Leaving Neverland - a documentary on sexual abuse

[Dolph1]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Going by the MJ standard If you are potentially guilty of a crime that could mean your music gets pulled.
While I would not be in favour of such censorship I would not be too sad if this meant the near shutdown of the Rap & RnB industry.

or should it be depending of your category of crime of if you were convicted. Is violent assault of women ok like Chris Brown? Or murder like Snoop Dogg?

[Main Street]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Phil Spector is going to spend most of the rest of his life in prison for murder, assuming he lives to a very good age.

We listen to his xmas album every year. Still love all those 60s hits he masterminded for the Ronettes, Crystals, Darlene Love, Righteous Brothers etc. The Beatles/Lennon stuff too.

Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin.

JLL got hammered for that marriage, his music career was stunted for years, but compared to Jackson's pedophilia, that relationship was puritanical.
People make their own choices re listening to Jackson's music. I'm not familiar with his music. There are some people who just cannot watch a Woody Allen film. I have watched Woody Allen movies, I might watch some again but I'd agree that he should not be honoured such are the known facts and clouds around him.
My contention would be that Jackson should not be honoured,  statutes in a mall, waxed images, that type of stuff.

[Hound]

Given the documentary was so one-sided, I think everyone who watched it should also read this, to get another side of the story:

https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2019/02/09/michael-jackson-estate-letter-of-facts-debunking-leaving-neverland/

On balance, I think I still believe the guys. It is a pity the documentary made no effort to be balanced. Robson and Safechuck definitely have credibility issues, especially Robson. But just because they have credibility issues doesn't mean they are now lying.

[screenexile]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Going by the MJ standard If you are potentially guilty of a crime that could mean your music gets pulled.
While I would not be in favour of such censorship I would not be too sad if this meant the near shutdown of the Rap & RnB industry.

or should it be depending of your category of crime of if you were convicted. Is violent assault of women ok like Chris Brown? Or murder like Snoop Dogg?

What has the Rap and RnB industry done to you that you think it should be shut down??

[Dolph1]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Going by the MJ standard If you are potentially guilty of a crime that could mean your music gets pulled.
While I would not be in favour of such censorship I would not be too sad if this meant the near shutdown of the Rap & RnB industry.

or should it be depending of your category of crime of if you were convicted. Is violent assault of women ok like Chris Brown? Or murder like Snoop Dogg?

What has the Rap and RnB industry done to you that you think it should be shut down??

It's not music. It's noise. Still don't know why the #metoo movement hasn't gone after it if it really wanted to make its point.

[screenexile]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Going by the MJ standard If you are potentially guilty of a crime that could mean your music gets pulled.
While I would not be in favour of such censorship I would not be too sad if this meant the near shutdown of the Rap & RnB industry.

or should it be depending of your category of crime of if you were convicted. Is violent assault of women ok like Chris Brown? Or murder like Snoop Dogg?

What has the Rap and RnB industry done to you that you think it should be shut down??

It's not music. It's noise. Still don't know why the #metoo movement hasn't gone after it if it really wanted to make its point.

Interesting. . . just because you don't like it they should shut it down??

Plenty of good RnB music around!! Irish Country music now there's something they should shut down!!

[Dolph1]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Going by the MJ standard If you are potentially guilty of a crime that could mean your music gets pulled.
While I would not be in favour of such censorship I would not be too sad if this meant the near shutdown of the Rap & RnB industry.

or should it be depending of your category of crime of if you were convicted. Is violent assault of women ok like Chris Brown? Or murder like Snoop Dogg?

What has the Rap and RnB industry done to you that you think it should be shut down??

It's not music. It's noise. Still don't know why the #metoo movement hasn't gone after it if it really wanted to make its point.

Interesting. . . just because you don't like it they should shut it down??

Plenty of good RnB music around!! Irish Country music now there's something they should shut down!!

In your haste to virtue signal you didn't read what I actually said. I don't agree with censorship but if they did there would be a silver lining.

Lil' Pump and Drake are no match for TR Dallas and Big Tom (RIP).

[screenexile]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Going by the MJ standard If you are potentially guilty of a crime that could mean your music gets pulled.
While I would not be in favour of such censorship I would not be too sad if this meant the near shutdown of the Rap & RnB industry.

or should it be depending of your category of crime of if you were convicted. Is violent assault of women ok like Chris Brown? Or murder like Snoop Dogg?

What has the Rap and RnB industry done to you that you think it should be shut down??

It's not music. It's noise. Still don't know why the #metoo movement hasn't gone after it if it really wanted to make its point.

Interesting. . . just because you don't like it they should shut it down??

Plenty of good RnB music around!! Irish Country music now there's something they should shut down!!

In your haste to virtue signal you didn't read what I actually said. I don't agree with censorship but if they did there would be a silver lining.

Lil' Pump and Drake are no match for TR Dallas and Big Tom (RIP).

I asked a question I'm not quite sure how you can call it virtue signalling!!

They're no match for the Beastie Boys and Dr. Dre but hey different strokes for different folks!

PS. You forgot Philomena and Uncle Hugo!

[Main Street]

Given the documentary was so one-sided, I think everyone who watched it should also read this, to get another side of the story:

https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2019/02/09/michael-jackson-estate-letter-of-facts-debunking-leaving-neverland/

On balance, I think I still believe the guys. It is a pity the documentary made no effort to be balanced. Robson and Safechuck definitely have credibility issues, especially Robson. But just because they have credibility issues doesn't mean they are now lying.

The documentary was not and never intended to be about balance. It's a documentary about the story of the two men and their families, their story, their words. The facts of the story up to Jackson's bedroom door are undisputed, nobody else but the boys and Jackson were a witness to what happened behind that door. Jackson is dead. This is the testimony of the boys.
Nobody else can speak of what happened to the boys behind the door.

