Author Topic: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.  (Read 151257 times)

muppet

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #195 on: November 25, 2015, 01:26:57 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
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Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #196 on: November 25, 2015, 02:05:43 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

muppet

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #197 on: November 25, 2015, 02:08:42 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
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Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #198 on: November 25, 2015, 02:14:17 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

muppet

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #199 on: November 25, 2015, 02:43:50 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

That is fine, but it might look to an outsider to be as open and inclusive as a Trump rally.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but, is there value in Martin McGuinness finding a way to do a Mandela? I know many will see it as no more than a publicity stunt, but imagery is everything to Unionists apparently, and sport is massive to us all.

Mandela got serious criticism, from his own supporters, for putting on the Springbok jersey but in hindsight it was a stroke of genius.

The ideal might be to wear the soccer jersey to the Euros next year, but that might be just too hard to swallow for many Nationalists, never mind Republicans. I know McGuinness comes from a sporting family, his brothers both played soccer for Derry City and one of them played gaelic football for Derry. And I know he has attended Ulster Rugby games.

But would the Euros be a step too far?
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Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #200 on: November 25, 2015, 06:48:19 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

That is fine, but it might look to an outsider to be as open and inclusive as a Trump rally.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but, is there value in Martin McGuinness finding a way to do a Mandela? I know many will see it as no more than a publicity stunt, but imagery is everything to Unionists apparently, and sport is massive to us all.

Mandela got serious criticism, from his own supporters, for putting on the Springbok jersey but in hindsight it was a stroke of genius.

The ideal might be to wear the soccer jersey to the Euros next year, but that might be just too hard to swallow for many Nationalists, never mind Republicans. I know McGuinness comes from a sporting family, his brothers both played soccer for Derry City and one of them played gaelic football for Derry. And I know he has attended Ulster Rugby games.

But would the Euros be a step too far?
I doubt McGuinness would be prepared to go that far, I certainly wouldn't.

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #201 on: November 26, 2015, 04:51:41 AM »
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

They actually invite along unionist representatives to say their piece at these meetings.

Eamonnca1

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #202 on: November 26, 2015, 04:57:46 AM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

I don't think nationalists vote purely on an economic basis, but the economic case is worth dealing with. People have always assumed that reunification would result in negative economic consequences, so it's worth challenging that.  However people don't generally vote with their heads, they vote with their hearts. As long as unionists feel uncomfortable stepping out of the UK on an emotional level, no amount of economic arguments are going to persuade them to do so. That's got to be the next step in the discussion. How do we deal with matters of identity and help unionists become more comfortable throwing in their lot with the rest of the people on the island? I'll tell you one thing that's not going to help: the constant Brit-bashing and harking back to the past that comes from certain republican quarters.

omaghjoe

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #203 on: November 26, 2015, 06:15:44 AM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

That is fine, but it might look to an outsider to be as open and inclusive as a Trump rally.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but, is there value in Martin McGuinness finding a way to do a Mandela? I know many will see it as no more than a publicity stunt, but imagery is everything to Unionists apparently, and sport is massive to us all.

Mandela got serious criticism, from his own supporters, for putting on the Springbok jersey but in hindsight it was a stroke of genius.

The ideal might be to wear the soccer jersey to the Euros next year, but that might be just too hard to swallow for many Nationalists, never mind Republicans. I know McGuinness comes from a sporting family, his brothers both played soccer for Derry City and one of them played gaelic football for Derry. And I know he has attended Ulster Rugby games.

But would the Euros be a step too far?
I doubt McGuinness would be prepared to go that far, I certainly wouldn't.

I think it would be a spot on gesture to do. We are crying out for something like that since the ceasefires. Although it might have been more on the cards if the Rep had not qualified

armaghniac

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #204 on: November 26, 2015, 08:06:01 AM »
I don't think nationalists vote purely on an economic basis, but the economic case is worth dealing with. People have always assumed that reunification would result in negative economic consequences, so it's worth challenging that.  However people don't generally vote with their heads, they vote with their hearts. As long as unionists feel uncomfortable stepping out of the UK on an emotional level, no amount of economic arguments are going to persuade them to do so.

