Donal Óg's Amalgamation Idea

[johnneycool]

No offence taken in the slightest Zulu. What I was trying to get across with Antrim was that without them essentially taking the lead and making big sacrifices, this won't work. Any move has to be driven by Antrim, not forced on them.

Had a listen to this link from the Antrim hurling topic earlier on and found it very interesting;

http://newstalk.ie/player/podcasts/Newstalk_Sport/Newstalk_Sport_SaturdaySunday_Highlights/24430/0/an_ulster_hurling_superteam

Sambo whilst Antrim centric makes a lot of valid points, one he could have elaborated on a bit more and its one I'd voice in terms of development squads in general is that if you take the best 3 or 4 hurlers out of a county panel to play in this amalgamation, what happens the other 20 plus lads left? Are they meant to kick their heels whilst the focus is on the latest new plaything?

He makes the point that Antrim played minor hurling in Leinster and were exposed to regular games at a high level and during his reign as minor manager he'd to take the Antrim minors for friendlies against the better opposition because there was no structures in place for them to do it otherwise. In the last few years Down minor hurlers have had to arrange friendlies against development squads in Dublin and Kilkenny to get this type of exposure.

Where would this amalgamation Donal O'g talks about get this exposure? Would it be a one off game akin to the provincial championships where you've 12 months between high quality fixtures or are we looking at a root/branch review of adult hurling structures where the provincial championships in Leinster and Munster are up for review?? I doubt that..

It'll be yet another band aid on an open wound until the serious hurling counties stop pulling the ladder up after themselves like the talks of changing Div1b to suit the big counties..

[LeoMc]

Where would the South Down and Fingal County teams fit in with these amalgamations?

[johnneycool]

Where would the South Down and Fingal County teams fit in with these amalgamations?

South Down are now defunct and have been for a few years.

[theskull1]

Did Donal think of that one as well? 

[Lone Shark]

When I read these ideas, I often wonder what people are shooting for. What I mean by that is that these ideas are often hatched as a means to solve a perceived problem, without necessarily thinking through the consequences or going one step further and trying to visualise "utopia" and asking if this is a step closer to that view or not.

I look at these ideas and they often strike me as built around the idea that "I don't know where this will take us, but it'll surely be better than where we are now".

Except we don't know anything of the sort.

For example, right now we have a senior hurling championship where Kilkenny are comfortably odds on to win out, and where there are between two and five more teams who have more than a 2% chance of winning an All Ireland. However in a sport where a little bit of difference can mean a lot on the field of play - not unlike rugby - it's always going to be this way. We all remember the mid 1990's with fondness, some of us more than others, but that period of "democracy" was a one off thing, an unprecedented period for the game and when you have genuine hurling counties like Wexford and Offaly gone so far off the pace, I'd struggle to believe that it's possible to create an amalgamation of any area in Ireland capable of challenging for an All Ireland.

Okay, granted you could create units that would be more competitive, who would be able to hold their own at McCarthy Cup level and maybe pick off a win against a mid-ranking opponent now and then. However I'd wager that if you asked a player from Down which would he rather do - win a Christy Ring Cup for his own county, or potter along at a higher level with no real goal other than maybe catching a team like Waterford or Dublin on a bad day, I'd be amazed if he didn't pick the former.

Secondly, what about the unintended consequences? Already, if you're a county player, you barely spend any time with your club. Imagine now you play for a "Connacht" team involving Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim and Sligo players - if that amalgamation is to be competitive, a hurler from Ballyhaunis or Athleague will spend as much time with his county team as Tommy Walsh does with Tullaroan or John Conlon does with Clonlara, and he'll spend no time at all with his club. This is hardly the GAA we want.

Aside from my suspicion regarding Donal Óg's motives, even if we take this at face value, nobody has asked the question of how they think this will work on a practical level. Running an intercounty team costs at least €100k per year, leaving aside administration - say we put together four regional teams, where is that €400k going to come from? Any sponsorship they get will be drawn out of the same pool of potential sponsors that counties now look to - that's a zero sum game. If an all-Ulster team was parachuted into the McCarthy Cup for example, Antrim are now a non-entity and they lose out hugely, while the counties that would be overtaken by Ulster but are now ahead of Antrim would also be hit.


As a general rule, we've a tendency in the GAA to change the landcape to address problems and then change again later when we realise what new problems we created inadvertently. If hurling in certain areas is struggling, then we need to do a better job of selling hurling to the people in that area. What we shouldn't do is airlift the few good hurlers the area already has and plonk them into some new multicolour jersey in the hope that their ability to give Wexford or Offaly a scare will inspire everyone, while simultaneously ensuring that they'll never again play a club game from May to August. 

[laoislad]

Kilkenny and Wexford hate each other to the extent that the only place in Ireland where the strawberries they sell on the side of the road are not "Wexford strawberries" is Kilkenny. In Kilkenny, the signs just say "strawberries" because Kilkenny people wouldn't buy Wexford strawberries.

Maybe you were taking the piss when you said that I dunno......but I was in Kilkenny on Monday and on the Castlecomer road into the City there was a girl on the side of the road selling strawberries with a big WEXFORD STRAWBERRIES sign.
Maybe she is part of some rebel group of strawberry sellers.

