Preferred system for All Ireland Football championship

[muppet]

3)

Two leagues Connacht/Ulster & Leinster/Munster

Top 2 Ulster teams play Ulster Final
Top 2 Connacht teams play Connacht Final
Top 2 Leinster teams play Leinster Final
Top 2 Munster teams play Munster Final

Then 2 semi finals and the All-Ireland Final.

Advantages:

Each team guaranteed a minimum number of Championship games each year;
Provincial rivalries maintained to a large extent;
Traditional provincial finals retained;
Traditional knock-out system to find a winner;
Games could be run over a fixed period where each county would know the weekends required and thus could schedule club fixtures with better planning;
This would please sponsors, TV companies & the money men;

Disadvantages;

A team could finish a season not making the knock-out stages but still ahead of a team that makes say a Connacht Final;
Relegation & Promotion to a 2nd tier would be necessary;
This would please the sponsors, TV companies and the money men

There'd be little enough variety and certain problems of the current structure would be considerably worsened. In particular Galway/Mayo and Kerry/Cork would cruise through the league stage and meet for the provincial title and semi-final spot just about every year with the remaining counties of those provinces never getting a look in.

I'm not so sure. The likes of Sligo/Ros could be highly motivated against the Ulster teams (look at Wicklow this year) which would mean Galway/Mayo would have to match any good results they get. I wouldn't enjoy watching Mayo having to get a result against say away to Derry or Donegal away to make a Connacht Final.

Sorry, but the Sligos iof football get to their occasional Connacht finals by getting an easy draw or else by pulling off one or two surprise wins. Do you seriously believe there wouldn't be a reduction in the frequency of their reaching the Connacht final if they can only do so by outperforming Galway or Mayo over the course of around ten games (or however many they would play)?. No easy draws and a couple of surprise wins is unlikely to be be enough. This is why Sligo may occasionally finish in the top two Connach teams in the provincial championship but are unlikely to finish ahead of either Galway or Mayo in the NFL.  League formats are always more likely to end up with the best teams at the top than knock-out and the power imbalance with the big two going for the two final places in this case would make that a problem.

This is the problem.

People think you can create a system which makes it harder for the strong teams to come through. You can't. The strong teams will in all probability, almost always come through.

If you accept that you can move on and create a new fair system for all, otherwise you start off looking for a system that handicaps strong teams, which will never happen.

Yes, this is exactly my point. Playing a league with the top two Connacht teams and top too Munster teams into the respective finals won't work because it is "too fair" and yet at the same time also not fair enough overall. The sides outside the big two are not good enough to challenge them over the course of a league most of the time, and it would be boring - wth knock-out the weaker sides can get an easy draw or a couple of surprises.

Your system suffers from trying to accommodate the unbalanced provincial championships, which is just making life difficult for yourself if you want to create a league which is "a new fair system for all" in your words. I don't object to incorporating a round-robin element to the championship, but trying to do that within the provincial championship framework makes it very hard to create a competitive and interesting structure.

The problem is creating a realistic proposal that:

* keeps the provincial councils happy by having provincial elements to it and more particularly provincial finals, otherwise it would be sunk straight away;
* maintains some level of local rivalry otherwise a run of poor attendances in say a pure open draw would put any reform back on the shelf for decades;
* increases the number of games for all teams;

I know it is not a thing of beauty but while say a 32 county open draw looks great in theory, I think it would flop after a couple of years of weak attendances.

[Zulu]

keeps the provincial councils happy by having provincial elements to it and more particularly provincial finals, otherwise it would be sunk straight away

I don't see why this should be an issue, because in any new sysytem the provincial councils could just be allocated a percentage of the gates. You could do this either by dividing the total amount (the gates for all games) or divided on provincial grounds (e.g a Mayo V Tyrone games is divided between the Connacht and Ulster Councils whereas a Mayo V Ros game is gived to teh Connacht council only).

maintains some level of local rivalry otherwise a run of poor attendances in say a pure open draw would put any reform back on the shelf for decades;

I feel the linking of the league and championship is best but any format that has groups is bound to have some local match ups and many attractive games wouldn't involve significantly greater distances for fans. I'd say most counties are within a hour or two of at least 10 other counties so this shouldn't be a major problem.

