Tom Crean & the Antarctic Explorers (formerly Charlie Bird)

[Mentalman]

When one looks at the antartic explorers shakleton is rarely mentioned, i have a few atlases and many explorers are mentioned but shakleton not, scott and the norwegians and the guys that were the first to go across antartic from coast to coast were but not shakleton.

Only surmising, but similar to the way Crean was conveniently forgotten about by Irish historians  because he was in the British forces at the time, perhaps Shackleton is equally as shunned by British historians becuase he was Irish, if from the ascendency? His story is at least as heroic as Scott's IMHO, if not more so in that he saved his men?

Absolutely not [bold].

It is a mistake to describe Shackleton as (merely) being "from the [Anglo-Irish] ascendency". His fame following his 1909 expedition was such that he was Knighted by the King upon his return - the very mark of his acceptance within the British Establishment.

And in any case, whilst born in Ireland, Shackleton's family moved to England when he was 10, where he was educated at a reasonably well-known public school (Dulwich College), before joining the Merchant Navy, then the Royal Navy.

During his career of exploration, he was one of the best-known and most celebrated people in the UK; it's just that his fame was somewhat short-lived, due to that of Scott eclipsing him.

Thanks for that EG, realised he was Knighted etc. but until the last 10-20 years Scott's deeds were far more celebrated, just postulated that he was seen in some way as un-British during the revisionism of the 70's and 80's, that's certainly more than hinted at in some of the books and programs of recent times....then again maybe that's pure revisionism also, or merely an attempt tp "reclaim" him as Irish, or that part of him that was Irish. Unlike the Iron Duke you would get the impression that he wasn't ashamed or more accurately embarrassed by his Irishness, be that Anglo or otherwise.

[Mentalman]

Thanks for the info lads, i know its off topic but how sickened must of Scott been when he arrived at the South Pole only to find the Norwegians had been there a month?

Can only imagine the dismay, though Amundsen was an absolutely genius, he lived with inuits to learn their ways before he made his attempt, using natural breathable animal furs etc. wheras Scott and his party were badly kitted out.

Not entirely true. Whilst there is no doubt that Amundsen was a genius in many respects, and inter alia had better equipment, Scott was not by contrast the blind fool that some make him out to be.

For example, for footwear his party had "Finneskos" - boots made entirely of fur, soles and all. And their sleeping bags were made from Reindeer Fur. Quite honestly, however, such was the extreme nature of the conditions they encountered, that even Inuit clothing would have been pushed to its very limits at the South Pole.

Or to put it another way, it is not coincidence that human beings have survived for thousands of years in the Artic, but never in Antarctica.

Seem to remeber a lot of canvas jackets etc., probably the height of technology, but I'd agree, Scott wasn't some feckless fool, perhaps I should have said not as well kitted out as Amundsen, rather than badly kitted out.

[Evil Genius]

An other reason I heard why Admunsun reached the pole first was that he used dogs to pull the sleds.   Scott et al were a bit squeamish about using and eating dogs for survival.

Scott did actually have some dogs on his expedition, it's just that he wasn't reying exclusively upon them, like Amundsen. In fact, with Dogs, Ponies and Motorised Sleds, which Scott pioneered, there is a case for saying Scott was  avoiding putting all his eggs in one basket etc.

As for his "squeamishness", Scott would have had no compunction in eating the dogs had they been with him on the final stretch.  After all, he took the ponies as far as he could on the way South, then slaughtered them for food, to sustain them the rest of the way out and back, as planned.

Unbelievable bravery and fortitude from Crean.  Go and see the one-man Tom Crean show if it ever comes your way.

Many expeditions were lucky to have had Tom with them.

I must confess I don't really know much about Crean, but I shall certainly put that right! Sounds like a genuine hero though tbf, that seems to have been more the norm than the exception with the people who set out on these trips.

[Evil Genius]

An other reason I heard why Admunsun reached the pole first was that he used dogs to pull the sleds.   Scott et al were a bit squeamish about using and eating dogs for survival.

Yep, learned from the Inuits. Basically he realised that they already survived in these conditions 365, so why reinvent the wheel, whereas the British expedition was more or less doomed before they started out..

Absolutely not so [bold].

In fact, Scott and his team came remarkably close to getting back alive, however a combination of circumstances conspired against them. Some of these were avoidable/predictable, such as ponies being less suitable than dogs, or the advantage of taking four on the final stretch, rather than five.

However, some of them were outside of Scott's control, most notably the weather (1911 was historically an especially cold summer), plus technical failures (eg leaky fuel caps on their paraffin cans, or the motorised sled engines overheating(!)).

Not sure they thought they knew better, but it was a time when Empire gave people delusions of grandeur.

There is no doubt that many people in Britain took a very jingoistic attitude to such matters.
However, Scott had no such illusions. What you have to remember is that he has previously explored Antartica in the Discovery Voyage, so was a good deal more experienced than many other of his contemporaries.
And, of course, he cannot be blamed for the hero-worship/idolisation etc which occurred after his death.

