Where next for Law and Order in NI?

[carribbear]

'It's because they're Brits. You know, the ones who have been responsible for every bad thing that has ever happened to Ireland, from the weather, to potato blight, to Steve Staunton being given the manager's job of the ROI football team...'

Unnecessarily facetious considering the subject being discussed.  The British/English have a HELL of a lot to answer for over the past 800 years and are a core cause of the island's political problems ... that can't be denied by anyone

I didn't mean to be facetious, I was merely trying to point out the idiocy being spouted by certain posters on this thread, who seem to think that the British have some ulterior motive for being on NI, which causes them deliberately to want to restart the (so-called) "Dirty War", by infiltrating the Dissidents and sending them off to murder (British) Squaddies and Peelers. 

At a guess, they may need something to occupy their forces when they pull out of the middle east. Let's just say that british forces intentions have not always been honourable when it comes to Ireland. With the main players embedded in the political avenues its not going to be too difficult to control but who knows, some loon in whitehall might see it as just a way to finish off a job they couldnt from 1969-1997.

[Evil Genius]

And who's going to deal with the Dissident problem in NI, then?

Maybe an Irish army could deal with it?

Assuming you don't mean the Royal Irish Regiment(!), then i assume you mean the army of the Irish Republic (not the Irish Republican Army, btw).

Now call me silly if you like, but somehow I can't see that suggestion going down too well with Brian Cowan & Co. Nor can I see the Dissidents being too deterred from shooting peelers by that either. And that's before we get to the reaction of NI's Loyalist  paramilitaries...

Quite the most idiotic suggestion anyone will post on this Board in the next year or two.  

[Zapatista]

Wow, I feel for your pain. I have no idea how you manage to tolerate the overwhelmingly oppressive burden of being occupied by a couple of hundred Engineers in a barracks in Antrim, who inflict outrageous treatment on the natives like ordering Pizza from them on a Saturday night...

That's patronising and a very low form of debate. It has no regard to the serious actions carried out by the British Army. I'd even say the Brits would feel demeaned by that.

Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But the fact is it is British for now. so do you accept that, or do you think it legitimate to engage in "armed struggle" in order to change it?

I accept it can be successfully argued on a technicality but that it is morally wrong. I accept that in certain conditions an armed struggle is legitimate however those conditions are not there now.

NI has existed and been British for 88 years. Before that, the whole of Ireland was British for at least 200 years, arguably 400 years, depending on how you measure it. Most people seem to accept that, whilst getting on with life in 2009. I am sorry you do not appear able to do so.

Ireland was never British. It was Governed by Britain but it was never British as Britain is British. do you also think india and palestine were british?

Of course the British Army goes where it is told. Who do you think it is telling them to go back to NI this time? The Yanks again? 

I don't see your point above.

[Zapatista]

And who's going to deal with the Dissident problem in NI, then?

Maybe an Irish army could deal with it?

Assuming you don't mean the Royal Irish Regiment(!), then i assume you mean the army of the Irish Republic (not the Irish Republican Army, btw).

Now call me silly if you like, but somehow I can't see that suggestion going down too well with Brian Cowan & Co. Nor can I see the Dissidents being too deterred from shooting peelers by that either. And that's before we get to the reaction of NI's Loyalist  paramilitaries...

Quite the most idiotic suggestion anyone will post on this Board in the next year or two.  

You are right it is idiotic. It is every bit as idiotic as the British army being here. You seem concerned about how loyalist would react to it yet you have no concern of how republicans react to British forces? It is an idiotic idea .

[Gnevin]

Their is more realistic chance of the scots voting to leave the Union than a Majority being formed in the North in the next 10-20 years. Are the British attempting to create a proxy war over their? I can see an end of the Union when NI left , however I don't see why it would be an end too British influence or why anyone would drop them like a stone.

If and when the scots leave it will be on an arrangement that suits the union and not a second before that. It would be a far cry from being forced to leave through arms or through political pressure from an already independant ROI and the devolved Government.

If the Scots vote for independence, it will  be on there terms unless England and Wales plans to hold it by force which will never happen.

[brokencrossbar1]

The idea that the British Government would want to stay in NI is laughable.  The idea that the Government have any input in infiltrating the terrorist organisations is laughable.  The British Secret services have done s, I have no doubt, but they are completely seperate from the Govenrment.  There is very much a need to know policy when dealing with these issues and the likes of Shaun Woodward is very much on the "no need to know" list.