That Michael Jackson estate  link you posted is quite frankly a poorly presented juvenile document, contains inaccuracies, uses inflamed language and attacks points which have no relevance to the documentary.

eg "all (their lawsuits)  of which have now been dismissed with prejudice"
However it is not mention why the lawsuit of 2013 was dismissed, the dismissal had nothing to do with the merits of the evidence.


Interestingly enough,  Bill Dworwin who has investigated 4,000 sex exploitation cases was the lead investigator in 2003, he was convinced of the veracity of the boy Chandler's account,  he was also a witness to the set up in Jackson's house and made some interesting observations in the 2nd half of this article.
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/3080078/ns/dateline_nbc-newsmakers/t/new-look-dark-accusations/#.XIZxdi10eqm
If this were the lair of a priest, bishop, teacher or sports coach, Chandler's evidence alone would have been enough to establish guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

[Dolph1]

If Jackson is going to be taken off the airwaves, where is the line going to be?

Going by the MJ standard If you are potentially guilty of a crime that could mean your music gets pulled.
While I would not be in favour of such censorship I would not be too sad if this meant the near shutdown of the Rap & RnB industry.

or should it be depending of your category of crime of if you were convicted. Is violent assault of women ok like Chris Brown? Or murder like Snoop Dogg?

What has the Rap and RnB industry done to you that you think it should be shut down??

It's not music. It's noise. Still don't know why the #metoo movement hasn't gone after it if it really wanted to make its point.

Interesting. . . just because you don't like it they should shut it down??

Plenty of good RnB music around!! Irish Country music now there's something they should shut down!!

In your haste to virtue signal you didn't read what I actually said. I don't agree with censorship but if they did there would be a silver lining.

Lil' Pump and Drake are no match for TR Dallas and Big Tom (RIP).

I asked a question I'm not quite sure how you can call it virtue signalling!!

They're no match for the Beastie Boys and Dr. Dre but hey different strokes for different folks!

PS. You forgot Philomena and Uncle Hugo!

Hugo Duncan has had more chart success than the beastie boys one career hit. I still find it bizarre that folks can listen to music which preaches hatred like "Dr" Dre. Different strokes indeed.

[Hound]

Given the documentary was so one-sided, I think everyone who watched it should also read this, to get another side of the story:

https://mjjjusticeproject.wordpress.com/2019/02/09/michael-jackson-estate-letter-of-facts-debunking-leaving-neverland/

On balance, I think I still believe the guys. It is a pity the documentary made no effort to be balanced. Robson and Safechuck definitely have credibility issues, especially Robson. But just because they have credibility issues doesn't mean they are now lying.

The documentary was not and never intended to be about balance. It's a documentary about the story of the two men and their families, their story, their words. The facts of the story up to Jackson's bedroom door are undisputed, nobody else but the boys and Jackson were a witness to what happened behind that door. Jackson is dead. This is the testimony of the boys.
Nobody else can speak of what happened to the boys behind the door.

That Michael Jackson estate  link you posted is quite frankly a poorly presented juvenile document, contains inaccuracies, uses inflamed language and attacks points which have no relevance to the documentary.

eg "all (their lawsuits)  of which have now been dismissed with prejudice"
However it is not mention why the lawsuit of 2013 was dismissed, the dismissal had nothing to do with the merits of the evidence.

Agreed, the documentary wasn't supposed to be balanced, I just said I would have preferred if it was.
Just as the documentary was a must-see, the article is a must read. Both are biased, but at least you get two sides of the story. And the fact of the matter is Robson in particular only turned on Jackson when his career started to go down the swanny. Doesn't mean he's lying, but does mean he deserves extra scrutiny before believing him.

I would have liked a documentary that gave more insight into the two lads who replaced Robson and Safechuck. Brett Barnes and Macauley Culkin. Given that Robson and Safechuck accounts were so similar regarding how Jackson groomed them and they were at completely different times, so I think it is very interesting to hear that Barnes and Culkin both admitted to regularly sharing a bed with Jackson, but are adamant that there was no sexual contact. I'd really like to hear their stories more developed. I find it almost impossible to believe that Jackson treated the four of them differently. I'd be inclined to believe that either Robson and Safechuck are lying or Barnes and Culkin are.

[Main Street]

The many Jackson estate documents lack the support of educated input from a recognized and respected sex abuse expert, they amount to  scatty accusatory bluster without a base in science re the psychology of child abuse.
Every knowledgeable sex abuse practitioner who has commented, finds the erratic and conflicting actions of those two men over the last 20 years, not only not conflicting with their current testimony but supporting it.

The account of the grooming of Robson and Safechuck are very similar to the accounts of the grooming of Gavin Arvizo  and Chandler.
A maid's son Jason Francia was abused by Jackson in 1993, paid off with $2m, yet testified in 2005 and stood up well under persistent cross examination -  from the lawyer who defended Crosby and Tyson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SQXcPNt9NQ

Neverland is on sale now and they can't find a buyer, even changed the name to Sycamore Valley Ranch and reduced the price from $100m to $30m.

[Capt Pat]

I think it is obvious now in relation to the kids Jackson did hang out with that he apparently didn't molest that he was grooming them and seeing what he could get away with. Just because he didn't molest them doesn't mean he didn't want to.

[Hound]

I think it is obvious now in relation to the kids Jackson did hang out with that he apparently didn't molest that he was grooming them and seeing what he could get away with. Just because he didn't molest them doesn't mean he didn't want to.

That might be right, but to say it's "obvious", given Barnes and Culkin are adamant nothing happened, is quite the stretch!
Also Robson and Safechuck both stated sexual abuse started within a few days of the start of the shared sleeping arrangements.