Veil ban in France.

[muppet]

Just a matter of interest, i dont remmeber anybody mention that Turkey which is a Muslim country and a memebr of the EU  the same as France but a secular state had banned burkas in the work place and in edcuational facilities such as universities.  I think they might have changed the law recently as regards this.  (i stand to be corrected all the same).  Some food for thought why people think France is out of order and Turkey is not.

For the record I dont agree with the ban.  Ban in all public spaces is a bit much.  Maybe a ban for work places.  I only say this because i left my two year old to play school and her teacher had an eye patch on, and she freaked out.  I can only imagine what she would have done if her teacher had converted to Islam and wore a full head dress

Turkey's not an EU member.

Even if it was, what f**king difference would it make? This is a French ruling, not an EU one.

Sorry, they have joined the Euro.  I thought the two went hand in hand.  I know its a French ruling, i was just making the point that people would be quick to criticise the French but said nothing when another european country did something similar just because its a Muslim country

The Euro has turned into a bit of a Turkey alright.

[Lar Naparka]

I think it is noteworthy that the reaction of the French general public has been very muted indeed. After all, France has a strong liberal sector, which is unsurprising given that it is the home of The Enlightenment and all that entails.
I had expected a right good barney now with the loony lefties with the righteous righties headbutting each other all over the place..
The problem I see is that for many to the left there a clash of ideologies:

Does one get morally indignant because the religious beliefs of the Muslim community are being interfered with or should one back the ban because doing otherwise degrades the status of women in French society?

It's a classic case of the dog with only one pee in the tank and two lamp posts to choose from.
So the reaction from the broad left has been muted and as a consequence, the conservative element has little to react to.
We had a situation with many parallels in Ireland ten to twelve years ago.
A FG member of Dublin County Council (Anne Devitt) issued a statement on the lifestyle and customs of the Traveller community. She had many criticisms to make, including her view that Traveller women were treated as second class members of their society and she went on to list a number of her reasons.
There was a very muted reaction for the element you would expect outrage from because many concerned faced a hell of a dilemma:
To claim that her statement represented charges of racism, bigotry etc. etc. directed at Travellers would imply support for the inferior status of women amongst them.
The result was that with a very muted reaction from the left and no consequent backlash from the right, no one gave a f**k about her statement and life continued on as before.
I wonder if this is going to  be the case in France?

[pintsofguinness]

Himucker

Thats a bit unfair pints.  Is that how you deal with anyone that doesn't have the same extreme liberal views as yourself.  Brand them ignorant or bigoted.

I don't consider myself to have "extreme liberal views" at all. I generally just don't care what someone else is doing if they're not hurting anyone or affecting me. 
I simply don't care what someone wears, I don't care what church someone goes to, I don't care if two men decide to shag each other etc etc - I just like to get on with my own life and I don't understand why anyone else cares.

I have nothing against anyones religious beliefs.  If someone wants their face covered thats fine by me, but it is hardly practical for every aspect of society. 

Why not?

The example I gave is a good one.  I could guarantee you that if any parent from our culture left their child to nursery school tommorrow and you could only see the teachers eyes because she was wearing a burka they would express some concern.  Am I a bigot for saying this?

No, you're not a bigot for saying that. I have no doubt parents from culture would be getting out the pitch forks if someone was wearing a burka. That doesn't make it right. 

As i said before i  am against the ban, but what really annoys me is when people express legitimate points they are branded ignorant and pigeon holed along with the racists.  We say nothing about little silly social norms that we all conform to in the workplace, whether it be you must be clean shaven for work or no face piercings but when somebody mentions the impracticability of a custom from and ethnic or religious minority in our own culture, racist, ignorant and biggot is screamed down your throat.

I don't know any jobs that have those rules, isn't the rule normally that you're to be presentable? Smart looking etc. 

This is wrong and its political correctness gone mad. The question should not be is it OK for a Muslim women to wear a burka in a certain aspect of our society.  It should be, is it OK for anybody to wear it.  If the answer is yes, then brilliant, if its no for other aspects then we need to accept that.

