A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[weareros]

Dublin has pretty much created an all-island economy, kept north in EU single market, got EU to already approve unification, so that the process will be more seamless. It's building an energy connector to France, and supplying whole island with one grid. As I said, the North has to do its bit too and start reducing a 40% civil service workplace. And actually decide they are Irish become the last census was pretty lame with 29% Irish only. Are the 20% "Northern Irish only" unity supporters or Our Wee Country supporters? Would be nice to see more who see themselves as Irish. Even tne worst west Brit Free Stater knows they are Irish.

Where does that figure come from?

There are approx. 23,000 civil servants in the north - just below 3% of the workforce.

The public sector as a whole is about ten times larger, but still comes in at only ~27% of the workforce up here.

Meant public sector which is almost half the private sector workforce (220,000 to 595,000) compared to the South 350,000 to 2,300,000. 27% overall, correct there Ed.

That is just not sustainable in a UI and it's up to the North to ready itself for unity too and start changing that ratio.

Are all teachers, doctors and nurses in the South regarded as public sector?

Yes. However I don't know what all the extra public servants are actually doing in the North. It's not in education or nursing because republic has 5x more teachers and 4x more Nurses for a population of 5m versus 1.9m.

[armaghniac]

Dublin has pretty much created an all-island economy, kept north in EU single market, got EU to already approve unification, so that the process will be more seamless. It's building an energy connector to France, and supplying whole island with one grid. As I said, the North has to do its bit too and start reducing a 40% civil service workplace. And actually decide they are Irish become the last census was pretty lame with 29% Irish only. Are the 20% "Northern Irish only" unity supporters or Our Wee Country supporters? Would be nice to see more who see themselves as Irish. Even tne worst west Brit Free Stater knows they are Irish.

Where does that figure come from?

There are approx. 23,000 civil servants in the north - just below 3% of the workforce.

The public sector as a whole is about ten times larger, but still comes in at only ~27% of the workforce up here.

Meant public sector which is almost half the private sector workforce (220,000 to 595,000) compared to the South 350,000 to 2,300,000. 27% overall, correct there Ed.

That is just not sustainable in a UI and it's up to the North to ready itself for unity too and start changing that ratio.

Are all teachers, doctors and nurses in the South regarded as public sector?

Yes. However I don't know what all the extra public servants are actually doing in the North. It's not in education or nursing because republic has 5x more teachers and 4x more Nurses for a population of 5m versus 1.9m.

It would he hugely interesting for someone to identify where this surplus is, if it exists.

[HokeyPokey]

I don't know the demographics of the public sector, but I would assume it would be older. It could be managed by having a hiring freeze for the transition (in both jurisdictions potentially), incentivise early retirement and voluntary redundancies and encouraging more to go part time.

[Ed Ricketts]

Dublin has pretty much created an all-island economy, kept north in EU single market, got EU to already approve unification, so that the process will be more seamless. It's building an energy connector to France, and supplying whole island with one grid. As I said, the North has to do its bit too and start reducing a 40% civil service workplace. And actually decide they are Irish become the last census was pretty lame with 29% Irish only. Are the 20% "Northern Irish only" unity supporters or Our Wee Country supporters? Would be nice to see more who see themselves as Irish. Even tne worst west Brit Free Stater knows they are Irish.

Where does that figure come from?

There are approx. 23,000 civil servants in the north - just below 3% of the workforce.

The public sector as a whole is about ten times larger, but still comes in at only ~27% of the workforce up here.

Meant public sector which is almost half the private sector workforce (220,000 to 595,000) compared to the South 350,000 to 2,300,000. 27% overall, correct there Ed.

That is just not sustainable in a UI and it's up to the North to ready itself for unity too and start changing that ratio.

Are all teachers, doctors and nurses in the South regarded as public sector?

Yes. However I don't know what all the extra public servants are actually doing in the North. It's not in education or nursing because republic has 5x more teachers and 4x more Nurses for a population of 5m versus 1.9m.

