Question that's been bugging me, for our Gaelgoirs

[AZOffaly]

Lads, sorry about starting a new thread about this, but it's something that's bugged me for a long time, and I was reminded of it when hearing about St. James' being the proposed site of the new Childrens hospital.

Anyway, if I'm heading to the city centre, or Croker, on a day trip with the car, I tend to park in the Red Cow and get the Luas in as I find it handy. On the way in, every station is announced in Irish and in English, An Bo Dearg - The Red Cow, Cloigín Gorm - Blue Bell, etc etc. Then it comes to James' hospital and it is called Oispideal San Seamus. I'f I was asked what the Irish for Saint James is, I would have said Naomh Seamus. San is the spanish for Saint, as in San Francisco, San Diego etc.

So can our fluent Irish speakers tell me what's the story, as it bugs the shit out of me!

[5 Sams]

Thug mé sin faoi deara fosta ach faraor I have nae a scooby

Edit....

A wee bit more information here AZ...you have to read down through the thread for the info...not definitive though.

http://www.archiseek.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7034

[Billys Boots]

Wow, discrimination in the naming of (foreign) saints!  Rio eat your heart out!

[AZOffaly]

You learn something new every day. I had never heard of San being a form of Naomh in Irish. But then how come Mary is not Santa Muire, instead of Naomh Mhuire? Mary was from the Middle East after all. This doesn't make sense to me at all.

[IolarCoisCuain]

It's an inconsistency AZ, but nothing more than that. There are huge inconsistencies all through Irish, for a number of reasons. The chief of these is that it was an underground language for hundreds of years under British rule, and as such different norms developed in different places, without an overall academy to set standards.

The second reason, then, is because they made an effort to standardise the spelling / orthography of the language in the 1950s and ended up leaving it in a bigger mess than it was before. We are our own worst enemies in many ways. It'd break your bloody heart.

Anyway, the short answer to your question is that's it's probably just an inconsistency in a regional use of a term, rather than the foreign saint/native saint theory. That sounds a bit bogus to me.

They could have standardised it to Naomh Séamus, of course. It's not like they haven't done it before. The old name of Fairview in Dublin is "An Baile Bocht" but obviously someone thought that didn't sound too nice so they've come up with "Fionn Radharc" instead, which is a mongrel term if I ever saw one. But, as I say, we are own worst enemies when it comes to Irish.

[AQMP]

While St Gall's are OK, the Johnnies are in for a shock!

http://www.naomheoinclg.com/

[seafoid]

It's an inconsistency AZ, but nothing more than that. There are huge inconsistencies all through Irish, for a number of reasons. The chief of these is that it was an underground language for hundreds of years under British rule, and as such different norms developed in different places, without an overall academy to set standards.

The second reason, then, is because they made an effort to standardise the spelling / orthography of the language in the 1950s and ended up leaving it in a bigger mess than it was before. We are our own worst enemies in many ways. It'd break your bloody heart.

Anyway, the short answer to your question is that's it's probably just an inconsistency in a regional use of a term, rather than the foreign saint/native saint theory. That sounds a bit bogus to me.

They could have standardised it to Naomh Séamus, of course. It's not like they haven't done it before. The old name of Fairview in Dublin is "An Baile Bocht" but obviously someone thought that didn't sound too nice so they've come up with "Fionn Radharc" instead, which is a mongrel term if I ever saw one. But, as I say, we are own worst enemies when it comes to Irish.

The route to the
Cusack from O Connell St passes through An Baile Bocht and the name is very appropriate still...

[Billys Boots]

Ballybough is still there ...

[Shamrock Shore]

When a Pope is called John the Irish is 'Papa Eoin'

So Pope John Paul II as Gaelige was Papa Eoin Pól a dó. Not Papa Sean Pól a dó.

Similarly Mary, the mother of Jesus, is Muire - not Máire.

So there must be one rule for the saints and one rule for the sinners.

[Farrandeelin]

It's an inconsistency AZ, but nothing more than that. There are huge inconsistencies all through Irish, for a number of reasons. The chief of these is that it was an underground language for hundreds of years under British rule, and as such different norms developed in different places, without an overall academy to set standards.

The second reason, then, is because they made an effort to standardise the spelling / orthography of the language in the 1950s and ended up leaving it in a bigger mess than it was before. We are our own worst enemies in many ways. It'd break your bloody heart.

Anyway, the short answer to your question is that's it's probably just an inconsistency in a regional use of a term, rather than the foreign saint/native saint theory. That sounds a bit bogus to me.

They could have standardised it to Naomh Séamus, of course. It's not like they haven't done it before. The old name of Fairview in Dublin is "An Baile Bocht" but obviously someone thought that didn't sound too nice so they've come up with "Fionn Radharc" instead, which is a mongrel term if I ever saw one. But, as I say, we are own worst enemies when it comes to Irish.

The bit in bold is so true. I think the 'book' Irish should never have been allowed take over the language. Mind you the ones who practise Irish everyday in the Gaeltacht areas still have their own words and pronunciations for everything.

[IolarCoisCuain]

Forgot about Ballybough.  You can see how it'd happen though. Nightmarish part of the world.

I still call bullshit on Fionnradharc as translation for Fairview though.

[Eamonnca1]

If the 'saint' part stays in Spanish then why doesn't the name as well?  Or has 'san' just become a loanword from Spanish into Irish, like 'cafe' into English from French?

[Sportacus]

Saying as we are on the topic of translation, when I'm watching a match on tg4, commentators often use a phrase which sounds phonetically like 'hogig an counsa' (apologies).  What does that mean, crops up all the time.

[Sportacus]

Thanks HS.