Joe Kernan - The mediator

stronghold · January 09, 2014, 11:36:25 PM

Just get this in before MH's Irish New article tomorrow. Get the truth for a change
MC Kenna cup regulations
The Dr McKenna Cup is a most prestigious competition organised by Comhairle Uladh. The competition has been running since 1926. It was designed as a competition to aid Ulster teams in pre season preparation. It has always been a competitive tournament with a noticeable correlation between success in the Dr McKenna Cup and success in National League and Ulster Championship.

Some years ago, the Ulster Council allowed universities to enter the competition. This allows our universities to prepare for the Sigerson Cup which commences immediately afterwards and to offer fresh competition to counties. Counties also benefit from the extra game time and the opportunity to view new players prior to the National Football League. The Ulster Council has repeatedly welcomed the addition of universities to the competition.

For the universities to be competitive, they need to be allowed to play their Sigerson Cup panels. The format of allowing universities to compete has been so successful that all other provinces now follow suit.

The Ulster Council control the competition and apply the regulations. Universities do not have the panel strengths to compete unless they are allowed to play with their full Sigerson panels. Universities are not allowed to play first year students on the Sigerson team. In the spirit of the GAA, the progress of those players who are selected to play for their college in this competition and who are deemed to be suitable for the county team, should not be hindered. In most instances, counties have been accommodating in the above and it is the wish of the Ulster Council for this to continue.

Competition Regulations:

(1)University Teams have first preference on Players.

(2)University Teams must submit their panel of twenty six players prior to 2nd December and counties will have the opportunity to respond by 9th December, the same date that they must submit their panel of twenty six players. All lists will be approved by Competition Control Committee on behalf of Comhairle Uladh at the December meeting. Teams must be drawn from the twenty six players approved by Comhairle Uladh.

(3) Comhairle Uladh will appoint a mediator who will facilitate dialogue in the event of a disputed player.

(4) A player who has competed with his university team in a similar competition in another province may not participate in the Dr McKenna Cup competition, in accordance with Rial 3.47 (b) T.O. 2011.

(5) A player may not play with both his University and County Team in the same competition.

(6) If teams finish level on points scoring averages will apply.

(7) The fourth placed team shall be determined from the runner up in each

Section using the formula at (5) above.

(

Refixtures shall be played at Floodlit Grounds.

(9) The Semi Finals and Final shall be played at Floodlit Grounds and include extra time if required.

(10) Failure to comply with Competition Regulations shall entail forfeiture of the game.

DuffleKing · January 10, 2014, 02:02:59 AM

The unis were invited in on the basis that they get access to their players. The counties endorsed the regulations and i don't remember any county ever challenging or requesting a rule change since. If MH et al want to change things then fair enough but surely in each of the 11 years he has managed Tyrone in the competition he could have countenanced proposing change through his county executive if that's what he wanted - god knows he can get them and the Ulster Council to do anything he wants.

T Fearon · January 10, 2014, 04:47:20 AM

Rule 1 makes it plain and simple.All it needs is enforcement

BennyHarp · January 10, 2014, 08:11:23 AM

Quote from: T Fearon on January 10, 2014, 04:47:20 AM
Rule 1 makes it plain and simple.All it needs is enforcement

So how do we enforce it? Ban Tyrone, Armagh and Monaghan? I think it would be a very brave decision to do that. Its clear the current system isnt working however, either enforce the rule and ban the counties or admit that the experiment has run its course and re-think it as just an inter county competition.

mackers · January 10, 2014, 09:38:55 AM

Quote from: BennyHarp on January 10, 2014, 08:11:23 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 10, 2014, 04:47:20 AM
Rule 1 makes it plain and simple.All it needs is enforcement

So how do we enforce it? Ban Tyrone, Armagh and Monaghan? I think it would be a very brave decision to do that. Its clear the current system isnt working however, either enforce the rule and ban the counties or admit that the experiment has run its course and re-think it as just an inter county competition.

It should be enforced like the other three provinces do it. Any team that breaks the rule should be thrown out the competition. Simples. The current sytem IS working in the other three provinces. Which part of that do you not understand?

T Fearon · January 10, 2014, 09:49:04 AM

Rules 2 and 3 are nonsensical, if Rule 1 is enforced. Requiring university teams to submit their panels a week before the County teams? Appointing a mediator? Why, if rule 1 clearly states that the Universities have first call on their players? Where is the scope for any dispute in what is a clear and unambiguous statement in rule 1?

It is time all provincial councils were scrapped as well, and the association run centrally from Croke Park. This would save time, money and prevent cliques emerging.

BennyHarp · January 10, 2014, 10:05:25 AM

Quote from: mackers on January 10, 2014, 09:38:55 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 10, 2014, 08:11:23 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on January 10, 2014, 04:47:20 AM
Rule 1 makes it plain and simple.All it needs is enforcement

So how do we enforce it? Ban Tyrone, Armagh and Monaghan? I think it would be a very brave decision to do that. Its clear the current system isnt working however, either enforce the rule and ban the counties or admit that the experiment has run its course and re-think it as just an inter county competition.
It should be enforced like the other three provinces do it. Any team that breaks the rule should be thrown out the competition. Simples. The current sytem IS working in the other three provinces. Which part of that do you not understand?

But its not working in this province - which part of that do you not understand? So you are happy to see a competiton without Tyrone, Armagh and Monaghan?

I agree with Tony about scrapping provincial councils but unfortunately that will never happen.

Just out of interest - does anyone have a list of each of the counties and their potential university players. It would be interesting to see which are most impacted on if the rule was enforced.

mackers · January 10, 2014, 10:21:59 AM

Quote from: BennyHarp on January 10, 2014, 10:05:25 AM
But its not working in this province - which part of that do you not understand? So you are happy to see a competiton without Tyrone, Armagh and Monaghan?