[Carbery]

Counties suffering under flawed systems
Provincial prisons have kept generations of players down and deprived them of real opportunities to flourish, all the while giving other counties an in-built advantage by Peter Makem

By maintaining the provincial system coupled with the primacy of the knockout system in the championship, the GAA continues to abandon the ideals of the founding fathers and has deprive generations of players from the majority of counties of the facility to develop at the highest level.

There can be no equality of opportunity for the GAA people of Ireland while these two factors dominate, based as they are on a system and a mindset that works backwards from the turnstiles with players and supporters at the bottom.

The GAA as an institution is dominated by the provincial councils in keeping with the old Irish tradition of provincially strong chiefs and kings and family lines creating a weak centre to the overall detriment of the country down through history.

The GAA people on the ground have done spectacular work throughout Ireland especially in the past half century in creating facilities that are the envy of other codes. But this has been betrayed by the great fault line in the Association, the construction of the competitions.

Ulster, for example, is a football province where all nine counties are in contention. In Connacht things generally circulate between Galway, Mayo and Roscommon. In Leinster, Dublin, Meath, Offaly and Kildare have traditionally dominated. Munster is a hurling province where Kerry are a lone footballing county with Cork 70/30 in favour of hurling. Kilkenny are a lone hurling county in Leinster since the decline of Wexford and Offaly as we wait for Dublin's re-emergence.

Instead of having the freedom of all of Ireland, the nine counties in Ulster for example were locked into a single unity, into a straightjacket where only one emerges annually. This same system is an advantage for Kerry who have an inbuilt facility of access to championship football every year and enter at All Ireland quarter final level.

But the provincial system is only part of what is deeply wrong. Up until a few years ago, one half of all teams at all levels, county and club, hurling and football, senior, junior etc were eliminated after a single championship game. The continuation of the provincial prisons has in reality deprived generations of footballers and counties from real access to their own game, a set-up that is a serious indictment of the GAA.

What players really want is four or six serious guaranteed championship games in May and June before the knockout stages begin. But instead of this logical, fundamental, natural, normal development, the back door was introduced which made an intolerable system into a pantomime. Of 10 possible alternatives, the qualifiers would naturally be at the bottom of the pile, and dismissed out of hand. But it was introduced to keep the Provincial system intact and add to the 'Turnstile' philosophy. Players and supporters did not enter the equation.

The complaint is not against Kerry, but against the system that affords them such privilege and constant access to championship football. Kerry footballers are not born naturally superior. The self-worth and status conferred by their constant access to championship football ensures that young people will naturally gravitate toward it from an early age as their major mode of self expression. It is the same with Brazilian soccer and the reason why there is an endless supply to fill the annual market. Yet the reality is that they win their All Irelands by default, that is, they win because the majority of other counties, as stated, do not have the same facility to develop. The vast majority of footballers for over a century have been cut off by the very championship that should have given them real opportunity and access. This is a genuine betrayal.

The watchword is equality of opportunity. This is not being provided because of the double limitations imposed by the provincial and knockout system. While the majority of teams find their main outlet the B competition of the National league – a series of glorified challenge games – the football championship is stacked in favour of Kerry. How many footballers from the other counties down the decades have been deprived of Sam Maguires, All Star awards, press adulation, great acclamations, and so on because of an accident of birth?

The GPA too have gone off totally in the wrong direction. Instead of creating a campaign for equality for all teams with a proper championship structure, they are merely working hand in glove with the flawed system, supporting privilege and provincial imbalance. In my experience, county players are treated quite well while they are in the championship. Their main complaint is lack of proper championship competition. In hurling, the famed Munster final has almost totally lost its meaning and while the five hurling counties there fight out between them, Kilkenny can sit back and chose their time to peak.

Kilkenny hurlers and Kerry footballers work hard at their game and achieve outstanding levels of performance. But my argument is that the system provides them with the facility to so develop on an ongoing basis.

Why GAA delegates at every level have been silent for a century on the in-built lack of equality at all levels, I find it hard to work out.

