4 Letter Word

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

future Christmas's being sterile and totally commercial events

Tell me you're joking GDA! 

Thought someone might pick up on that one! 

But my point remains, although I'd have to agree that Christmas has become very commercial, there are still some aspects of the spiritual and real meaning of Christmas there. But we have to stop the erosion of the Christian aspect to Christmas.

J70 the examples I gave were ones which just came to mind, there are many more, some much worse. I'm sure you could give us any number of examples from the States.

I think the whole Christmas thing is symptomatic of a wider campaign by secularists to drain Christianity from Western Europe! 

3...2...1...

[J70]

future Christmas's being sterile and totally commercial events

Tell me you're joking GDA! 

Thought someone might pick up on that one! 

But my point remains, although I'd have to agree that Christmas has become very commercial, there are still some aspects of the spiritual and real meaning of Christmas there. But we have to stop the erosion of the Christian aspect to Christmas.

J70 the examples I gave were ones which just came to mind, there are many more, some much worse. I'm sure you could give us any number of examples from the States.

I think the whole Christmas thing is symptomatic of a wider campaign by secularists to drain Christianity from Western Europe! 

3...2...1...

I think you're attributing power where it doesn't exist. How is anyone going to "drain Christianity from Western Europe", shy of some Stalinesque campaign of repression? If people's religion is that valuable to them, it can survive just about anything. Look at Ireland under the Penal Laws. That didn't work too well for the British. How are "secularists" going to achieve what much more powerful forces couldn't?

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

future Christmas's being sterile and totally commercial events

Tell me you're joking GDA! 

Thought someone might pick up on that one! 

But my point remains, although I'd have to agree that Christmas has become very commercial, there are still some aspects of the spiritual and real meaning of Christmas there. But we have to stop the erosion of the Christian aspect to Christmas.

J70 the examples I gave were ones which just came to mind, there are many more, some much worse. I'm sure you could give us any number of examples from the States.

I think the whole Christmas thing is symptomatic of a wider campaign by secularists to drain Christianity from Western Europe! 

3...2...1...

I think you're attributing power where it doesn't exist. How is anyone going to "drain Christianity from Western Europe", shy of some Stalinesque campaign of repression? If people's religion is that valuable to them, it can survive just about anything. Look at Ireland under the Penal Laws. That didn't work too well for the British. How are "secularists" going to achieve what much more powerful forces couldn't?

As I'm sure you'll agree subtle methods work much better the "blunt force" actions - "softly, softly, catchy monkey".
Take for example Coca-cola's advertising campaign over the last half a century or so, it has probably singularly done more to change the "face" of Christmas worldwide then any other organisation (inc. churches).
Small changes every year and you soon forget what it was like before.

[J70]

future Christmas's being sterile and totally commercial events

Tell me you're joking GDA! 

Thought someone might pick up on that one! 

But my point remains, although I'd have to agree that Christmas has become very commercial, there are still some aspects of the spiritual and real meaning of Christmas there. But we have to stop the erosion of the Christian aspect to Christmas.

J70 the examples I gave were ones which just came to mind, there are many more, some much worse. I'm sure you could give us any number of examples from the States.

I think the whole Christmas thing is symptomatic of a wider campaign by secularists to drain Christianity from Western Europe! 

3...2...1...

I think you're attributing power where it doesn't exist. How is anyone going to "drain Christianity from Western Europe", shy of some Stalinesque campaign of repression? If people's religion is that valuable to them, it can survive just about anything. Look at Ireland under the Penal Laws. That didn't work too well for the British. How are "secularists" going to achieve what much more powerful forces couldn't?

As I'm sure you'll agree subtle methods work much better the "blunt force" actions - "softly, softly, catchy monkey".
Take for example Coca-cola's advertising campaign over the last half a century or so, it has probably singularly done more to change the "face" of Christmas worldwide then any other organisation (inc. churches).
Small changes every year and you soon forget what it was like before.

You're referring to christmas lights, snow, Santa, that kind of stuff?

If so, what's the problem? People love it. If they didn't respond to it, Coca Cola wouldn't waste their money. Society and culture isn't static, and never has been. As long as such changes aren't forced on people, there's nothing wrong with them.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Yes, thats the kind of thing I'm refering to and don't get me wrong I love it, Christmas is like a state of mind as well, everyone (well most) in better moods, more smiles etc... But what worries me is the sustained attack growing every year on the Christian public expressions of Christmas.

Small changes every year and you soon forget what it was like before.

[armaghniac]

Stop cribbing, lads!

Christmas is combination of Christian stuff and mid winter stuff. Cromwell, much admired on OWC, tried to ban Yule logs and the like. If people tell the happy holiday crowd to clear off, then they will.

