Plane Crash In New York State

[full back]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7887555.stm


Forty-nine people have died after a passenger plane crashed into a house in Buffalo, New York state.

The Continental Connection Flight 3407 was five minutes from Buffalo airport when it came down at 2210 (0310 GMT).

Officials said there were no survivors from the 44 passengers and four crew on board the flight from Newark. One person on the ground also died.

It is not clear what caused the crash. There was reported to be light snow and fog at the time.

TV footage showed the wreckage of the plane and a house engulfed in flames.

Twelve other homes were evacuated around the crash site in Clarence Center, a suburb of Buffalo.

 

State police spokeswoman Rebecca Gibbons said that of the 48 people on the plane, "there were no survivors."

Dave Bissonette, the emergency control director in Clarence, said one person on the ground had been killed.

'Dropped off radar'

The twin-prop Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 aircraft, operated by Colgan Air, was flying from Newark airport in New Jersey to Buffalo Niagara International Airport.

US media say a recording of Buffalo's air traffic control before the crash showed no concerns by either the controller or the pilot.

However, a minute later, the controller was unable to contact Flight 3407 and asks other planes in the area if they can spot it.

  It sounded quite loud, and then the sound stopped. Then one or two seconds later, there was a thunderous explosion

Eyewitness David Luce
'The plane didn't sound normal'



"I was told by the tower the plane simply dropped off the radar screen," Niagara Frontier Transportation Authority spokesman C Douglas Hartmayer was quoted by the Buffalo News as saying.

Erie County Executive Chris Collins said there were three people in the house that was hit. One died and the other two managed to escape, with apparently minor injuries. Other reports say there was just one person in the house at the time.

"The tail of the plane is sticking out of the ground," he told CNN.

"Obviously, it exploded upon impact. So there was a lot of fire initially. It landed - or it came down right next to the fire hall. So there were firemen on this scene within literally seconds of it going down.

"I can't say enough about what the firefighters did, rushing right in as you might expect they would - a very heroic effort. But there were no survivors."

He said the fire was now under control and the site of the crash had been sealed off.

David Luce, who lives 150 yards from the crash site, said he heard the plane moments before the crash.

"It sounded quite loud, and then the sound stopped," he told the Buffalo newspaper.

"Then one or two seconds later, there was a thunderous explosion. I thought something hit our house. It shook our whole house."

He described going to the scene of the crash and seeing flames up to 50ft high.

"The house was already flattened. There was no house, just a pile of rubbish and still burning".

Chris Kausner said his sister Elise, a law student, was on the flight.

"I'm thinking about the fact that my mother has to fly home from Florida and what I'm going to tell my two sons."

Continental Airlines expressed profound sadness over the crash and said it was working closely with Colgan Air to "provide as much support as possible for all concerned".

The Federal Aviation Administration is sending a team of investigators to the scene.

[Minder]

Have they ruled out terrorism?

[Tony Baloney]

Have they ruled out terrorism?

Apparently the flight crew did not report any problems before it crashed so they'll not rule anything out yet.

[Puckoon]

Sad way to go.

[mylestheslasher]

This woman hadn't much luck....



One of the victims of Continental Flight 3407, Beverly Eckert, was a 9/11 widow who put her grief to good use to make the country safer.


Just last week, Eckert was at the White House with Barack Obama, part of a meeting the president had with relatives of those killed in the 2001 attacks and the bombing of the USS Cole to discuss how the new administration would handle terror suspects.

"She was such an important part of all of our work," said Mary Fetchet, another 9/11 family activist. She learned Eckert was aboard the plane from another close Eckert family friend now headed to Buffalo. Officials investigating the crash have not yet confirmed she was on board the plane.

[muppet]

This woman hadn't much luck....



One of the victims of Continental Flight 3407, Beverly Eckert, was a 9/11 widow who put her grief to good use to make the country safer.


Just last week, Eckert was at the White House with Barack Obama, part of a meeting the president had with relatives of those killed in the 2001 attacks and the bombing of the USS Cole to discuss how the new administration would handle terror suspects.

"She was such an important part of all of our work," said Mary Fetchet, another 9/11 family activist. She learned Eckert was aboard the plane from another close Eckert family friend now headed to Buffalo. Officials investigating the crash have not yet confirmed she was on board the plane.

Obama paid tribute to her today though. Unbelievable for that family.

[Aerlik]

It has been suggested that the autopilot was being used on final approach.  The major problem there is that if ice starts to form on the leading edge of either the wings or the elevator, and the de-ice systems are not activated the autopilot will try to counter the unstable airflow over these caused by the ice  and in turn result in abnormal flight, most likely resulting in a stall which appears to have happened here.  We have a policy where the autopilot is switched off on final approach whether using an instrument approach or a GPS approach, during day and night approaches in crap weather or clear.

[full back]

Is that the pilots fault then aerlik?

[muppet]

It has been suggested that the autopilot was being used on final approach.  The major problem there is that if ice starts to form on the leading edge of either the wings or the elevator, and the de-ice systems are not activated the autopilot will try to counter the unstable airflow over these caused by the ice  and in turn result in abnormal flight, most likely resulting in a stall which appears to have happened here.  We have a policy where the autopilot is switched off on final approach whether using an instrument approach or a GPS approach, during day and night approaches in crap weather or clear.

The weather suggests there may have been fog in which case they might have been using Cat 11 or Cat 111 ILS which would require the autopilot.

There is a long history of commuter aircraft crashing due to icing in the States.

FB too early to say. Each airline and aircraft manufacturer has it's policies and if he was following those it is hard to see it as his fault. (Other than of course the fact everyone is dead which is his responsibility ultimately).

