be physical entities werent they?, God is not physical (in the way we understand at least).

WEll if pain is physical then where is it in the brain? Neurons firing causes it, that much is true, but no more so than Icemans choke lock causes it, or the nerves in the arm cause it. So where do the neurons project it so that we actually experience of pain itself? The current most plausible notion from the materialism camp is that is is an illusion, which is a total fudge. You could only say that the most likely of the two scenarios is a non-physical experience and for me consciousnesses itself is a non physical experience.

On free will query.... with the current naturalist/scientific outlook everything has a cause and affect (trillions upon trillions of cause and effects by the time it reaches our consciousness) and these can be traced back to the fundamental laws of nature...from the Big Bang (but dont get me started on that)

So if logic is not true, free will isnt true, consciousness isnt real, God isnt real, what the feck is real, Im mean you have to believe something is real dont you?

[Esmarelda]

Any evidence would be a help.

Your other points are interesting but having given it so little thought you can't really expect me to offer an opinion.

[omaghjoe]

Your missing my point again prob due to my convoluted delivery

I gave you evidence of God but you dismissed it so I am going to answer for you in the assumption that the evidence you are looking for is.... scientific evidence. And the answer to that is there is no scientific evidence of God.

However the point I am trying to make is that there is no scientific evidence of consciousness, which is actually how scientific evidence is arrived at, so is scientific evidence really correct.? Who knows but most scientists who venture over into the God question (such as the aforementioned Mr Hawkins) make the assumption that the perception consciousnesses gives us is 100% fact, however its  clearly not as i have demonstrated in previous posts. Although I do admire their faith in it

Also there is no scientific evidence of freewill or logic or for that matter morals, circles and shapes, numbers, emotions. Do you have the same attitude to people who adhere to these things as people of faith?

[Esmarelda]

What evidence of God have you given me? Sorry if it's glaringly obvious and I've missed it. Is is the fact that you feel spiritual?

I see where you're coming from with your argument and I guess I don't know enough to counter it.

I think I'm happy enough, in my possible ignorance, to assume the relative accuracy of scientific evidence, as I understand it. Who knows, maybe there's a God. If only we had a hint to which one is the real one.

[omaghjoe]

Yes that would be the evidence you can dismiss it if you like but it is evidence none the less

I've never seen a genuine counter to my argument just extra layers, tho most people switch off and castigate it as nonsense or stoner talk so appreciate you sticking it out.

Your asking the wrong question about which is the right God, there is just different ways of worshiping him you gotta find whats best for you.

Well I guess we have reached the end of the road in our discussion never really expected to change you mind on spirituality anyway, just hope I have given you a more of an insight on your quest for understanding and hopefully I have given you a route to respect for the whole concept of faith...twas enjoyable, your not defensive and dont really throw about insults to make your points.

[Esmarelda]

Yes that would be the evidence you can dismiss it if you like but it is evidence none the less

I've never seen a genuine counter to my argument just extra layers, tho most people switch off and castigate it as nonsense or stoner talk so appreciate you sticking it out.

Your asking the wrong question about which is the right God, there is just different ways of worshiping him you gotta find whats best for you.

Well I guess we have reached the end of the road in our discussion never really expected to change you mind on spirituality anyway, just hope I have given you a more of an insight on your quest for understanding and hopefully I have given you a route to respect for the whole concept of faith...twas enjoyable, your not defensive and dont really throw about insults to make your points.

I don't see how something you feel without an explanation as to while you feel it is evidence of any sort.

I'm not asking the wrong question. People factually worship different Gods. There is no link between your God and any of the Hindu Gods.

Throwing insults across the net makes about as much sense as religion to me 

[omaghjoe]

Well as I have been over again and again its the same evidence that numbers, free will, morals and shapes exist (and thats without even getting into the consciousnesses question) so if you adhere to any of those things as existing then the evidence is much the same.

All religions are a reflection of people's spiritual component, the spiritual part of people is the same in everyone however the dogma of their religions obviously differ.

Hmmm yeah about as much sense as following a football team, drinking beer, having a family, living....or "enjoying yourself"