[Pangurban]

Gaothdobhair has grasped the essential point of this debate. Its the out of sight,out of mind tactic. By driving certain outward expressions of the traditional irish and christian  Christmas out of the public space it is hoped to radically reduce there influence on society. This agenda is not driven by emigrants or people of other faiths. There are more sinister forces at work here, large corporations whose desire to promote a purely consumerist,materialist view of life have long been funding and promoting programmes to eliminate cultural and religious expressions of difference, as these hinder the development of there ability to advertise and promote sales of there products on a world wide basis. It is no accident that the sociology departments,out of which the so called  massive equality and political correctness has grown, are largely funded by big business. This method of social engineering is well tried and tested, the womens liberation movement being its previous big cause.

[Fishbat]

Ireland Christian/Catholic?  Don't know about that these days! not too many in chapel on sundays anymore.

ignore the whingers and yaps about Christmas - continue doing whatever it is you usually do at this time of year, forget the bah humbugs of whatever religion.

I see santa's in the states are losing a bit of beef - under pressure from the obesity police......such a load of tripe

eat drink be merry

[Fishbat]

Ireland Christian/Catholic?  Don't know about that these days! not too many in chapel on sundays anymore.

You dont have to go to mass to be a Christian, in fact a lot of people that I know that go to mass regularly, sometimes daily, are the most unchristian people you could meet, but the Priests like them and their contributions 

Thats very true alright, but can you really claim to be a Christian and not have anything to do with a church?......apart of course from the yearly Christmas conscience cleanser.

Born Christian yes

[J70]

Gaothdobhair has grasped the essential point of this debate. Its the out of sight,out of mind tactic. By driving certain outward expressions of the traditional irish and christian  Christmas out of the public space it is hoped to radically reduce there influence on society. This agenda is not driven by emigrants or people of other faiths. There are more sinister forces at work here, large corporations whose desire to promote a purely consumerist,materialist view of life have long been funding and promoting programmes to eliminate cultural and religious expressions of difference, as these hinder the development of there ability to advertise and promote sales of there products on a world wide basis. It is no accident that the sociology departments,out of which the so called  massive equality and political correctness has grown, are largely funded by big business. This method of social engineering is well tried and tested, the womens liberation movement being its previous big cause.

Are you saying women's lib was a bad thing?

[Billys Boots]

I think he's saying that when it eventually happened it wasn't motivated by fair play or equality, but by commerce coming to the decision that half the marketplace needed to be empowered.  I'm not sure he's 100% right, but he's definitely not 100% wrong.

[lynchbhoy]

Ireland Christian/Catholic?  Don't know about that these days! not too many in chapel on sundays anymore.

dunno about that,
I have seen a massive about turn in the attendances at mass over the last 15 years.
When I first started going to various churches in Dublin, it was all the older folk
but bit by bit, these old era religious folk have been augmented in number by younger folks, plus younger people with their kids

its not even new areas with population /housing booms either - not from visual evidence of numbers at masses between 'then' and now!

[Fishbat]

Ireland Christian/Catholic?  Don't know about that these days! not too many in chapel on sundays anymore.

dunno about that,
I have seen a massive about turn in the attendances at mass over the last 15 years.
When I first started going to various churches in Dublin, it was all the older folk
but bit by bit, these old era religious folk have been augmented in number by younger folks, plus younger people with their kids

its not even new areas with population /housing booms either - not from visual evidence of numbers at masses between 'then' and now!

Wouldn't be a bad thing if it would catch on everywhere

[J70]

Ireland Christian/Catholic?  Don't know about that these days! not too many in chapel on sundays anymore.

dunno about that,
I have seen a massive about turn in the attendances at mass over the last 15 years.
When I first started going to various churches in Dublin, it was all the older folk
but bit by bit, these old era religious folk have been augmented in number by younger folks, plus younger people with their kids

its not even new areas with population /housing booms either - not from visual evidence of numbers at masses between 'then' and now!

Wouldn't be a bad thing if it would catch on everywhere

Yes, we'd all be better off with a bit more irrationality and wishful thinking in our lives!

[Fishbat]

Ireland Christian/Catholic?  Don't know about that these days! not too many in chapel on sundays anymore.

dunno about that,
I have seen a massive about turn in the attendances at mass over the last 15 years.
When I first started going to various churches in Dublin, it was all the older folk
but bit by bit, these old era religious folk have been augmented in number by younger folks, plus younger people with their kids

its not even new areas with population /housing booms either - not from visual evidence of numbers at masses between 'then' and now!

Wouldn't be a bad thing if it would catch on everywhere

Yes, we'd all be better off with a bit more irrationality and wishful thinking in our lives!

Well, Maybe just a little bit