In the Hudson Bay crash it appears that the crew both missed pressing a button called the 'ditching' pushbutton*. As they weren't following any checklist due to the lack of time available they can hardly be blamed for that but while there is absolutely no doubt it was a heroic performance, it could have been done better.

* The ditching pushbutton, when pressed, closes all of the valves and holes in the fuselage to assist floatation in the event of ditching (landing on water) and to minimise damage from the impact. It is possible that the hole found in the bottom of the fuselage was caused by the outflow valve (the main pressurisation control devise) being ripped apart by the water on touchdown. This wouldn't have happened if it was closed manually or by the pressing ditching pushbutton.

   

[Aerlik]

The weather suggests there may have been fog in which case they might have been using Cat 11 or Cat 111 ILS which would require the autopilot.

There is a long history of commuter aircraft crashing due to icing in the States.

FB too early to say. Each airline and aircraft manufacturer has it's policies and if he was following those it is hard to see it as his fault. (Other than of course the fact everyone is dead which is his responsibility ultimately).

In the Hudson Bay crash it appears that the crew both missed pressing a button called the 'ditching' pushbutton*. As they weren't following any checklist due to the lack of time available they can hardly be blamed for that but while there is absolutely no doubt it was a heroic performance, it could have been done better.

* The ditching pushbutton, when pressed, closes all of the valves and holes in the fuselage to assist floatation in the event of ditching (landing on water) and to minimise damage from the impact. It is possible that the hole found in the bottom of the fuselage was caused by the outflow valve (the main pressurisation control devise) being ripped apart by the water on touchdown. This wouldn't have happened if it was closed manually or by the pressing ditching pushbutton.

   

Thankfully, low-level icing is not something I have to contend with here in western Oz, although it can occur from about 1000ft AGL during winter in other parts.

I thought it was snowing not foggy...varying reports from the US bureaux of our esteemed crap commercial stations over here.  The small issue of 208 people killed two weeks ago is, as you might understand, dominating the stations over here.

Oz doesn't have Cat 2 or 3 ILS systems although Sydney is talking about getting one.  Could do with them over here in Perth in winter sometimes.  The fog has seen aircraft diverting 1500kms north.  Are you sure that an autopilot is required for a Cat 2 or 3 ILS approach if there are two crew?  Also, did the approach have Cat 2 or 3 capabilities?  And are you sure the Dash 8 is Cat 2 or Cat 3 approach-capable?

What hasn't been mentioned yet (or at least I haven't heard of it) is an engine failure, either full or partial on approach and failure of the crew to control the aircraft in the circumastances.

[muppet]

The weather suggests there may have been fog in which case they might have been using Cat 11 or Cat 111 ILS which would require the autopilot.

There is a long history of commuter aircraft crashing due to icing in the States.

FB too early to say. Each airline and aircraft manufacturer has it's policies and if he was following those it is hard to see it as his fault. (Other than of course the fact everyone is dead which is his responsibility ultimately).

In the Hudson Bay crash it appears that the crew both missed pressing a button called the 'ditching' pushbutton*. As they weren't following any checklist due to the lack of time available they can hardly be blamed for that but while there is absolutely no doubt it was a heroic performance, it could have been done better.

* The ditching pushbutton, when pressed, closes all of the valves and holes in the fuselage to assist floatation in the event of ditching (landing on water) and to minimise damage from the impact. It is possible that the hole found in the bottom of the fuselage was caused by the outflow valve (the main pressurisation control devise) being ripped apart by the water on touchdown. This wouldn't have happened if it was closed manually or by the pressing ditching pushbutton.

   

Thankfully, low-level icing is not something I have to contend with here in western Oz, although it can occur from about 1000ft AGL during winter in other parts.

I thought it was snowing not foggy...varying reports from the US bureaux of our esteemed crap commercial stations over here.  The small issue of 208 people killed two weeks ago is, as you might understand, dominating the stations over here.

Oz doesn't have Cat 2 or 3 ILS systems although Sydney is talking about getting one.  Could do with them over here in Perth in winter sometimes.  The fog has seen aircraft diverting 1500kms north.  Are you sure that an autopilot is required for a Cat 2 or 3 ILS approach if there are two crew?  Also, did the approach have Cat 2 or 3 capabilities?  And are you sure the Dash 8 is Cat 2 or Cat 3 approach-capable?

What hasn't been mentioned yet (or at least I haven't heard of it) is an engine failure, either full or partial on approach and failure of the crew to control the aircraft in the circumastances.

Weather: Kbuf 130254z 24015g22kt 3sm -sn Br Few011 Bkn021 Ovc027 01/m01 A2979 Rmk Ao2 Slp097 P0001 60004 T00061006 51015

Snow by it's nature can give very low visability hence the possible requirement for Cat 2 or Cat 3 but looking at the METAR above at the time 3sm (statute miles) is not Cat 2 or 3 weather. Seems like they should have disconnected the autopilot as it will try to fly what it thinks is the correct speed. If the aircraft is covered with ice, which the autopilot will be unaware of, then a stall becomes highly likely and that is what seems to have happened here.

I'm not 100% that autopilot is required on all types for Cat 2 (possibly required for approach with a manual landing to follow) but it definately is for all Cat 3 approaches.

Buffalo runway data suggests it has runway lights for Cat 2 & 3 but there doesn't seem to be an approach for Cat 2 or 3.

Here is a video of a Shorts 360 after flying through severe icing. Unfortunately it is at night but you can get the picture.

 

[magpie seanie]

I actually flew out of Newark that day on a Continental flight.