Not to pick on you again, but I don't think those numbers are right either.

The north has around 21,000 teachers. The south about 72,000. So X3.4 more teachers, not X5.

The north has about 28,000 nurses. The south about 79,000. So X2.8 more nurses, not X4.

The north has a lot of problems and will have to make adjustments in the event of reunification. But it's not nearly in as bad a shape as many like to make out, and therefore any adjustments will not need to be as painful as many like to make out.

It's important that the facts and figures are accurate and available to all those involved in this discussion. As Brexit demonstrated, dis- and mis- information can be decisive in a tight ballot.

[armaghniac]

"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?

[Tony Baloney]

"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?

Very little.

[Main Street]

"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?

Very little.

Those are the 2nd level teachers.  Nurses & Doctors should not be jammed  in alongside that lot of wasters.

[johnnycool]

Interesting viewing.

A UI and the GAA.

[armaghniac]

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/11/catholics-outnumber-protestants-in-northern-ireland-workforce-for-the-first-time-study/

[93-DY-SAM]

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/07/11/catholics-outnumber-protestants-in-northern-ireland-workforce-for-the-first-time-study/

It wouldn't be hard esp. at this time of the year when all they are interested in is drug dealing an stacking pallets.

[LeoMc]

"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?

Very little.

I would say the multiple health trusts, education authorities, councils, the duplicated education structures etc would be a not inconsiderable percentage.

[armaghniac]

"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?

Very little.

I would say the multiple health trusts, education authorities, councils, the duplicated education structures etc would be a not inconsiderable percentage.

It is important that someone identifies exactly where this extra is. Are health trusts less efficient than those in England, Scotland or Wales. Are councils? Does the dupicated education structure show up in smaller class sizes? More administrators?

it does not seem to be class size anyway, the health system is worse, so where exactly is this extra?

[RadioGAAGAA]

It is important that someone identifies exactly where this extra is. Are health trusts less efficient than those in England, Scotland or Wales. Are councils? Does the dupicated education structure show up in smaller class sizes? More administrators?

it does not seem to be class size anyway, the health system is worse, so where exactly is this extra?

Indeed - you'd think any half competent governing body would be rather anxious to get to the root of it to minimise waste.

Of course, with Stormont being on the backburner for so many years, we've had our equally feckless civil servant elite on the case. Which means there are no doubt detailed dossiers on exactly this sitting on various minister's tables right now.

[armaghniac]

It is important that someone identifies exactly where this extra is. Are health trusts less efficient than those in England, Scotland or Wales. Are councils? Does the dupicated education structure show up in smaller class sizes? More administrators?

it does not seem to be class size anyway, the health system is worse, so where exactly is this extra?

Indeed - you'd think any half competent governing body would be rather anxious to get to the root of it to minimise waste.

Of course, with Stormont being on the backburner for so many years, we've had our equally feckless civil servant elite on the case. Which means there are no doubt detailed dossiers on exactly this sitting on various minister's tables right now.

The point is that most people on the public payroll in any country are in education and health, rather than in bureaucracy. There may be waste in education and health, but there is no over provision of it, so where are the extra people that everyone talks about? SF have the Minister for Finance, it should be in their interest to identify this, whereas the unionists like having this as an obstacle to Irish unity.

[tbrick18]

"In December 2023, public sector jobs as a proportion of the population were 11.7%, which compares to 8.8% for the UK as a whole."
So,what do these extra people do?

Very little.

I would say the multiple health trusts, education authorities, councils, the duplicated education structures etc would be a not inconsiderable percentage.

I'm not sure what size the management structures in the health trusts are, but I think on the education structures we're not talking a lot of people. The number of teachers, classroom assistants etc would not change if the education was all brought under a single umbrella and only a percentage of that governance layer would be reduced.
Having multiple health trusts for a place the size of NI is madness I think.
But merging the education system I don't believe would impact the overall number of governance roles significantly.