[Hardy]

Ah you found me out.

It was just something I was told in the pub.

[deiseach]

Ah you found me out.

It was just something I was told in the pub.

It passed the smell test.

[AZOffaly]

When I read these ideas, I often wonder what people are shooting for. What I mean by that is that these ideas are often hatched as a means to solve a perceived problem, without necessarily thinking through the consequences or going one step further and trying to visualise "utopia" and asking if this is a step closer to that view or not.

I look at these ideas and they often strike me as built around the idea that "I don't know where this will take us, but it'll surely be better than where we are now".

Except we don't know anything of the sort.

For example, right now we have a senior hurling championship where Kilkenny are comfortably odds on to win out, and where there are between two and five more teams who have more than a 2% chance of winning an All Ireland. However in a sport where a little bit of difference can mean a lot on the field of play - not unlike rugby - it's always going to be this way. We all remember the mid 1990's with fondness, some of us more than others, but that period of "democracy" was a one off thing, an unprecedented period for the game and when you have genuine hurling counties like Wexford and Offaly gone so far off the pace, I'd struggle to believe that it's possible to create an amalgamation of any area in Ireland capable of challenging for an All Ireland.

Okay, granted you could create units that would be more competitive, who would be able to hold their own at McCarthy Cup level and maybe pick off a win against a mid-ranking opponent now and then. However I'd wager that if you asked a player from Down which would he rather do - win a Christy Ring Cup for his own county, or potter along at a higher level with no real goal other than maybe catching a team like Waterford or Dublin on a bad day, I'd be amazed if he didn't pick the former.

Secondly, what about the unintended consequences? Already, if you're a county player, you barely spend any time with your club. Imagine now you play for a "Connacht" team involving Mayo, Roscommon, Leitrim and Sligo players - if that amalgamation is to be competitive, a hurler from Ballyhaunis or Athleague will spend as much time with his county team as Tommy Walsh does with Tullaroan or John Conlon does with Clonlara, and he'll spend no time at all with his club. This is hardly the GAA we want.

Aside from my suspicion regarding Donal Óg's motives, even if we take this at face value, nobody has asked the question of how they think this will work on a practical level. Running an intercounty team costs at least €100k per year, leaving aside administration - say we put together four regional teams, where is that €400k going to come from? Any sponsorship they get will be drawn out of the same pool of potential sponsors that counties now look to - that's a zero sum game. If an all-Ulster team was parachuted into the McCarthy Cup for example, Antrim are now a non-entity and they lose out hugely, while the counties that would be overtaken by Ulster but are now ahead of Antrim would also be hit.


As a general rule, we've a tendency in the GAA to change the landcape to address problems and then change again later when we realise what new problems we created inadvertently. If hurling in certain areas is struggling, then we need to do a better job of selling hurling to the people in that area. What we shouldn't do is airlift the few good hurlers the area already has and plonk them into some new multicolour jersey in the hope that their ability to give Wexford or Offaly a scare will inspire everyone, while simultaneously ensuring that they'll never again play a club game from May to August.

One of the points of this is that they'll be allowed do both, just like Declan O'Sullivan can play in the Kerry junior championship, and win it, with Dromid and also play in the County Senior Championship, and win it, with South Kerry.

The club impact is the one thing I would need to be assured on, but I don't think the county side of it is infeasible.

I too would be suspicious of Donal Óg's end game at times, but even a dog in the manger can mind the sheep sometimes.

[Zulu]

My biggest concern with this is that it would benefit the likes of Cork and Kilkenny more than Ulster hurling. If you are investing money into Ulster hurling then the end product shouldn't be a more competitive Liam McCarthy but a growth and improvement in hurling within some or all of the Ulster counties. I guess you can have both but I've my suspicions that money invested at the top end would mean you don't have it at the lower end to reap the benefits that the higher profile might result in.

[Lone Shark]

One of the points of this is that they'll be allowed do both, just like Declan O'Sullivan can play in the Kerry junior championship, and win it, with Dromid and also play in the County Senior Championship, and win it, with South Kerry.

The club impact is the one thing I would need to be assured on, but I don't think the county side of it is infeasible.

Perhaps I'm picking holes for the sake of picking holes now, but that's all very well when everybody is playing in the same system. When Dromid play Junior football, yeah they've lads missing playing for South Kerry - but South Kerry don't train collectively three or four times a week, as an intercounty team would do, so they still get to see their players intermittently. Secondly, Dromid are playing against other teams in the Kerry JFC who also miss players due to their call up to South Kerry, Mid Kerry, Feale Rangers, Shannon Rangers or whoever - that level playing field won't apply here.

What I mean by that is best illustrated by Down beating Kerry in the Ring final this year. I very much doubt that would have happened if most of the Down team were playing for an Ulster selection. It's not as if Kerry would have had the same issue, they'd have had complete access to their squad, since they wouldn't have been amalgamated with anyone. The nearest team to Kerry that doesn't hurl in the McCarthy Cup now is probably Kildare, or maybe Mayo as the crow flies. They're hardly going to amalgamate with either of them.