Satisfactory economics is a prerequisite for serious discussion on other matters, as is some measure of competent economically literate nationalist leadership from someone not noted for bombing people.

Quote
That's got to be the next step in the discussion. How do we deal with matters of identity and help unionists become more comfortable throwing in their lot with the rest of the people on the island? I'll tell you one thing that's not going to help: the constant Brit-bashing and harking back to the past that comes from certain republican quarters.

The point that needs to be reiterated is that what is proposed is a united Ireland, not an Ireland run by the local cavemen in Sinn Féin. You have the negative contributions from the likes of Phil Flanagan with his ridiculous pro ISIS tweet, but people in Ireland generally think Phil Flanagan is an ar se.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2015, 08:08:27 AM by armaghniac »
if at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #205 on: November 26, 2015, 01:59:34 PM »
It is noticeable that some people from the wee 6 on here are willing to honestly state that they would vote on a United Ireland mainly on an economic basis. That is fair enough and that is their right.

But why is it so unreasonable that people in the past voted, presumably to grab the peace on offer, and to end the years of war (WW1) and rebellion? Of course the irony is that that vote for peace, triggered yet another war.
As one of those from the wee 6 the most important consideration for me is an accommodation with unionism that avoids further conflict. Unionism is not close to that stage as yet. I don't believe that economics is an issue as the British Government imo in such circumstances would be generous in the short term for the long term gain of not having to deal with the north. As a previous poster has said the onus is very much on nationalism in general but SF in particular to lead the way. They need to start in there own community first rather than just focusing on outreach to unionists.

Is there anyone or any organisation putting anything out there, even just for discussion, on that subject?
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

That is fine, but it might look to an outsider to be as open and inclusive as a Trump rally.

I suspect I will get flamed for this, but, is there value in Martin McGuinness finding a way to do a Mandela? I know many will see it as no more than a publicity stunt, but imagery is everything to Unionists apparently, and sport is massive to us all.

Mandela got serious criticism, from his own supporters, for putting on the Springbok jersey but in hindsight it was a stroke of genius.

The ideal might be to wear the soccer jersey to the Euros next year, but that might be just too hard to swallow for many Nationalists, never mind Republicans. I know McGuinness comes from a sporting family, his brothers both played soccer for Derry City and one of them played gaelic football for Derry. And I know he has attended Ulster Rugby games.

But would the Euros be a step too far?
I doubt McGuinness would be prepared to go that far, I certainly wouldn't.

I think it would be a spot on gesture to do. We are crying out for something like that since the ceasefires. Although it might have been more on the cards if the Rep had not qualified
That gives legitimacy to OWC which Republicans will not concede. This is a region of the UK or a part of Ireland under UK control or something in-between, depending on your view. Unionists would not give McGuinness any credit for a gesture such as this and it would give grist to the dissident mill. In fairness to McGuinness he has always been willing to congratulate OWCers on their successes.

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #206 on: November 26, 2015, 02:01:15 PM »
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

They actually invite along unionist representatives to say their piece at these meetings.
The point I am making is that I am in need of convincing, but I would not go to a public SF meeting, and there are many in that boat.

Rossfan

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #207 on: November 26, 2015, 02:52:20 PM »
So putting on a 6 Co Soccer team jersey is " giving legitimacy to OWC which republicans will not concede".
However serving in a 6 Cos Administration is OK?
Ah well........... ::)
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seafoid

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #208 on: November 26, 2015, 02:59:08 PM »
The shinners have public meetings, but at these they are preaching to the converted. they need to engage more in smaller discussion groups with nationalist middleclasses.

They actually invite along unionist representatives to say their piece at these meetings.
The point I am making is that I am in need of convincing, but I would not go to a public SF meeting, and there are many in that boat.
Back in the god old days the 2 biggest parties were the SDLP and the UUP, both reasonably moderate
Since 97 or so the Shinners and the DUP have replaced them and there's a much bigger gap between those 2.
Yes vs No
Lookit

Applesisapples

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Re: A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.
« Reply #209 on: November 26, 2015, 03:58:50 PM »
So putting on a 6 Co Soccer team jersey is " giving legitimacy to OWC which republicans will not concede".
However serving in a 6 Cos Administration is OK?
Ah well........... ::)
You clearly do not understand the nuances.