That's right up there with "I'm not racist but..." or "some of my best friends are.........but..."

[gallsman]

I don't consider myself to have "extreme liberal views" at all. I generally just don't care what someone else is doing if they're not hurting anyone or affecting me. 

What exactly is an "extreme liberal"? 

[gallsman]

Just a matter of interest, i dont remmeber anybody mention that Turkey which is a Muslim country and a memebr of the EU  the same as France but a secular state had banned burkas in the work place and in edcuational facilities such as universities.  I think they might have changed the law recently as regards this.  (i stand to be corrected all the same).  Some food for thought why people think France is out of order and Turkey is not.

For the record I dont agree with the ban.  Ban in all public spaces is a bit much.  Maybe a ban for work places.  I only say this because i left my two year old to play school and her teacher had an eye patch on, and she freaked out.  I can only imagine what she would have done if her teacher had converted to Islam and wore a full head dress

Turkey's not an EU member.

Even if it was, what f**king difference would it make? This is a French ruling, not an EU one.

Sorry, they have joined the Euro.  I thought the two went hand in hand.  I know its a French ruling, i was just making the point that people would be quick to criticise the French but said nothing when another european country did something similar just because its a Muslim country

When did this happen?

[Puckoon]

I don't consider myself to have "extreme liberal views" at all. I generally just don't care what someone else is doing if they're not hurting anyone or affecting me. 

What exactly is an "extreme liberal"? 

More to the point - when did this happen???

[pintsofguinness]

I don't consider myself to have "extreme liberal views" at all. I generally just don't care what someone else is doing if they're not hurting anyone or affecting me. 

What exactly is an "extreme liberal"? 

More to the point - when did this happen???

I don't know what an extreme liberal is.

When did what happen puck?

[Eamonnca1]

Sorry, they have joined the Euro. 

Au contraire.

[HiMucker]

To be honest pints I dont really care either!  If there wasnt a thread about it I wouldn have said anything, but is that not the good thing about discussion forums?  Here look if you cant fathom why a burka would be impractical for any aspect of society then there is no point discussing further.  I have been described easy going manytimes but I truly admire your care free nature, no joke.   But il just give you one last example to try and persude you.  TV channels as well as other businesses are in the habbit of employing good looking presenters and weather forecast women, to show a "warm front" so to speak.  A muslim women goes for the job, she extremely well qualified and the company would like to give her the job, but obviously they dont want her wearing the burka.  Is it then religious/racial descrimination not to employ her?

[pintsofguinness]

To be honest pints I dont really care either!  If there wasnt a thread about it I wouldn have said anything, but is that not the good thing about discussion forums?  Here look if you cant fathom why a burka would be impractical for any aspect of society then there is no point discussing further.  I have been described easy going manytimes but I truly admire your care free nature, no joke.   But il just give you one last example to try and persude you.  TV channels as well as other businesses are in the habbit of employing good looking presenters and weather forecast women, to show a "warm front" so to speak.  A muslim women goes for the job, she extremely well qualified and the company would like to give her the job, but obviously they dont want her wearing the burka.  Is it then religious/racial descrimination not to employ her?

Of course it is, just like it would be sex discrimination if a man was passed up for the job because he wasn't a good looking woman.
btw, most presenters are average looking imo!

[HiMucker]

To be honest pints I dont really care either!  If there wasnt a thread about it I wouldn have said anything, but is that not the good thing about discussion forums?  Here look if you cant fathom why a burka would be impractical for any aspect of society then there is no point discussing further.  I have been described easy going manytimes but I truly admire your care free nature, no joke.   But il just give you one last example to try and persude you.  TV channels as well as other businesses are in the habbit of employing good looking presenters and weather forecast women, to show a "warm front" so to speak.  A muslim women goes for the job, she extremely well qualified and the company would like to give her the job, but obviously they dont want her wearing the burka.  Is it then religious/racial descrimination not to employ her?

Of course it is, just like it would be sex discrimination if a man was passed up for the job because he wasn't a good looking woman.
btw, most presenters are average looking imo!

All them weather forecast girls on TG4 average looking!! Your winding me up now arent ye!!