Cork v Tipp, AI Semi Final, 17/08/2014

[johnneycool]

As a manager in the past I've used the tactic of bring an extra man into defence, it was done largely to give the team confidence and not get hammered by the bigger teams in the Antrim leagues, it worked well and while we didn't win too many games the lads did gain some self belief that they could for large periods of the games compete, against the teams of our ability we did go 15 on 15.

After a while we only used this for the first half and went 15 on 15 in the second half.

If this tactic was used on me by a 'lesser' team I would always push the extra man up on theirs (as long as I had confidence on my main defender marking their main man) but allowing the other team time to pick out passes to their 2 man ff line is crazy. Not too many tactics can be used in hurling like football, the speed of the delivery into the forwards or the ability to hit long cross field passes can cut out a lot of tactics (if done right) Kilkenny's only ever tactic I ever see them do is the roving HF line and FF line where they interchange with each other and on the opposition puck outs the wing half forwards go deep looking for it or the break ball. this usually allows a short puck out, which can be dangerous

Aye, but you'd try to work it in such a way that the opponents free man is the worst hurler of the lot, normally a corner back, not feckin Paudi Maher standing on the 45 metre line, picking up lose ball and bringing it out without a challenge to midfield where he laid it on a plate for the forwards. Granted there are very few defenders about now who can't pick out a man with a pass but surely they'd be meeting a tackle before midfield.

[Milltown Row2]

As a manager in the past I've used the tactic of bring an extra man into defence, it was done largely to give the team confidence and not get hammered by the bigger teams in the Antrim leagues, it worked well and while we didn't win too many games the lads did gain some self belief that they could for large periods of the games compete, against the teams of our ability we did go 15 on 15.

After a while we only used this for the first half and went 15 on 15 in the second half.

If this tactic was used on me by a 'lesser' team I would always push the extra man up on theirs (as long as I had confidence on my main defender marking their main man) but allowing the other team time to pick out passes to their 2 man ff line is crazy. Not too many tactics can be used in hurling like football, the speed of the delivery into the forwards or the ability to hit long cross field passes can cut out a lot of tactics (if done right) Kilkenny's only ever tactic I ever see them do is the roving HF line and FF line where they interchange with each other and on the opposition puck outs the wing half forwards go deep looking for it or the break ball. this usually allows a short puck out, which can be dangerous

Aye, but you'd try to work it in such a way that the opponents free man is the worst hurler of the lot, normally a corner back, not feckin Paudi Maher standing on the 45 metre line, picking up lose ball and bringing it out without a challenge to midfield where he laid it on a plate for the forwards. Granted there are very few defenders about now who can't pick out a man with a pass but surely they'd be meeting a tackle before midfield.

Totally, any manager worth his salt would have seen what was going on! why wasn't it fixed by the Corks line, and in that regard this is were JBM came a cropper. in saying that Cork didn't seem at the races. that big gap seems to play into the team with momentum in hurling I think (even though Kilkenny won, I think Limerick were the better team)

[rodney trotter]

Aidan Walsh to end his dual days at Inter - County, wonder what he will choose?

At one stage in Cork's All-Ireland quarter-final defeat to Mayo over the August bank holiday weekend Aidan Walsh went to control a ball and almost felt his senses leave him.

