Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 156711 times)

AQMP

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #315 on: January 16, 2016, 11:32:09 AM »
But there already is a N Irish identity.  It can be seen at fleg protests and Windsor Pk for NI saccer games.

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #316 on: January 16, 2016, 12:51:31 PM »
That is a unionist/loyalist identity,precisely the kind whose political influence should be reduced and indeed nullified.The real N Irish identity is politically neutral and common to all traditions.Key elements of this would be,honesty,decency,work ethic,religious belief,respect,tolerance,plain speaking,thriftiness,temperance etc.

No wides

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #317 on: January 16, 2016, 01:29:46 PM »
That is a unionist/loyalist identity,precisely the kind whose political influence should be reduced and indeed nullified.The real N Irish identity is politically neutral and common to all traditions.Key elements of this would be,honesty,decency,work ethic,religious belief,respect,tolerance,plain speaking,thriftiness,temperance etc.

Amazing the person championing this from what I can see based on his posts, possesses none of these traits.

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #318 on: January 16, 2016, 02:09:05 PM »
That is a unionist/loyalist identity,precisely the kind whose political influence should be reduced and indeed nullified.The real N Irish identity is politically neutral and common to all traditions.Key elements of this would be,honesty,decency,work ethic,religious belief,respect,tolerance,plain speaking,thriftiness,temperance etc.
Tony as Niall Tobin once observed "that pup is dead!" NI identity would have to be entirely unionist in outlook...give it up.

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #319 on: January 16, 2016, 02:49:34 PM »
Northern Irish is not the same as Northern Ireland even.The Northern Irish identity,(and a large percentage of the population described themselves so at the last census count) is neither unionist nor nationalist (if it was those people would have described themselves as British or Irish in the census),in fact one of the hallmarks of Northern Irish identity is feeling neither British nor Irish,or at least prioritising your N Irishness over your Britishness or Irishness.

AQMP

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #320 on: January 16, 2016, 02:55:17 PM »
That is a unionist/loyalist identity,precisely the kind whose political influence should be reduced and indeed nullified.The real N Irish identity is politically neutral and common to all traditions.Key elements of this would be,honesty,decency,work ethic,religious belief,respect,tolerance,plain speaking,thriftiness,temperance etc.

This must be a wind up!

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #321 on: January 16, 2016, 10:00:51 PM »
And the 26 county variety who bankrupted the state are any better how? Repeat after me A United Ireland is not going to happen in any of our lifetimes.

The 26 county state is not bankrupt. There may be a delay in a United ireland, which may delay i tbeyond the lifespans of oul fellows like us, but I'm going to cut down on sugar and hope.

Quote from: T Fearon
The southern government and people don't want it,northern nationalists don't even want it,there is no plan or strategy to achieve it..

Those who don't want it, as distinct from having a realistic appreciation of the issues, cannot be described as nationalists but should title themselves unionists.

yip true. The big truth is that there are plenty of NI citizens born into a catholic or nationalist tradition who do not aspire to a united ireland. Simple stuff really. But why do SF point to relative "catholic" and "protestant" birth rates in this scenario?
Simply because at some stage that catholic majority may be persuaded to support unity.

Interesting. So will the logic of the SF argument in favour of a United Ireland only be apparent to those who believe in transubstantiation?

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #322 on: January 16, 2016, 10:10:57 PM »
Interesting. So will the logic of the SF argument in favour of a United Ireland only be apparent to those who believe in transubstantiation?

No. The point is that those who have not been fed sectarian bigotry by their families will be more open to the argument.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #323 on: January 16, 2016, 10:52:50 PM »
Interesting. So will the logic of the SF argument in favour of a United Ireland only be apparent to those who believe in transubstantiation?

No. The point is that those who have not been fed sectarian bigotry by their families will be more open to the argument.

So if it is not to do with religion then why is relative birth rates important or even relevant?

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #324 on: January 16, 2016, 11:11:45 PM »
Sinn Fein is the mirror image of the DUP,using sectarianism as a tool to maintain the tribal vote.

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #325 on: January 16, 2016, 11:23:32 PM »
Sinn Fein is the mirror image of the DUP,using sectarianism as a tool to maintain the tribal vote.

Just like broken clocks are occasionally correct so too does a WUM occasionally state something that they think is really controversial when its just a mundane fact

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #326 on: January 16, 2016, 11:35:25 PM »
So if it is not to do with religion then why is relative birth rates important or even relevant?

It isn't directly to do with religion, but very few people from a Catholic background have been fed Orange colonialist supremacist bullshit so are not likely to be determined to maintain the colonialist NI.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

smelmoth

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #327 on: January 16, 2016, 11:51:34 PM »
So if it is not to do with religion then why is relative birth rates important or even relevant?

It isn't directly to do with religion, but very few people from a Catholic background have been fed Orange colonialist supremacist bullshit so are not likely to be determined to maintain the colonialist NI.

Firstly - I'd say very few people from a protestant background have been fed Orange colonialist supremacist bullshit.

Secondly - we are already people from a catholic background not buying to irish nationalism. On that basis why is the relative birth rates important.

Thirdly - is there any bullshit being fed to catholic kids??

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #328 on: January 17, 2016, 12:06:11 AM »
Firstly - I'd say very few people from a protestant background have been fed Orange colonialist supremacist bullshit.

Well they are voting for parties supportive of Orange colonialist supremacist bullshit, so they must have got it from somewhere.

Quote
Secondly - we are already people from a catholic background not buying to irish nationalism. On that basis why is the relative birth rates important.

I have distinguished in these threads between those supporting the union for colonialist reasons and those who support it for pragmatic reasons. The latter can be convinced to change their view if other pragmatic solutions are proposed, not that Sinn Féin are ever likely to do this.

Quote
Thirdly - is there any bullshit being fed to catholic kids??

hard to say, they are definitely getting too much sugar.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #329 on: January 17, 2016, 07:26:40 AM »
People vote for the union because they consider themselves British.People vote for alleged anti Union parties because they consider themselves Irish (though in a referendum many of these wouldn't vote for a United Ireland).

But a high percentage of people consider themselves N Irish and don't vote at all.It is these people who are crucial to the sidelining of the failed political philosophies of unionism and nationalism,and the shame is they don't currently vote because they believe it's pointless to do so.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2016, 08:24:30 AM by T Fearon »