Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 156715 times)

winghalfback

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #210 on: November 26, 2015, 05:09:54 PM »
I suppose the way to think about a united Ireland is to think what kind of Ireland do you want?
Is is merely ok to want a 32 county socialist republic? What would this look like?
Would you just want the brits to upsticks and leave in the morning?
Would you want a new Ireland, an Ireland of equals no matter or creed or colour?
Do you want a federal Ireland?
Is it about your benefits that rules your decision?
Do the economics matter?
I guess for many is a united Ireland something you really want?

All these things have to be considered.
I my opinion there is alot of work to be done before my dream of a United Ireland can be achieved. We have as many if not more people to convince in the southern part of this small country as we have to convince in the northern 6 counties.
Firstly we have to achieve so sort of piece of mind regarding the past, it is a big issue on both sides of the divide, of which there were wrongs done by all parties. I would suggest a truth commission an amnesty if you like where victims and their families could avail of as much truth as possible regarding the terrible acts regarding their loved ones. I would say a commission where British and Irish Governments release all files on such incidents. I don't think we need to be looking for pressing charges on perpitrators but if we can get the truth out maybe we can move on. it wont help everyone but it will appease most.
Secondly we would have to look at the mechanisms of it all. This is a small island its barely 700 km long and 400 km wide. Does it make sense to have to of every single department needed to run a country of this size. Do we need 2 health, education, transport, social security, agriculture, sports, finance ministers departments sectors whatever you want to call it. Would it not be more beneficial to have one department dealing for say health for the whole island as it would be to have one minister to look after transport issues or agriculture. Surely financially it would be more beneficial at least.
We have to think about logistics regarding export and import we have to think about international links and we have to think about currency. Why have 2 separate currencies on such a small piece of land?
We have to convince our unionist brothers and sisters that these are all in their best intrests. They have to be made realise they would have a voice in our country. I firmly believe that A new Ireland equal to everyone would see a unionist type party holding some sort power I could see a FG DUP/UUP coalition on power. I think some unionist politicians are very progressive thinkers and would prosper in a role where they are decision makers of a new country and not having to look back to their master in london to agree their moves.
Sinn Fein are driving the New Ireland plan Eire Nua and they have to show people the wider public how it would work. People need convincing even now today. I dont believe they need to release exact figures for economic arguments but if they can show that their ideas are feaseable and possible then thats enough for now. it will help start the debate. Currently in their defence they are the only party or group coming up with any plan or idea on what they would like to see. Sdlp claim to be nationalist and want a united ireland but have no plans in place to decribe what they want this was evident when on the joint RTE BBC show a few weeks ago clare hanna was asked to sell the concept and she couldn't. The 1916 societies are calling for a referendum and have a petition out but they also do not decribe the Ireland they want to see. Because SF are the driving force on this issue at the minute does not mean they are to be in power but it does mean people who are interested in this topic must take their plans into consideration just like everyones plans must be taken into consideration.
I think all parties need to come together on this issue.  All these parties claim to have the same goal in mind they need to set up a joint venture regarding them all and plan the ireland they want and sell it to the public.
Issues such as flag national anthem national identity national security our stance on defence issues all these issues must be covered in this work.
This Ireland has to have top class health provision Top quality education for everyones needs the best universities top class roads and rail networks covering every part of the island. I must have aplan to be the best in every sector and we have to utilise our natural resources. I firmly believe there is plenty of wealth to make this country great. This country can sustain itself and be prosperous.
This is a very small part of what there is to think about but before people talk about this that and the other they need to have atleast considered all aspects. To some its a hard sell to others its a very easy selll.

Just an opinion sorry about the speling in places and im sure there are plenty of grammer issues too.

muppet

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #211 on: November 26, 2015, 05:22:29 PM »
I doubt McGuinness would be prepared to go that far, I certainly wouldn't.

I can understand why he wouldn't. And I can understand why people wouldn't want him to do it.

But if anyone did it it would have to be him. He is in the relevant position and his family soccer & sports credentials are genuine.