  As it hopped a strange thought struck him. 'Should I put my toe under it or will I just pick it up,' he asked himself.A spring and summer of juggling between two elite Cork teams had, in that moment, left him in a brief state of confusion. He knew the game was up.When Walsh was replaced in the second half of Cork's All-Ireland hurling semi-final defeat to Tipperary two weeks later the decision was already made. His dual career at inter-county level was over."When I came off the field and into the dug-out I put my head down and said, 'It's not worth it'," he recalled."Jimmy (Barry-Murphy) came over and shook hands and I said that I was sorry, that it hadn't been good enough. We had played so well in the Munster Championship but then not to perform against Tipperary wasn't acceptable and wasn't good enough.Disappointing"To put in such an effort all year and then let yourself down on the big day with 70,000 people there and huge support from Cork was very disappointing. My response to that was 'never again', I'm not putting myself in that position."He will make the decision on where to give allegiance over the next few weeks. When it is made it will be final. Walsh will be sticking with that team for the rest of his senior career, he feels.He's happy he did it, he enjoyed the year but he is also satisfied that it can't be a complete success."I suppose it was very difficult when it came to the All-Ireland series, especially when we won the Munster hurling championship and it was a massive high," he recalled."Then I had to go back to the football. I played the Sligo game, played the Mayo game and had two weeks to prepare for the Tipperary game."It's not enough to prepare for an All-Ireland semi-final and my performance showed that on the field."I was lethargic and tired and I just wasn't up to the pace of it. I'm not blaming that totally and saying it's the reason that I played badly, that I didn't get enough preparation. But it is certainly a factor. I see that when we lost a game the first fellas to be blamed or to be mentioned were the dual players. Obviously we were some bit at fault but not the total reason. I just thought we were always the ones mentioned."I knew going into it at the start of the year when I made the decision to do both that all these things would come against you but like that you are just trying to do everything you could to prepare yourself right and do everything you could to be ready for the game or ready for whatever game came your way."Looking back on it, the time wasn't enough and the build-up wasn't enough and that's just the way it was. I am glad I did it now and I can look back when I am finished and say I did it."With Lee Chin committing to hurling in Wexford, Davy Fitzgerald deciding that Podge and Sean Collins can't do both in Clare and now Walsh in the process of choosing one over the other, the concept of the dual player, particularly at such elite level, looks like it's over.Walsh doesn't see it as "impossible" but now knows the scale of the drawbacks."I would say it's impossible to play both codes at 100 per cent so you're not going to play at your full potential. That's not possible in today's game with the way it's gone."At the start of the year I knew that was going to be the case that I wasn't going to be 100 per cent at both of them."He is also conscious of the how other squad members might react."At the back of your mind you're thinking the other players in the squad are saying, 'How can this man do 50 per cent of the training and I do 100 per cent of the train and he's on before me'. So there's a bit of anger there."If I was in their position, I'd be the same if a fella is coming in for half the session and getting on the team."All those things were part of it too but it's impossible to play 100 per cent at both."You're lucky if you get 75 per cent. It's all a question of how much time you get before a game."This year, having drawn against Waterford the preparation for the football wasn't great because we had two games against them and then the Clare game."So that was four or five weeks of hurling and I only got a week before the Tipperary (football) game and then two weeks for the Kerry game. You're only there for half the time so obviously your preparation can't be great."He felt his absence from the training ground with the footballers most."When you are missing so much training, you are not at one with your 'keeper or not at one with your sense of kick-outs. Kick-outs are such a vital part of the game."We were very weak winning possession around the middle third this year."That came down to not having a partnership, me not being there enough with the other midfield partner, me not being there enough with the goalkeepers so we could work on signals or we could work on movement."So that really showed throughout the year and it cost us big time, especially in the Kerry game. That's where they really killed us."Walsh admits it won't be easy choosing between two "terrific" groups but the feeling is he may lean back to the footballers with whom he has been involved with since 2010, even if that means parting with Kanturk club-mates Anthony Nash and Lorcán McLoughlin. The absence of confirmation about the hurling manager is also weighing on his mind."Whoever you don't pick you are going to miss out on. I am with the footballers for the last five or six years and I am great friends with all of them."I'm with the hurling for one year and having Anthony and Lorcan in the panel as well, two clubmen, that's a very hard decision to make. My head will be wrecked now for the next few weeks."With my career now and the age I'm at, I'd say whatever one I pick could be the one. I can't really say but I'll try and stick with it for a few years and get the most out of myself and get to the best level you can get to."Walsh is currently training with the Ireland International Rules squad who will be without the three Carlton Blues AFL players - Zac Tuohy, Ciaran Sheehan and Ciaran Byrne - as the club want to immerse them in pre-season training. - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/walsh-ends-cork-dual-days-as-he-ponders-2015-allegiance-30644025.html#sthash.Jtmhxke7.dpuf

[Asal Mor]

I'd say Davy will be feeling vindicated by Walsh's decision and assessment that the dual thing isn't feasible anymore.