[Mentalman]

There is no doubt that many people in Britain took a very jingoistic attitude to such matters.
However, Scott had no such illusions. What you have to remember is that he has previously explored Antartica in the Discovery Voyage, so was a good deal more experienced than many other of his contemporaries.
And, of course, he cannot be blamed for the hero-worship/idolisation etc which occurred after his death.

Also to be fair no more jingoisitc than most of the Western powers at the time, considering the waste of human life that was WW1 was just around the corner.

[Evil Genius]

R. Huntford would probably be the most prominent polar historian if you're interested in some further reading:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_15?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=roland+huntford&sprefix=roland+huntford

To be read with a sceptical mind.

There is no doubt that after Scott's death, there was almost an industry which set out to revere his memory and make a "Great British Hero" out of him, despite his having his share of (human) faults.

However as is often the case, there was a reaction against this, with Huntford being in the vanguard. From what I gather, Huntford is a bit of a polemicist, as much concerned with "scoring points" (and making his own reputation), as he is with establishing exact historical truth.

Anyhow, whilst he is doubtless worth reading*, the pendulum has since swung back somewhat from his revisionist account, with the likes of Rannulph Fiennes leading the fightback.

* - Although not entirely reliable as an historical record (the Author was too close to events), there is no more thrilling book on Polar Exploration than "The Worst Journey in the World", an account of Scott's attempt at the Pole written in 1922 by Apsley Cherry-Garrard, who had been part of the Expedition. It's a bit of a monster of a book (750 pages, with Intro etc), but it is gripping from start to finish. My version is published by Vintage Books, but it's never been out of print.

[Denn Forever]

If only Scott had Crean.

http://www.tomcrean.com/antartichero.html

http://www.annascaul.net/tom_crean_antarctic.php

This is the part I am most amazed by.

On 18 February they arrived at Corner Camp, still 35 statute miles (56 km) from Hut Point, with food running low. With only one or two days' food rations left, but still four or five days' man-hauling to do, they decided that Crean should go on alone to fetch help. With only a little chocolate and three biscuits to sustain him, without a tent or survival equipment,[34] Crean walked the distance to Hut Point in 18 hours, arriving in a state of collapse.[33][35] He reached safety just ahead of a fierce blizzard, which probably would have killed him, and which delayed the rescue party by a day and a half.[32] The rescue was successful, however, and Lashly and Evans were both brought to base camp alive. Crean modestly played down the significance of his feat of endurance. In a rare written account, he wrote in a letter: "So it fell to my lot to do the 30 miles for help, and only a couple of biscuits and a stick of chocolate to do it. Well, sir, I was very weak when I reached the hut."[36]

[muppet]

I am a big fan of Tom Crean but Shackleton was an Irishman too and sang Irish songs with Crean on the boat. I am confused at the (deserved) heroic treatment of Crean albeit belatedly, while Shackleton is seen as somehow not Irish.

It is most accurate (imo) to describe Shackleton as "an Irish-born Briton".

There are a few of us around still...

It is still accurate to call him Irish. My point was the programme seemed to ignore this.

[Kerry Mike]

RTE player

Part 1
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1096086

Part 2
http://www.rte.ie/player/#v=1096610

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

I'd seen this pic with a caption earlier in the week (which I can't find again now), where the caption read something like (seal thinking to itself): "Ah lord jeez, has the clubbing season begun yet!?"

[AQMP]

I attended a Christian Brothers Primary School in Belfast in the 1960s and early 70s.  One of the Brothers, a Kerryman (my mind's a bit hazy now but might have been a Cahirciveen man) regaled us with the story of Crean back then.  Seems I'm in the minority of having been aware of his expolits from a young age.

[Hardy]

I'd seen this pic with a caption earlier in the week (which I can't find again now), where the caption read something like (seal thinking to itself): "Ah lord jeez, has the clubbing season begun yet!?"

Seal: "F*** me! I thought I had a crappy set of whiskers."

[Olly]

I attended a Christian Brothers Primary School in Belfast in the 1960s and early 70s.  One of the Brothers, a Kerryman (my mind's a bit hazy now but might have been a Cahirciveen man) regaled us with the story of Crean back then.  Seems I'm in the minority of having been aware of his expolits from a young age.

Was it Spillane?

[armaghniac]

In fact, Scott and his team came remarkably close to getting back alive, however a combination of circumstances conspired against them. Some of these were avoidable/predictable, such as ponies being less suitable than dogs, or the advantage of taking four on the final stretch, rather than five.

However, some of them were outside of Scott's control, most notably the weather (1911 was historically an especially cold summer), plus technical failures (eg leaky fuel caps on their paraffin cans, or the motorised sled engines overheating(!)).

There was a lot of good stuff on the the programme on BB2 last Sunday "the secrets of Scott's hut", catch up with it on iPlayer (if in occupied 6)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b010n2lm/hd/The_Secrets_of_Scotts_Hut/

Scott was trying out different approaches, but he was surprised that Admudsen had managed to get so many dogs in good shape to the Antarctic and he knew that this would probably mean he would not be first to the Pole. He carried on the scientific work though.