Officials and delegates see themselves as the protectors of an inheritance, and that to interfere or disrupt is to destroy and betray. But such misplaced loyalty has to end because it can be an actual betrayal of the people they are supposed to represent, people who are largely victims of the cause. The championship structure is worse than at any time. Munster hurling is in disarray.

Dublin football, the great bread-basket of Croke Park, must wish to leave the provincial set up for good, and there is general resentment and disillusionment at the imposition of the idiotic qualifiers as a resolution of the old knock-out impasse.

Peter Makem is a former manager of Armagh
Sunday Tribune
November 8, 2009

[muppet]

keeps the provincial councils happy by having provincial elements to it and more particularly provincial finals, otherwise it would be sunk straight away

I don't see why this should be an issue, because in any new sysytem the provincial councils could just be allocated a percentage of the gates. You could do this either by dividing the total amount (the gates for all games) or divided on provincial grounds (e.g a Mayo V Tyrone games is divided between the Connacht and Ulster Councils whereas a Mayo V Ros game is gived to teh Connacht council only).

maintains some level of local rivalry otherwise a run of poor attendances in say a pure open draw would put any reform back on the shelf for decades;

I feel the linking of the league and championship is best but any format that has groups is bound to have some local match ups and many attractive games wouldn't involve significantly greater distances for fans. I'd say most counties are within a hour or two of at least 10 other counties so this shouldn't be a major problem.

There would be no need for any Provincial Councils then. If there are no Provincial Championships why have Provincial Councils? We would only need the county boards and a national authority which we could call the HSEGAA.

[Zulu]

That's prossibly the way it should be, but since that's not going to happen and there are provincial championships at club, IC minor and U21 we can keep them. They possibly would have a role in administering the GAA at provincial level anyway, i.e. promoting the games, employing development officers, organizing games held at grounds within their province etc. So they can still play a role but we don't need our championships run on a provincial basis to justify the existence of provincial councils.

[muppet]

That's prossibly the way it should be, but since that's not going to happen and there are provincial championships at club, IC minor and U21 we can keep them. They possibly would have a role in administering the GAA at provincial level anyway, i.e. promoting the games, employing development officers, organizing games held at grounds within their province etc. So they can still play a role but we don't need our championships run on a provincial basis to justify the existence of provincial councils.

My point is that if you propose to scrap running the Championship on a provincial basis, you will definately not have the support of the Provincial Councils and will be sunk before you start. Realpolitik rather than revolution.

[INDIANA]

totally sunk I agree. I can't see the entire scrapping of the provinical championships in one foul swoop. I also think a complete 32 county open draw 8*4 system would be a shambles.  Somewhere between the two is what is needed. Grouping 2 provinces together would be a goos start as suggested above.

[Zulu]

My point is that if you propose to scrap running the Championship on a provincial basis, you will definately not have the support of the Provincial Councils

You're probably right but if they benefit financial then I can't see their objection, an dI think they would benefit in the long run.

I can't see the entire scrapping of the provinical championships in one foul swoop. I also think a complete 32 county open draw 8*4 system would be a shambles.  Somewhere between the two is what is needed. Grouping 2 provinces together would be a goos start as suggested above.

I don't want to flog the horse here but what is wrong with linking the league and championship? If we could have two seperate championships after we would have a cracking competition IMO.

Here is how I see the perfect system (if I was coming up with a format from scratch) running:

The leagues run as they are with the division 1 teams and the top 6 in division 2 along with the 2 promoted teams from division 3 making up the 16 teams which compete for Sam. You seed each team based on league performance, so the winner of div. 1 is seed 1 and the second placed team in div. 3 is seed 16.

This means that every game in the leagues are important as even if your safe from relegation but can't win you division a higher placing could mean a weaker opponent in the championship.

The championship is played as straight knockout, so it goes from 16 teams to 8 to 4 to 2 (AI final). That's 11 games to win the AI, few if any of them, completely unimportant and every team is guaranteed at least 8 good games.

Other advantages:

Every team has something to go for i.e. their division.

The weaker teams have a championship they can realistically win but isn't tainted by the association that your only in it because you got knocked out of the championship.

The championship for the bottom 16 is played the same as the AI proper and we double up games where posible to ensure bigger crowds and offer the opportunity for the likes of Waterford or Tipp to play in CP as part of a double header.