Whatever we think of partition and the 700 years before that, the GFA is now the reference point. And out of that came the Northern Ireland Executive. I don't expect to see a DUP leader wearing a Tyrone/Armagh etc GAA shirt in Croke Park anytime soon. But it would be something to see.

It would be real leadership. But I see no one on the other side remotely capable of such leadership.

And on 'our' side of the house, McGuinness is the only man I think who could deliver something like that. Think Mandela.
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armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #212 on: November 26, 2015, 05:33:47 PM »
So putting on a 6 Co Soccer team jersey is " giving legitimacy to OWC which republicans will not concede".
However serving in a 6 Cos Administration is OK?
Ah well........... ::)

It is perfectly possibly to rationally recognise that there is a political issue which requires institutions to address while not supporting sporting division.
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #213 on: November 26, 2015, 06:29:42 PM »
I suppose the way to think about a united Ireland is to think what kind of Ireland do you want?
Is is merely ok to want a 32 county socialist republic? What would this look like?
Would you just want the brits to upsticks and leave in the morning?
Would you want a new Ireland, an Ireland of equals no matter or creed or colour?
Do you want a federal Ireland?
Is it about your benefits that rules your decision?
Do the economics matter?
I guess for many is a united Ireland something you really want?

All these things have to be considered.
I my opinion there is alot of work to be done before my dream of a United Ireland can be achieved. We have as many if not more people to convince in the southern part of this small country as we have to convince in the northern 6 counties.
Firstly we have to achieve so sort of piece of mind regarding the past, it is a big issue on both sides of the divide, of which there were wrongs done by all parties. I would suggest a truth commission an amnesty if you like where victims and their families could avail of as much truth as possible regarding the terrible acts regarding their loved ones. I would say a commission where British and Irish Governments release all files on such incidents. I don't think we need to be looking for pressing charges on perpitrators but if we can get the truth out maybe we can move on. it wont help everyone but it will appease most.
Secondly we would have to look at the mechanisms of it all. This is a small island its barely 700 km long and 400 km wide. Does it make sense to have to of every single department needed to run a country of this size. Do we need 2 health, education, transport, social security, agriculture, sports, finance ministers departments sectors whatever you want to call it. Would it not be more beneficial to have one department dealing for say health for the whole island as it would be to have one minister to look after transport issues or agriculture. Surely financially it would be more beneficial at least.
We have to think about logistics regarding export and import we have to think about international links and we have to think about currency. Why have 2 separate currencies on such a small piece of land?
We have to convince our unionist brothers and sisters that these are all in their best intrests. They have to be made realise they would have a voice in our country. I firmly believe that A new Ireland equal to everyone would see a unionist type party holding some sort power I could see a FG DUP/UUP coalition on power. I think some unionist politicians are very progressive thinkers and would prosper in a role where they are decision makers of a new country and not having to look back to their master in london to agree their moves.
Sinn Fein are driving the New Ireland plan Eire Nua and they have to show people the wider public how it would work. People need convincing even now today. I dont believe they need to release exact figures for economic arguments but if they can show that their ideas are feaseable and possible then thats enough for now. it will help start the debate. Currently in their defence they are the only party or group coming up with any plan or idea on what they would like to see. Sdlp claim to be nationalist and want a united ireland but have no plans in place to decribe what they want this was evident when on the joint RTE BBC show a few weeks ago clare hanna was asked to sell the concept and she couldn't. The 1916 societies are calling for a referendum and have a petition out but they also do not decribe the Ireland they want to see. Because SF are the driving force on this issue at the minute does not mean they are to be in power but it does mean people who are interested in this topic must take their plans into consideration just like everyones plans must be taken into consideration.
I think all parties need to come together on this issue.  All these parties claim to have the same goal in mind they need to set up a joint venture regarding them all and plan the ireland they want and sell it to the public.
Issues such as flag national anthem national identity national security our stance on defence issues all these issues must be covered in this work.
This Ireland has to have top class health provision Top quality education for everyones needs the best universities top class roads and rail networks covering every part of the island. I must have aplan to be the best in every sector and we have to utilise our natural resources. I firmly believe there is plenty of wealth to make this country great. This country can sustain itself and be prosperous.
This is a very small part of what there is to think about but before people talk about this that and the other they need to have atleast considered all aspects. To some its a hard sell to others its a very easy selll.