That being said I see no alternative other than to extend the reach of the intelligence gathering.  There is obviously a disenfranchised element in the republican movement.  They are the rump as it where who feel that there is some unfinished business with the Brits.  The only way to break them is from the inside out.  There will be collateral damage in doing so but in militaristic terms that is acceptable.  People mightened realise it but I actually think we could be near the end game.  I thought about this a lot today and think that the last vestages of the old war is going to be cleaned out, both militarily and politically.  This is the last dying kick of a dying beast and it, I believe, is being carefully controlled.  The best way that the secret services can end things is by letting things happen the way they want to.  I have watched how things developed over my 33 years of life and I saw how at crucial points in history certain things "happened".  There have been major things at crucial times which have guided us into the place where we now face.  This recent upsurge will destroy Republicanism as a concept for the next 10 years.  SF will have to become fully immersed in Northern Politics, they will become more mainstream and will evolve into a Nationalist Party more so than a Republican.  This will alow them to gain more legitimacy.  Policing will be devolved as it will show in the next few weeks to solve this terrible event and hey presto, the autonomous statelet of NI is born.

[ardmhachaabu]

The idea that the British Government would want to stay in NI is laughable.  The idea that the Government have any input in infiltrating the terrorist organisations is laughable.  The British Secret services have done s, I have no doubt, but they are completely seperate from the Govenrment.  There is very much a need to know policy when dealing with these issues and the likes of Shaun Woodward is very much on the "no need to know" list.

That being said I see no alternative other than to extend the reach of the intelligence gathering.  There is obviously a disenfranchised element in the republican movement.  They are the rump as it where who feel that there is some unfinished business with the Brits.  The only way to break them is from the inside out.  There will be collateral damage in doing so but in militaristic terms that is acceptable.  People mightened realise it but I actually think we could be near the end game.  I thought about this a lot today and think that the last vestages of the old war is going to be cleaned out, both militarily and politically.  This is the last dying kick of a dying beast and it, I believe, is being carefully controlled.  The best way that the secret services can end things is by letting things happen the way they want to.  I have watched how things developed over my 33 years of life and I saw how at crucial points in history certain things "happened".  There have been major things at crucial times which have guided us into the place where we now face.  This recent upsurge will destroy Republicanism as a concept for the next 10 years.  SF will have to become fully immersed in Northern Politics, they will become more mainstream and will evolve into a Nationalist Party more so than a Republican.  This will alow them to gain more legitimacy.  Policing will be devolved as it will show in the next few weeks to solve this terrible event and hey presto, the autonomous statelet of NI is born.

BC1, you got it in a nutshell as far as I am concerned.

They are even more riddled with touts than the provisionals were - by 'they' I mean the various dissident groupings.

[pintsofguinness]

How about devolving Policing & Justice and leaving the PSNI to do the job they are paid handsomely to do.

By "the job they are handsomely paid to do", do you mean getting shot when answering calls from householders reporting a break-in?

Any amount of police officers, all over the world, run the risk of getting shot/have been shot answering a call quit crying like the RUC is the only one, they knew what they signed up to. 

Nobody is suggesting that the army be deployed back on the streets as a matter of routine, as happened during the Troubles. Rather, Orde has merely requested a very small number of SRR personnel to assist in electronic surveillance etc. Note that it is the SRR, not the SAS, which indicates that these operatives will not be used in interception duties. Rather, it suggests that they will be used to collect evidence, which the PSNI will use to make arrests, ideally before the event.

FFS they need a special force to "collect evidence?"

"Occupying forces", is it? Do you mean by that those Sappers in Antrim, who had been there for 18 months, without anyone hardly even noticing? Or their Pizza-delivering "collaborators"? Or the Catholic cop murdered answering a call to a break-in?

Why is his religion important to you?

And who's going to deal with the Dissident problem in NI, then? The Boy Scouts?

I'm sorry, what are the RUC paid to do?
If they can't do their jobs, zap had a great idea, bring in the Irish army, bring in the gardai - the community that these people come from would be more willing to speak to their fellow Irish men.  and the brits are busy invading, occupying and murdering women and children in how many countries now? 

[fitzroyalty]

Any amount of police officers, all over the world, run the risk of getting shot/have been shot answering a call quit crying like the RUC is the only one, they knew what they signed up to. 

Quite an ignorant remark, a community officer attending a call for a broken window, gets shot in the back of the head. Police forces across the globe face the threat of being shot but not in the manor that was witnessed last night.

[pintsofguinness]

Any amount of police officers, all over the world, run the risk of getting shot/have been shot answering a call quit crying like the RUC is the only one, they knew what they signed up to. 