It ain't perfect because some counties won't want to play in a secondary competition despite having no hope of winning the main one but under this format only division 4 teams can't win Sam and therefore only teams that really struggle anyway are affected.

[Sionnach]

3)

Two leagues Connacht/Ulster & Leinster/Munster

Top 2 Ulster teams play Ulster Final
Top 2 Connacht teams play Connacht Final
Top 2 Leinster teams play Leinster Final
Top 2 Munster teams play Munster Final

Then 2 semi finals and the All-Ireland Final.

Advantages:

Each team guaranteed a minimum number of Championship games each year;
Provincial rivalries maintained to a large extent;
Traditional provincial finals retained;
Traditional knock-out system to find a winner;
Games could be run over a fixed period where each county would know the weekends required and thus could schedule club fixtures with better planning;
This would please sponsors, TV companies & the money men;

Disadvantages;

A team could finish a season not making the knock-out stages but still ahead of a team that makes say a Connacht Final;
Relegation & Promotion to a 2nd tier would be necessary;
This would please the sponsors, TV companies and the money men

There'd be little enough variety and certain problems of the current structure would be considerably worsened. In particular Galway/Mayo and Kerry/Cork would cruise through the league stage and meet for the provincial title and semi-final spot just about every year with the remaining counties of those provinces never getting a look in.

I'm not so sure. The likes of Sligo/Ros could be highly motivated against the Ulster teams (look at Wicklow this year) which would mean Galway/Mayo would have to match any good results they get. I wouldn't enjoy watching Mayo having to get a result against say away to Derry or Donegal away to make a Connacht Final.

Sorry, but the Sligos iof football get to their occasional Connacht finals by getting an easy draw or else by pulling off one or two surprise wins. Do you seriously believe there wouldn't be a reduction in the frequency of their reaching the Connacht final if they can only do so by outperforming Galway or Mayo over the course of around ten games (or however many they would play)?. No easy draws and a couple of surprise wins is unlikely to be be enough. This is why Sligo may occasionally finish in the top two Connach teams in the provincial championship but are unlikely to finish ahead of either Galway or Mayo in the NFL.  League formats are always more likely to end up with the best teams at the top than knock-out and the power imbalance with the big two going for the two final places in this case would make that a problem.

This is the problem.

People think you can create a system which makes it harder for the strong teams to come through. You can't. The strong teams will in all probability, almost always come through.

If you accept that you can move on and create a new fair system for all, otherwise you start off looking for a system that handicaps strong teams, which will never happen.

Yes, this is exactly my point. Playing a league with the top two Connacht teams and top too Munster teams into the respective finals won't work because it is "too fair" and yet at the same time also not fair enough overall. The sides outside the big two are not good enough to challenge them over the course of a league most of the time, and it would be boring - wth knock-out the weaker sides can get an easy draw or a couple of surprises.

Your system suffers from trying to accommodate the unbalanced provincial championships, which is just making life difficult for yourself if you want to create a league which is "a new fair system for all" in your words. I don't object to incorporating a round-robin element to the championship, but trying to do that within the provincial championship framework makes it very hard to create a competitive and interesting structure.

The problem is creating a realistic proposal that:

* keeps the provincial councils happy by having provincial elements to it and more particularly provincial finals, otherwise it would be sunk straight away;
* maintains some level of local rivalry otherwise a run of poor attendances in say a pure open draw would put any reform back on the shelf for decades;
* increases the number of games for all teams;

I know it is not a thing of beauty but while say a 32 county open draw looks great in theory, I think it would flop after a couple of years of weak attendances.

Well I can understand your points there and it sounds appealing in many ways. But I just suspect the Munster and Connacht games  (apart from the finals) would become little more interesting or well-supported than the NFL, while the sides outside the big two in those provinces would be left with nothing much that they could realistically aim for and you could easily see football declining in those counties..

[Zapatista]

http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/championship/2009/1111/holmesc.html
Are you in favour of an open draw to decide pairings in the Football and Hurling Championships?

Yes -  71% (7,614 votes)
No  - 13% (1,396 votes)
Leave well enough alone! -  16% (1,718 votes)

Total Votes: 10,728