[Zulu]

Totally different scenarios in Cork and Clare.

[johnneycool]

Totally different scenarios in Cork and Clare.

How so?

[Zulu]

The Clare dual players were giving 75% of their time to hurling, Cork would have been more 50:50. Clare footballers and hurlers would rarely, if ever, both get to the latter stages of their championships, there is a good chance both of the Cork squads would do so most years. In saying that, I don't think you can or should play both sports at IC level but I don't think Davy has done what's best for Clare hurling by taking his stance. I'd say he thought lads would fall into line if he gave them an ultimatum but it back fired.

[Asal Mor]

You're right about the Clare players giving most of their time to hurling Zulu, but  Paudge was poor this year after being unbelievable last year( imo could have been given player of the year though he'd a poor AIF replay). I read that he only trained with the footballers once a week last year, which you would think wouldn't be a huge distraction. His level was way down from 2012, and I don't think he played wit the county footballers in '12 but I'm open to correction on that.

[Zulu]

True, but I think that only stands up to scrutiny if the hurling only players maintained their standards and I don't think you can say that. It's up to every player to decide what he wants to do and up to every manager to decide if what a player is willing to commit is enough to warrant a squad number but I don't think Davy can argue he has done what's best for Clare hurling.

[Asal Mor]

True, but I think that only stands up to scrutiny if the hurling only players maintained their standards and I don't think you can say that. It's up to every player to decide what he wants to do and up to every manager to decide if what a player is willing to commit is enough to warrant a squad number but I don't think Davy can argue he has done what's best for Clare hurling.

Yeah a lot of other lads had a huge drop off in form too. I'm not saying Davy is right or wrong but some really talented fellas seem to have struggled with the dual thing and it hasn't worked in the modern game. Alan Kerins managed it pretty well back around '01 I think, but the demands have gone way up since then and I can't think of any player who's done it successfully since. I'm sure Davy will argue he did do what's best for Clare hurling, and I wonder will Paudge have regrets down the line? It looks set to be a great era for Clare and imo Davy has been a great manager for many years. He's just had one bad year and people are writing him off.

[Zulu]

Jeez I don't know about that Asal. Waterford weren't sad to see him go and I don't think he did a particularly notable job there. His record with LIT is impressive enough but he had a a fairly stacked deck there. For me, Podge giving 75% of his time to hurling is still good enough to make the Clare panel, especially when he could give 100% at the business end. Dropping a player of his quality from the panel 8 months before a serious ball is pucked is a debatable strategy IMO.

[Asal Mor]

I thought he got decent results at Waterford without being outstanding. He did have a superstar squad at LIT in fairness and he was a liability for Clare this year. But he was great last year and stuck to a style of play he believed in, even when it was all going wrong.

Paudge is class, and you'd want him in there. I think the dual thing could be do-able too but if I was his father I'd be telling him to focus on his hurling, where he could become a legend.

[Roashter]

As a manager, Davy has done a really good job pretty much anywhere he has been.
The problem for Davy is his handling of the media off the field, and his on-field antics do him no favours either.
I'm no big fan of Davy and would personally like to see dual players being accomodated, but this is extremely difficult to achieve in the modern game -and I can fully understand why Davy issued the boys with the football or hurling ultimatum.
Clare may struggle in a few positions, and while Podge is an outstanding hurler on his day Clare have an abundance of small/fast nippy forwards. Don't forget that Shane O'Donnell saw no championship action this year while Aaron cunningham only got a few minutes against Wexford and both of these are more than capable of claiming Podge's position.

[Asal Mor]

Clare have an abundance of small/fast nippy forwards. Don't forget that Shane O'Donnell saw no championship action this year while Aaron cunningham only got a few minutes against Wexford and both of these are more than capable of claiming Podge's position.

That's very true. In Galway , we'd give anything for a fast, skillful player like Podge to compliment our lumbering giants, but they seem to be growing on trees right now in Clare.