Quite an ignorant remark, a community officer attending a call for a broken window, gets shot in the back of the head. Police forces across the globe face the threat of being shot but not in the manor that was witnessed last night.

Of course they do, sadly.

[MW]

It means then that the Brits can act as if they are there to keep two factions apart. They can then tell the world that the two sides are fighting each other and the Brits are actually trying to keep the peace. If the Brits are attacked it can be broadcast to the world that 'peace keeping Brit forces were attacked' rather than the truth which is 'occupying forces were attacked.'They have been doing this since the 70s.

"Occupying forces", is it? Do you mean by that those Sappers in Antrim, who had been there for 18 months, without anyone hardly even noticing? Or their Pizza-delivering "collaborators"? Or the Catholic cop murdered answering a call to a break-in?

In so far as there is a British "occupation" of Ireland, it is constituted by the majority presence of 1 million Britons in NI. And unless or until that changes (and it hasn't over the last 400 years, btw), then the whole world accepts that NI will remain British.

That being so, however, the British Government has absolutely no desire to have to deploy the army on the streets of NI if it can possibly avoid it. If nothing else, they are already being stretched to breaking point by Iraq, Afghanistan and the threat of Islamic terrorism at home. And that's before you start to add up the bill for a renewed military deployment in NI, in these recessionary times.

Might be a nice way to withdraw troops from the middle east by saying they are needed back in NI....

I think you'll find British forces are already timetabled to leave Iraq

[carribbear]

It means then that the Brits can act as if they are there to keep two factions apart. They can then tell the world that the two sides are fighting each other and the Brits are actually trying to keep the peace. If the Brits are attacked it can be broadcast to the world that 'peace keeping Brit forces were attacked' rather than the truth which is 'occupying forces were attacked.'They have been doing this since the 70s.

"Occupying forces", is it? Do you mean by that those Sappers in Antrim, who had been there for 18 months, without anyone hardly even noticing? Or their Pizza-delivering "collaborators"? Or the Catholic cop murdered answering a call to a break-in?

In so far as there is a British "occupation" of Ireland, it is constituted by the majority presence of 1 million Britons in NI. And unless or until that changes (and it hasn't over the last 400 years, btw), then the whole world accepts that NI will remain British.

That being so, however, the British Government has absolutely no desire to have to deploy the army on the streets of NI if it can possibly avoid it. If nothing else, they are already being stretched to breaking point by Iraq, Afghanistan and the threat of Islamic terrorism at home. And that's before you start to add up the bill for a renewed military deployment in NI, in these recessionary times.

Might be a nice way to withdraw troops from the middle east by saying they are needed back in NI....

I think you'll find British forces are already timetabled to leave Iraq

Yep, and what do they plan to do with all these excess soldiers? Send them to butlins?

Usually her maj's government have to find some way of raising morale a la thatcher & the falklands when the economy is taking a hammering.

[MW]

It means then that the Brits can act as if they are there to keep two factions apart. They can then tell the world that the two sides are fighting each other and the Brits are actually trying to keep the peace. If the Brits are attacked it can be broadcast to the world that 'peace keeping Brit forces were attacked' rather than the truth which is 'occupying forces were attacked.'They have been doing this since the 70s.

"Occupying forces", is it? Do you mean by that those Sappers in Antrim, who had been there for 18 months, without anyone hardly even noticing? Or their Pizza-delivering "collaborators"? Or the Catholic cop murdered answering a call to a break-in?

In so far as there is a British "occupation" of Ireland, it is constituted by the majority presence of 1 million Britons in NI. And unless or until that changes (and it hasn't over the last 400 years, btw), then the whole world accepts that NI will remain British.

That being so, however, the British Government has absolutely no desire to have to deploy the army on the streets of NI if it can possibly avoid it. If nothing else, they are already being stretched to breaking point by Iraq, Afghanistan and the threat of Islamic terrorism at home. And that's before you start to add up the bill for a renewed military deployment in NI, in these recessionary times.

Might be a nice way to withdraw troops from the middle east by saying they are needed back in NI....

I think you'll find British forces are already timetabled to leave Iraq

Yep, and what do they plan to do with all these excess soldiers? Send them to butlins?

Usually her maj's government have to find some way of raising morale a la thatcher & the falklands when the economy is taking a hammering.

1 - There aren't "excess soldiers" - actually the army is overstretched with its current committments.
2 - I don't know if it has escaped your attention, but the Coalition is in fairly urgent need of more troops in Afghanistan.

Don't know why I'm bothering to attempt a rational discussion with a member of the tinfoil hat brigade anyway - do yourself a favour and face up to the fact these murders were carried out by republican terrorists.