Believe me I do understand why it is not working in this province and not others. MH is sticking two fingers up at the Ulster Council and when other managers see him getting away with it they are doing it too.
I would be happy to see the competition played without any team who breaks the rules. If that includes my own county so be it. What's the point in having rules if they're not enforced? I believe that if all other counties knew that the Ulster Council were serious about enforcing this rule they would tow the line but while they see Tyrone getting away with this, it is open season and the thing has descended into a farce.

BennyCake · January 10, 2014, 10:29:25 AM

Didn't Tyrone get stripped of their McKenna cup title a few years ago, for not allowing players to play for their colleges?

Fuzzman · January 10, 2014, 10:32:38 AM

MH is like most successful managers, he's very single minded and puts his own needs for what he believes will get him the best out of his squad of players. This often means pissing off clubs and the county board within Tyrone as well as many outside Tyrone. He doesn't tend to do the nicey nicey approach and if you read his first book and about how he had to fight for his club to get formed you can partly understand why he is like that.

Secondly I think most of the players themselves know that unless they start of the season well playing under Mickey then it will be hard to get back into the team/squad. Players like Niall McKenna come to mind who I am sure knows his place on the Sigerson team is more or less guaranteed but not so with the Tyrone team. Therefore you can appreciate why he and many like him will want to play for their county over their college.

To be totally honest I am fed up listening to this every year and like many have said I think next year the Ulster council should call a meeting with all the managers and tell them that if they don't ALL sign up to allowing the colleges first call on players then they will just cancel the cup altogether. This will leave Mickey and the players in the awkward position of having to adhere to the rules otherwise they'll have NO games to try out players at all before the league.
Like I said Mickey tries to bend the rules as much as he can to get what he wants which I can understand. The problem here is he's allowed to do it without consequence. He probably puts the players in an awkward position of wanting to play for the county before the college but if the decision wasn't in their hands then they wouldn't have this worry of "abandoning their county manager".

BennyHarp · January 10, 2014, 10:34:10 AM

Quote from: mackers on January 10, 2014, 10:21:59 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 10, 2014, 10:05:25 AM
But its not working in this province - which part of that do you not understand? So you are happy to see a competiton without Tyrone, Armagh and Monaghan?
Believe me I do understand why it is not working in this province and not others. MH is sticking two fingers up at the Ulster Council and when other managers see him getting away with it they are doing it too.
I would be happy to see the competition played without any team who breaks the rules. If that includes my own county so be it. What's the point in having rules if they're not enforced? I believe that if all other counties knew that the Ulster Council were serious about enforcing this rule they would tow the line but while they see Tyrone getting away with this, it is open season and the thing has descended into a farce.

But the rules arent in place - that's the point. The Ulster council fudged the issue with a mediator which plainly hasn't worked. So its not working in this province and you can pin that on one man if you want but it papers over a badly organised competition where it was never really made clear if there was sanctions in place for County managers demanding their players. People are calling for bans but is that in the rules? The way things stand - the ulster council must re-write the rules with a ban on teams who dont let their players play with their uni or re-organise the competition without the universities. I dont think they have the balls to take on the county managers on this issue which then suggests that the Ulster council is at fault here and not the county manager who should always do what is best for his team.

On another point - i dont think its right to force a player to play with his university if he would prefer to play with his county - but sure it hardly matters what the players think.

mackers · January 10, 2014, 10:45:36 AM

Quote from: Fuzzman on January 10, 2014, 10:32:38 AM
To be totally honest I am fed up listening to this every year and like many have said I think next year the Ulster council should call a meeting with all the managers and tell them that if they don't ALL sign up to allowing the colleges first call on players then they will just cancel the cup altogether. This will leave Mickey and the players in the awkward position of having to adhere to the rules otherwise they'll have NO games to try out players at all before the league.
Like I said Mickey tries to bend the rules as much as he can to get what he wants which I can understand. The problem here is he's allowed to do it without consequence. He probably puts the players in an awkward position of wanting to play for the county before the college but if the decision wasn't in their hands then they wouldn't have this worry of "abandoning their county manager".

+1
Good man Fuzz, you are the voice of reason within our Tyrone posters.
I think everybody's fed up with it. Every county manager will want the best for their own team but I think MH isn't seeing the big picture here. If he keeps pursuing this agenda the McKenna Cup in its' current guise will be gone and he will have to re-think his position on challenge games pre-season.

Quote from: BennyHarp on January 10, 2014, 10:34:10 AM
On another point - i dont think its right to force a player to play with his university if he would prefer to play with his county - but sure it hardly matters what the players think.

Oner of the big things in this debate is that all of this is really unfair on the players. They are being pulled this way and that. If the Ulster Council just come down hard next year and enforce this rule then everybody will know where they stand, most importantly that includes the players.

Wildweasel74 · January 10, 2014, 08:22:50 PM

its very simple to sort out, any County team playing players selected for Uni is excluded from the competition. the message will soon come across, may ruin the McKenna cup for a year but a line has to be drawn, there are so many Tyrone posters on here who take Mickey harte word as gospel, i think if he said Black is white and vice versa, alot of posters would agree with him.

ck · January 10, 2014, 10:05:40 PM

So up in Ulster you have players, commentators and managers all at each others throats over this yet the one group of people who can actually sort it out sit idly by and say nothing, do nothing and are good for nothing. Ulster Council you are an embarrassment to the association!

Forget about throwing Tyrone out, Croke Park should throw the Ulster Council out!!