Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 158532 times)

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #225 on: November 29, 2015, 08:03:15 AM »
Unionists proper are now less than 50% of NI population and declining. People rooted in the 17th century should not be allowed determine the evolution of the 21st century.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #226 on: November 29, 2015, 10:03:01 AM »
A United Ireland without their consent,all the same,will be a mirror image of N Ireland,that is no peaceful,confrontation,resentment and everything else

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #227 on: November 29, 2015, 11:38:46 AM »
A United Ireland without their consent,all the same,will be a mirror image of N Ireland,that is no peaceful,confrontation,resentment and everything else
Given the GFA, it can't happen anyway. There has to be consent on all sides
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T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #228 on: November 29, 2015, 12:24:22 PM »
Exactly,the GFA copper fastened partition indefinitely.Overwhelmingly the people of the south signed away the claim to the whole island,contained in Articles 2 and 3,so "Opening up discussions" on pipe dreams is a complete waste of time.

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #229 on: November 29, 2015, 01:17:49 PM »
A pipe dream is better than a pipe bomb. Butlots will depend on London post cuts and post a possible Brexit plus post the rise of English nationalism. The Union will only weaken over time.
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Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #230 on: November 29, 2015, 05:55:29 PM »
A United Ireland without their consent,all the same,will be a mirror image of N Ireland,that is no peaceful,confrontation,resentment and everything else
Given the GFA, it can't happen anyway. There has to be consent on all sides

Incorrect. The GFA says if 50%+1 in the north vote for reunification, and if the people in the south agree, then reunification it is.

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #231 on: November 29, 2015, 06:18:54 PM »
A United Ireland without their consent,all the same,will be a mirror image of N Ireland,that is no peaceful,confrontation,resentment and everything else
Given the GFA, it can't happen anyway. There has to be consent on all sides

Incorrect. The GFA says if 50%+1 in the north vote for reunification, and if the people in the south agree, then reunification it is.
in practice parity of esteem means they wouldn't get away with it. Another Ulster Covenant would be the sand in the vaseline. The Irish Question has been going on for a long time and a 51 percent catholic proportion won't make it disappear.The plantation was stupid but the people are still there.
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armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #232 on: November 29, 2015, 06:38:18 PM »
The Unionists, and their fellow travellers, seem to believe that a Unionist vote should be worth more than other people's votes.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #233 on: November 29, 2015, 07:41:06 PM »
A United Ireland without their consent,all the same,will be a mirror image of N Ireland,that is no peaceful,confrontation,resentment and everything else
Given the GFA, it can't happen anyway. There has to be consent on all sides

Incorrect. The GFA says if 50%+1 in the north vote for reunification, and if the people in the south agree, then reunification it is.
in practice parity of esteem means they wouldn't get away with it. Another Ulster Covenant would be the sand in the vaseline. The Irish Question has been going on for a long time and a 51 percent catholic proportion won't make it disappear.The plantation was stupid but the people are still there.

The question becomes, what form would our united Ireland take?

Scenario 1 - Complete assimilation of the north into the existing structures of the south, with no progress in healing divisions in the north.
Unionist reaction - Open insurrection.

Scenario 2 - Transfer powers from Westminster to Dublin, but retain Stormont assembly in present form with existing power-sharing checks and balances.  Heal divisions between the two sides in the north via desegregation of education and sort out the parades impasse. New state joins Commonwealth but remains a republic with its own elected head of state.
Unionist reaction - Grumbling resentment, but acceptance. Some dissident loyalist violence, but small enough that it can be contained until it fades away.

michaelg

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #234 on: November 29, 2015, 08:06:17 PM »
Unionists proper are now less than 50% of NI population and declining. People rooted in the 17th century should not be allowed determine the evolution of the 21st century.
By 'Unionists proper', I assume you mean protestants.  Unfortunately for you there are quite a few 'improper' unionists too.  Are they too rooted in the 17th century, or do they just perhaps prefer the benefits that come from remaining within the union.

Maguire01

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #235 on: November 29, 2015, 08:10:46 PM »
A United Ireland without their consent,all the same,will be a mirror image of N Ireland,that is no peaceful,confrontation,resentment and everything else
Given the GFA, it can't happen anyway. There has to be consent on all sides

Incorrect. The GFA says if 50%+1 in the north vote for reunification, and if the people in the south agree, then reunification it is.
in practice parity of esteem means they wouldn't get away with it. Another Ulster Covenant would be the sand in the vaseline. The Irish Question has been going on for a long time and a 51 percent catholic proportion won't make it disappear.The plantation was stupid but the people are still there.

The question becomes, what form would our united Ireland take?

Scenario 1 - Complete assimilation of the north into the existing structures of the south, with no progress in healing divisions in the north.
Unionist reaction - Open insurrection.

Scenario 2 - Transfer powers from Westminster to Dublin, but retain Stormont assembly in present form with existing power-sharing checks and balances.  Heal divisions between the two sides in the north via desegregation of education and sort out the parades impasse. New state joins Commonwealth but remains a republic with its own elected head of state.
Unionist reaction - Grumbling resentment, but acceptance. Some dissident loyalist violence, but small enough that it can be contained until it fades away.
Scenario 2 is the only viable option, with power devolved from Dublin (and TDs elected from NI to the Dail). The PSNI remains the police force for NI.

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #236 on: November 29, 2015, 08:30:42 PM »
I'd say in a positive outcome Stormont would be responsible for things like policing, environment, justice but things like finance and the bigger spending departments as well as Foreign Affairs would be run out of Dublin.  Heavy devolution. It would be great to get a "best of" set of institutions, down South as well as up North.
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vallankumous

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #237 on: November 29, 2015, 08:35:44 PM »
Exactly,the GFA copper fastened partition indefinitely.Overwhelmingly the people of the south signed away the claim to the whole island,contained in Articles 2 and 3,so "Opening up discussions" on pipe dreams is a complete waste of time.

Articles 2 & 3?
When they were there they meant nothing as they were never acted upon. It seems to me they more now more important when they're gone as bullshitters think they had a role to play.

They were nothing but decoration to Fianna Fail.

T Fearon

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #238 on: November 29, 2015, 09:31:24 PM »
If a United Ireland was to happen tomorrow,every unionist demand would be readily acceded to (including Drumcree/Garvaghy Road March every Sunday,Union Jack flying from Dáil Éireann and every other public building) for fear of any allegation of discrimination.

Articles 2 and 3 were at least nominal recognition that Ireland was the entire island territory.Now that they're gone it means even this nominal aspiration to govern the whole island is gone.

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #239 on: November 29, 2015, 09:51:13 PM »
If a United Ireland was to happen tomorrow,every unionist demand would be readily acceded to (including Drumcree/Garvaghy Road March every Sunday,Union Jack flying from Dáil Éireann and every other public building) for fear of any allegation of discrimination.

Articles 2 and 3 were at least nominal recognition that Ireland was the entire island territory.Now that they're gone it means even this nominal aspiration to govern the whole island is gone.
Getting rid of 2 and 3 for a say in NI was progress IMO. If there was a UI they could be reinserted.
But it depends on what happens in NI and especially the UK. The cuts are really going to put a strain on the Union. Scotland and (to a lesser extent) Wales might not hang around.  The Tories want to get
spending down to 35% of GDP and will cut everything bar the NHS. If Scotland goes all bets are off for NI.
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