Just an opinion sorry about the speling in places and im sure there are plenty of grammer issues too.
It'll never be a socialist republic. Too many farmers.

I wonder could farming links be developed between north and south. It's all EU money after all !

Could unionists have better economic opportunities in a 32CR ?  Apparently lots of graduates end up working in Dublin. I was talking to a landowner a while ago in Down and he was very positive about the South. But how would you get loyalists and other poor Protestants onside?

What would be the most positive aspects of a 32CR ?

Things like the teaching of history would have to be sorted out. I remember going to Derry and some museum about the Siege from a Unionist perspective and it was hard to swallow.

Unionists could get some factor of votes say 1.25 for more say in the new Parliament.
The Dail is crap anyway. Far too much executive power.

A 32CR would be good for the 26 because it would involve improvement of a lot of the current institutions.
And that is really necessary.
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Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #214 on: November 26, 2015, 07:17:18 PM »
So putting on a 6 Co Soccer team jersey is " giving legitimacy to OWC which republicans will not concede".
However serving in a 6 Cos Administration is OK?
Ah well........... ::)

It is perfectly possibly to rationally recognise that there is a political issue which requires institutions to address while not supporting sporting division.

The FAI broke away from the other shower so in effect those who support the FAI team are supporting soccer division.

As for the future All Ireland political entity - one thing it won't be is a "32 County Democratic Socialist" Republic.
A Social Democratic agreed political entity will do me grand.
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armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #215 on: November 26, 2015, 07:31:29 PM »
The FAI broke away from the other shower so in effect those who support the FAI team are supporting soccer division.

I'm not up to speed on the history of this, but one thing is certain the Irish Football Association is opposed to Irish people. 

Quote
As for the future All Ireland political entity - one thing it won't be is a "32 County Democratic Socialist" Republic.
A Social Democratic agreed political entity will do me grand.

if it is democratic, then it will not be socialist in the looney SF sense.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 11:29:21 PM by armaghniac »
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #216 on: November 26, 2015, 10:10:50 PM »
The FAI broke away from the other shower so in effect those who support the FAI team are supporting soccer division./quote]

I'm not up to speed on the history of this, but one thing is certain the Irish Football Association is opposed to Irish people. 

Quote
As for the future All Ireland political entity - one thing it won't be is a "32 County Democratic Socialist" Republic.
A Social Democratic agreed political entity will do me grand.

if it is democratic, then it will not be socialist in the looney SF sense.
The Shinners are in no way socialist. They are after power like everyone else.
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Maguire01

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #217 on: November 26, 2015, 10:50:35 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

That is fine, but it might look to an outsider to be as open and inclusive as a Trump rally.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but, is there value in Martin McGuinness finding a way to do a Mandela? I know many will see it as no more than a publicity stunt, but imagery is everything to Unionists apparently, and sport is massive to us all.

Mandela got serious criticism, from his own supporters, for putting on the Springbok jersey but in hindsight it was a stroke of genius.

The ideal might be to wear the soccer jersey to the Euros next year, but that might be just too hard to swallow for many Nationalists, never mind Republicans. I know McGuinness comes from a sporting family, his brothers both played soccer for Derry City and one of them played gaelic football for Derry. And I know he has attended Ulster Rugby games.

But would the Euros be a step too far?
Support Northern Ireland? They won't even say Northern Ireland!

muppet

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #218 on: November 26, 2015, 10:55:32 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

That is fine, but it might look to an outsider to be as open and inclusive as a Trump rally.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but, is there value in Martin McGuinness finding a way to do a Mandela? I know many will see it as no more than a publicity stunt, but imagery is everything to Unionists apparently, and sport is massive to us all.

Mandela got serious criticism, from his own supporters, for putting on the Springbok jersey but in hindsight it was a stroke of genius.

The ideal might be to wear the soccer jersey to the Euros next year, but that might be just too hard to swallow for many Nationalists, never mind Republicans. I know McGuinness comes from a sporting family, his brothers both played soccer for Derry City and one of them played gaelic football for Derry. And I know he has attended Ulster Rugby games.

