Poll

Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
125 (55.1%)
No
88 (38.8%)
Undecided
14 (6.2%)

Total Members Voted: 227

Author Topic: Would you be in favour of a second tier?  (Read 37296 times)

Farrandeelin

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #510 on: May 21, 2019, 12:43:17 PM »
What the hell do people* actually want?
Tiered championships where the B winners get into the last 8?

League and championship tied together - staggered rounds FA Cup like?

Division 3/4 automatically enter tier 2 even though they might win and still be in those two divisions I.e not promoted to division 2?

Tier 2 automatically get promoted to tier 1 even though they may be stuck in Division 3/4?

Three tiers?

Four tiers - saving drawing the line and make the league the be all and end all - home and away etc?

Or something else?

*  Those of you who want a tiered championship.
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Rossfan

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #511 on: May 21, 2019, 01:01:50 PM »
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 01:04:59 PM by Rossfan »
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

joemamas

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #512 on: May 21, 2019, 01:52:50 PM »
Was listening to the Sligo V Galway game on the radio last Sunday.

The Commentator was describing how Sligo were lined out ultra-defensively in the first half that was despite playing at home and with the wind.

I couldn’t help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.
Keep the provincials if that what it takes, but surely there must be at least a better option up for discussion.

Not picking on Sligo, a very proud footballing county, that does not have a huge Gaelic football base.

As I mentioned on a previous occasions, it will require a multi facet effort to “right” the wrongs of the last ten years in terms of money being spent on player and more importantly county development. The GAA in Croke Park , need to flood division 3 and 4 teams with coach’s, and implement a use them or lose them attitude.

Surely there are enough administrative people in the GAA to figure this out.

Captain Obvious

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #513 on: May 21, 2019, 02:30:43 PM »
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know, the league is also meant to be the main competition where "weaker" teams develop and improve.  Championship use to be an old fashion out knock competition but with all the chopping and changing of recent years you now have the introduction of a back door taking the edge off provincial championship games and the daftness of group stage for the last eight that more less stopped one of the best things about any competition which is the story of the underdog.

Hound

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #514 on: May 21, 2019, 03:08:50 PM »
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario. 

Esmarelda

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #515 on: May 21, 2019, 03:31:42 PM »
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?

magpie seanie

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #516 on: May 21, 2019, 03:50:01 PM »
Was listening to the Sligo V Galway game on the radio last Sunday.

The Commentator was describing how Sligo were lined out ultra-defensively in the first half that was despite playing at home and with the wind.

I couldn’t help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.
Keep the provincials if that what it takes, but surely there must be at least a better option up for discussion.

Not picking on Sligo, a very proud footballing county, that does not have a huge Gaelic football base.

As I mentioned on a previous occasions, it will require a multi facet effort to “right” the wrongs of the last ten years in terms of money being spent on player and more importantly county development. The GAA in Croke Park , need to flood division 3 and 4 teams with coach’s, and implement a use them or lose them attitude.

Surely there are enough administrative people in the GAA to figure this out.


Galway and Sligo set up the exact same way. It was like for like. In both halves of the game. Galway pushed up on Sligo's kickout, Sligo didn't push up on Galway's - that was essentially the only difference in setup. To me it's not "ultra" defensive - that's when you lose the ball and everyone just turns and runs back to their 45 which I understand Down did for large periods on Sunday. A lot of commentators don't understand what's happening in front of their eyes.

I also am unsure that more coaches is the answer. In the smaller counties it's about maximising your resources and bringing every player along as far as you can - not picking groups and working on them. A rising tide lifts all boats.

Hound

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #517 on: May 21, 2019, 04:57:50 PM »
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
So the Inter champs should just stay at inter and not go up to senior the following year? 🤔

That would be ridiculous.

They don’t need to aim to be the best senior team in year 1, but they do aim to be better than some of the incumbents and then improve again the following year. It does happen that a team could come from 9th - 12th one year and champions the next, but it’s very rare across most sports.

Esmarelda

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #518 on: May 21, 2019, 05:22:33 PM »
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
So the Inter champs should just stay at inter and not go up to senior the following year? 🤔

That would be ridiculous.

They don’t need to aim to be the best senior team in year 1, but they do aim to be better than some of the incumbents and then improve again the following year. It does happen that a team could come from 9th - 12th one year and champions the next, but it’s very rare across most sports.
My comment was tongue in cheek; it's the line being thrown around with very little foundation, see Wicklow, London and Waterford for example.

RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #519 on: May 22, 2019, 01:06:45 PM »
I couldn’t help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.

Ah I dunno. Maybe some of our Sligo folks on the board could chip in - but I'd have thought that having the chance of knocking yer neighbour off his perch would still be one worth having.

Does it not make the Connacht Championship win of 2007 all the sweeter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I'd my way, I'd go back to straight knockout and do away with the qualifiers and bin the subpar8s (which was always a stupid idea). If the teams that are beat in provincial R1/R2 games are put into another competition then so be it.

Bottom line is - a variation on this tiered system has been tried before - the Tommy Murphy was not well followed. Those clamouring for change would do well to learn from history (recent history at that) and not merely brush it aside with "ahh, but 'promote' it right" - whatever the f**k that means. Big games by-and-by large sell themselves.
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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #520 on: May 22, 2019, 01:27:31 PM »
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know,

Most team sports are professional, where the league format is ultimately how wages are paid. Ireland is too small to sustain professional GAA leagues, along with a club scene.

Captain Obvious

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #521 on: May 22, 2019, 01:53:17 PM »
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know,

Most team sports are professional, where the league format is ultimately how wages are paid. Ireland is too small to sustain professional GAA leagues, along with a club scene.

My point is leagues are important in other team sports be it professional or not and NFL is the best format the GAA have and those at the top should put more time and energy into to making that more important than ever changing the championship to see what will work.

LeoMc

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #522 on: May 22, 2019, 02:12:42 PM »
I couldn’t help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.

Ah I dunno. Maybe some of our Sligo folks on the board could chip in - but I'd have thought that having the chance of knocking yer neighbour off his perch would still be one worth having.

Does it not make the Connacht Championship win of 2007 all the sweeter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I'd my way, I'd go back to straight knockout and do away with the qualifiers and bin the subpar8s (which was always a stupid idea). If the teams that are beat in provincial R1/R2 games are put into another competition then so be it.

Bottom line is - a variation on this tiered system has been tried before - the Tommy Murphy was not well followed. Those clamouring for change would do well to learn from history (recent history at that) and not merely brush it aside with "ahh, but 'promote' it right" - whatever the f**k that means. Big games by-and-by large sell themselves.
The Tommy Murphy was a losers cup, any tiered completion has to be the only show in town for those entering it.

RadioGAAGAA

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #523 on: May 22, 2019, 07:10:51 PM »
The Tommy Murphy was a losers cup, any tiered completion has to be the only show in town for those entering it.

Which means doing away with the provincial championships. While that might be OK in Leinster 'cos the GAA have f**ked everyone over except the Dubs - that doesn't mean the rest aren't at least semi-competitive. Out in Connacht, every team in the last 25 years has won it.

Munster isn't as competitive and Leinster has went to crap - but even it has 6 different winners in the last 25 years.

Junior/Intermediate/Senior works at club level because you still have representatives from each county.


If - for the sake of argument - on the inter county scene in Ulster you had 1 junior county, 5 intermediate and 3 senior - then what kinda junior championship would you have? Pretty difficult.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2019, 07:16:42 PM by RadioGAAGAA »
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general_lee

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Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
« Reply #524 on: May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM »
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.