paying for water??

[Denn Forever]

Yes of course and anyone who thinks the economy is headed for a big crash should go away and commit suicide...  - That the kind of "thinking" that annoys me.

Is that Bertie's quote? 

[deiseach]

To illustrate why cutting public spending in a recession is such a terrible idea, I direct all y'all to Paul Krugman:

Losing the Belt

A number of people have asked me for a quick, easy explanation of the difference between a government and a family — basically, what's wrong with the argument that when times are tough the government should tighten its belt.

I'm working on it. But maybe we can use Greece as a quick illustration of the point.

After all, you could view Greece as being like a family that overspent, got itself into debt, and whose members now have to do all the things families do when they get in that position: slash spending on inessentials, postpone medical care and other big expenses, quit their jobs and reduce their incomes — oh, wait.

That's the key point, of course. When a family tightens its belt it doesn't put itself out of a job. When a government tightens its belt in a depressed economy, it puts lots of people out of jobs; and this is a negative even from the government's own, narrowly fiscal point of view, since a shrinking economy means less revenue.

Now, you might argue that slashing government spending doesn't actually cost jobs — that is, you might argue that if you spent the past few years in a cave or a conservative think tank, cut off from any information about how austerity is working in practice. For the results of austerity policies in Europe have been as good a test as you ever get in macroeconomics, and without exception big cuts in government spending have been followed by big declines in GDP.

So lose the belt; it's a really bad metaphor.

[Declan]

I'd agree with Mr Krugman but it's not feasible to be paying these types of salaries -
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/organisations-are-top-heavy-with-high-earners-189877.html in the current climate
A society is more than a combination of individual economic units and this seems to get lost in the arguments.

I wouldn't trust any of our politicians to implement a fair and equitable taxation system or any other local service charges because with the very odd exception they have no clue what it's like to try and work, raise a family and live in 21st century Ireland on an average wage

[muppet]

Growth is the solution when in debt. Balancing the book reduces the need for growth. I take your point on the unemployed but balancing the books overnight could (in very easy Muppet economic theory) be as simple as a 30% cut for everyone. Paying the highest dole in the EU while going bankrupt is not going to last long.

I can't believe I'm reading this from you, muppet. "Balancing the books reduces the need for growth"? I don't know where to begin pointing out how wrong this is, so I'll limit myself to asking what private sector employer in their right mind would plan to take on new staff if they thought that every public sector worker and unemployed person in the land was going to have their spending power reduced by 30%?

It mightn't be long before they have their spending power reduced by a hell of a lot more than that.

The need for growth is to pay off the debt. The growth rate is seen as needing to exceed the interest rate of the borrowing (which you don't much hear about any more not because the logic doesn't still apply but merely because it is now an inconvenient truth). No borrowing would obviously reduce the addiction to nonexistent growth.

[deiseach]

The need for growth is to pay off the debt. The growth rate is seen as needing to exceed the interest rate of the borrowing (which you don't much hear about any more not because the logic doesn't still apply but merely because it is now an inconvenient truth). No borrowing would obviously reduce the addiction to nonexistent growth.

We need growth so we can get people back to work which will increase tax revenues and reduce social welfare payments allowing us to pay off the debt. As I said several posts ago, how will we get growth if everyone is cutting?

[muppet]

The need for growth is to pay off the debt. The growth rate is seen as needing to exceed the interest rate of the borrowing (which you don't much hear about any more not because the logic doesn't still apply but merely because it is now an inconvenient truth). No borrowing would obviously reduce the addiction to nonexistent growth.

We need growth so we can get people back to work which will increase tax revenues and reduce social welfare payments allowing us to pay off the debt. As I said several posts ago, how will we get growth if everyone is cutting?

Here is the choice;

a) The current plan, which is to grow quicker than the interest rate on our monstrous debt (completely unachievable), meanwhile they are also cutting everything anyway. Particularly hard hit are the 30s & 40s who are the engine of the economy but who are up to their eyes in debt and have a dwindling hope of ever repaying it due to the cuts/taxes etc;

or

b) something else.

a) has no chance whatsoever of working as our growth is less than 1% and we have to be back in the markets next year borrowing at less than our growth rate. b) is an earthquake to the economy but it removes the need to borrow and thus we are not dependent on achieving growth greater than a punitively high interest rate.

[Orangemac]

Morgan Kelly may be right again on this one. People sneered a few years ago when he said house prices could fall by 80% in some areas. I don't see anyone laughing now.

There is no easy way out but if you targeted for example cutting waste in the likes of number of councils/councillors, wages and pensions at the highest level of the public service and higher taxes for top earners and aimed to get the budget deficit down to about €5 billion in a few years where you could borrow from the IMF or China and tell the ECB you weren't paying back any more bank debt you would at least be in a position to grow.

The alternative is the current drip drip approach, stealth taxes, small cuts in social welfare for some,state pension untouched, constant increases in fuel taxes and people afraid to spend any money.

Would it be better to hit rock bottom quick and start working up or constantly drift towards the bottom for another 5 years? No one is going to lend Ireland money for a Roosevelt type growth plan.

[lawnseed]

i read somewhere that German giant Siemens offered to fit water meters to every Irish home/business for free as long as they got the administration of the scheme. it should be plain to anyone that the reason that the government want to formalise the water industry in ireland is so they can sell it to whomever gives them the biggest leg up or brown envelope. also fresh water is a scarce commodity on this planet control of this business could prove as valuable as oil or gas but then we gave that away for nothing as well. there was a bloke a couple of years ago who said that shipping our water to drought ridden countries could pay irelands debts off over a short period. it should also be pointed out that England charge more rates than northern ireland but almost a third of it has a permanent hosepipe ban. so increased charges don't necessarily mean better services or better quality water. its not a water charge its a tax

Ah yes Siemens , that well known charitable foundation ! You can be sure if they were offereing the metering for free there would be huges profits elsewhere.

unlike the irish government who want the irish people to buy the meters and then sell the company to siemens or similar company for a grubby brown envelope

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

i read somewhere that German giant Siemens offered to fit water meters to every Irish home/business for free as long as they got the administration of the scheme. it should be plain to anyone that the reason that the government want to formalise the water industry in ireland is so they can sell it to whomever gives them the biggest leg up or brown envelope. also fresh water is a scarce commodity on this planet control of this business could prove as valuable as oil or gas but then we gave that away for nothing as well. there was a bloke a couple of years ago who said that shipping our water to drought ridden countries could pay irelands debts off over a short period. it should also be pointed out that England charge more rates than northern ireland but almost a third of it has a permanent hosepipe ban. so increased charges don't necessarily mean better services or better quality water. its not a water charge its a tax

Ah yes Siemens , that well known charitable foundation ! You can be sure if they were offereing the metering for free there would be huges profits elsewhere.

unlike the irish government who want the irish people to buy the meters and then sell the company to siemens or similar company for a grubby brown envelope

I wonder is it a coincidence that the more articulate respondents were those in agreement with water charges, or at least had an understanding of why they may be needed.

The only two respondents in total opposition to water charges, argument were based on water fall from sky, uga-uga.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=-rAWmhlqNI0

[Maguire01]

The number of sensible responses in that video was actually surprising.

One that did stand out however, was the girl who said "you shouldn't have to pay for a natural resource". By that logic, we should have free oil and gas... and that's only the start of a long list you could make.

[Maguire01]

This is well worth a read for anyone interested in the water charges debate:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0421/1224315002198.html?via=rel

[Billys Boots]

This is well worth a read for anyone interested in the water charges debate:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0421/1224315002198.html?via=rel

That is interesting.