But would the Euros be a step too far?
Support Northern Ireland? They won't even say Northern Ireland!

It is hard to support the Good Friday Agreement and not recognise the jurisdictions contained in it: http://peacemaker.un.org/uk-ireland-good-friday98
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Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #219 on: November 27, 2015, 10:34:36 AM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

That is fine, but it might look to an outsider to be as open and inclusive as a Trump rally.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but, is there value in Martin McGuinness finding a way to do a Mandela? I know many will see it as no more than a publicity stunt, but imagery is everything to Unionists apparently, and sport is massive to us all.

Mandela got serious criticism, from his own supporters, for putting on the Springbok jersey but in hindsight it was a stroke of genius.

The ideal might be to wear the soccer jersey to the Euros next year, but that might be just too hard to swallow for many Nationalists, never mind Republicans. I know McGuinness comes from a sporting family, his brothers both played soccer for Derry City and one of them played gaelic football for Derry. And I know he has attended Ulster Rugby games.

But would the Euros be a step too far?
Support Northern Ireland? They won't even say Northern Ireland!
Some of the posts on here highlight in high definition the lack of understanding in the ROI of the folk memory of Northern Nationalists. When I say Northern Ireland on those rare occasions I have no choice it sticks in my throat and I'm no Shinner. Also the Executive is a regional devolved administration that does not require an outright acknowledgement that NI is a "country" which it is clearly not no matter what the OWCers say.

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #220 on: November 27, 2015, 10:56:05 AM »
I doubt McGuinness would be prepared to go that far, I certainly wouldn't.

I can understand why he wouldn't. And I can understand why people wouldn't want him to do it.

But if anyone did it it would have to be him. He is in the relevant position and his family soccer & sports credentials are genuine.

Whatever we think of partition and the 700 years before that, the GFA is now the reference point. And out of that came the Northern Ireland Executive. I don't expect to see a DUP leader wearing a Tyrone/Armagh etc GAA shirt in Croke Park anytime soon. But it would be something to see.

It would be real leadership. But I see no one on the other side remotely capable of such leadership.

And on 'our' side of the house, McGuinness is the only man I think who could deliver something like that. Think Mandela.

I'd be in total agreement with you on the point I highlighted, but why would this be such a big issue for unionists, yet Alex Maskey, Marty and Co can regularly attend cenotaph ceremonies etc etc!!

My thoughts on it are that Unionists still see the troubles as solely being caused by republicans and not one part of it was caused by their bigotry/actions/inactions at the time preceding years and during them.

I still find it galling that none of their political leadership has apologised to nationalists/republicans and to the general population at large for their behaviour during these times.

seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #221 on: November 27, 2015, 11:27:12 AM »
I doubt McGuinness would be prepared to go that far, I certainly wouldn't.

I can understand why he wouldn't. And I can understand why people wouldn't want him to do it.

But if anyone did it it would have to be him. He is in the relevant position and his family soccer & sports credentials are genuine.

Whatever we think of partition and the 700 years before that, the GFA is now the reference point. And out of that came the Northern Ireland Executive. I don't expect to see a DUP leader wearing a Tyrone/Armagh etc GAA shirt in Croke Park anytime soon. But it would be something to see.

It would be real leadership. But I see no one on the other side remotely capable of such leadership.

And on 'our' side of the house, McGuinness is the only man I think who could deliver something like that. Think Mandela.

I'd be in total agreement with you on the point I highlighted, but why would this be such a big issue for unionists, yet Alex Maskey, Marty and Co can regularly attend cenotaph ceremonies etc etc!!

My thoughts on it are that Unionists still see the troubles as solely being caused by republicans and not one part of it was caused by their bigotry/actions/inactions at the time preceding years and during them.

I still find it galling that none of their political leadership has apologised to nationalists/republicans and to the general population at large for their behaviour during these times.
That's because they have a different reading of the past and their identity is wrapped around it. For Queen and country - neither the Queen nor the UK are much interested any more. They end up glorifying the Somme - I feel sorry for them.
 
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muppet

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #222 on: November 27, 2015, 12:04:22 PM »
I doubt McGuinness would be prepared to go that far, I certainly wouldn't.

I can understand why he wouldn't. And I can understand why people wouldn't want him to do it.

But if anyone did it it would have to be him. He is in the relevant position and his family soccer & sports credentials are genuine.

Whatever we think of partition and the 700 years before that, the GFA is now the reference point. And out of that came the Northern Ireland Executive. I don't expect to see a DUP leader wearing a Tyrone/Armagh etc GAA shirt in Croke Park anytime soon. But it would be something to see.

It would be real leadership. But I see no one on the other side remotely capable of such leadership.

And on 'our' side of the house, McGuinness is the only man I think who could deliver something like that. Think Mandela.

I'd be in total agreement with you on the point I highlighted, but why would this be such a big issue for unionists, yet Alex Maskey, Marty and Co can regularly attend cenotaph ceremonies etc etc!!

My thoughts on it are that Unionists still see the troubles as solely being caused by republicans and not one part of it was caused by their bigotry/actions/inactions at the time preceding years and during them.

I still find it galling that none of their political leadership has apologised to nationalists/republicans and to the general population at large for their behaviour during these times.


Agreed, and this is another example of a group of people so up to their necks in their blinkered ideology that it is almost impossible to deal with them. That tail then creates fear and uncertainty among the wider Unionist dog, to justify their own existence. As far as I can see fleg protests and crap like that are not to defend anything, but to provoke.

Mandela must have worried that he risked doing a Neville Chamberlain when he wore the Springboks jersey and publicly declared his support for them. but he did it and it sent a really powerful message.

Michael Davitt and his movement got the land redistributed from landowners to the peasants. That would have have appeared unthinkable a few decades beforehand.

It doesn't have to be the jersey and it doesn't have to be McGuinness. It could be a smaller step. I sure someone can think of something else but I just think that Euro 2016 is a big opportunity.

 The GFA sets out a democratic road to a United Ireland. There is no harm in examining how solid all those 'no' votes are.
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seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #223 on: November 28, 2015, 07:35:11 PM »
The UK is going to look very different by 2020, as will NornIrn


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/939cae4c-9454-11e5-b190-291e94b77c8f.html

"By cutting the size of the state the chancellor is also pulling it out of all recognisable shape. Politics and demography are driving remorseless rises in the budgets for health and the elderly just as other services are slashed. Anything classed as discretionary spending — think, say, of the criminal justice system, the environment, support for industry and employment, or the basic bureaucracy of public administration — is left with a shrinking share of an ever smaller cake. We should not be surprised that HM Revenue & Customs now fails to answer 25 per cent of telephone calls from individual taxpayers.

The cuts that will most visibly alter the look and feel of the nation are those that impact on what you might call civic Britain. Mr Osborne makes great play of a declared commitment to shift power from Whitehall to the nation’s town halls. The Autumn Statement makes it blindingly clear that, on the contrary, the exercise is one in transferring to town halls responsibility to implement Whitehall-directed cuts.

Local authorities have been the biggest losers from austerity. The IFS estimates that the big reductions in central government grants to councils during the last parliament will be followed by a further 50 per cent cut by 2020. Councils have also been told to raise additional local taxes to pay for social care and policing.

The net effect is to force local politicians to scrap provision of anything much that falls outside their statutory responsibilities. This means closing libraries, swimming pools, parks, children’s centres and community meeting places for the elderly and infirm. "

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #224 on: November 29, 2015, 07:57:57 AM »
Sadly no argument,no matter how logical or attractive will ever convince unionists of the merits of a UI.They regard themselves as British and see the South as a different and in many cases a "foreign country". Indeed I remember a Gand uncle of mine saying many years ago that unionists would eat grass before going into a united Ireland.

Not excusing the shameful discrimination that went on here (I myself was a victim of this) but a lot of it was borne from fear and insecurity.Big Paisley remarked that Catholics in general never tried to make NI work at any stage and their opposition to the statelet was met with suspicion and fear on the unionist side.

I have seen a lot of change here and things I'd never dreamed would happen,but alas I'll never see a United Ireland