Author Topic: Ashers cake controversy.  (Read 46904 times)

David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #435 on: October 26, 2016, 01:28:40 AM »
Of course it is we,the taxpayers,who will foot the bill as usual.Time the discredited equality commission was scrapped altogether >:(. You cannot profess to be a Christian then print anti Christian messages, even as part of a business transaction.In fact I would contend that making money by doing so is even more hypocritical, and insulting.

Gay supremacy must be halted now.

No one is forcing them to print anti Christian messages, if Ashers didn't want to print cakes with messages about Gay marriage they don't have to providing they don't then print messages about marriage.  The position would be the same for a Gay baker, if they weren't prepared to print a cake saying support heterosexual marriage only then they couldn't print a cake saying support Gay marriage.

Printing a cake does not mean you ascribe to or endorse the message on the cake.  It simply means you are providing a service.

It was the same for the hotel owners in England, don't want gay couples staying in your hotel thats fine then as long as no couples are entitled to stay. 

It is equality not gay supremacy

omaghjoe

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #436 on: October 26, 2016, 04:41:54 AM »
Ah the omaghjoe default position. Have you ever heard of a rhetorical device? Look it up.

Here you go Tiger from wikipedia:

In rhetoric, a rhetorical device or resource of language is a technique that an author or speaker uses to convey to the listener or reader a meaning with the goal of persuading him or her towards considering a topic from a different perspective, using sentences designed to encourage or provoke a rational argument from an emotional display of a given perspective or action. Rhetorical devices can be used to evoke an emotional response in the audience, and that is not their primary purpose.

I dont really see how pointing out the problems with your point is trying to persuade you of anything, and perhaps even more to the point what the problem would be with using a rhetorical device it? Seems to me to be the basis of debate?

Maybe you could explain how I was using a rhetorical device and what the problem with it is?

seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #437 on: October 26, 2016, 06:31:21 AM »
Of course it is we,the taxpayers,who will foot the bill as usual.Time the discredited equality commission was scrapped altogether >:(. You cannot profess to be a Christian then print anti Christian messages, even as part of a business transaction.In fact I would contend that making money by doing so is even more hypocritical, and insulting.

Gay supremacy must be halted now.

No one is forcing them to print anti Christian messages, if Ashers didn't want to print cakes with messages about Gay marriage they don't have to providing they don't then print messages about marriage.  The position would be the same for a Gay baker, if they weren't prepared to print a cake saying support heterosexual marriage only then they couldn't print a cake saying support Gay marriage.

Printing a cake does not mean you ascribe to or endorse the message on the cake.  It simply means you are providing a service.

It was the same for the hotel owners in England, don't want gay couples staying in your hotel thats fine then as long as no couples are entitled to stay. 

It is equality not gay supremacy
Equality is the battlefield. But it is not about equality. The DUP probably paid costs.
The reason this story is so interesting is because it is about 2 ideologies going head to head.
The Shinners are catholic and support gay marriage. But the DUP keeps fobbing them off. Evangelical prods do not accept gay marriage and consider it a sin.

You cant have equality when sin is in the equation. You can't force people to accept sin.


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seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #438 on: October 26, 2016, 06:33:09 AM »
I bet Church of Ireland Prods accept gay marriage
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T Fearon

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #439 on: October 26, 2016, 07:50:47 AM »
If you are a Christian and believe homosexuality (never mind gay marriage) is sinful (and according to scripture,the basis of faith,it is) then it is absurd to be asked or expected to carry out a business transaction in which you are required to suspend or ignore your sincerely held beliefs and facilitate,if not actually endorse something which runs contrary to your beliefs.

manfromdelmonte

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #440 on: October 26, 2016, 08:07:33 AM »
sure all religion is mumbo jumbo

I'm actually going to side on the side of the bakery

they were asked to provide a service, they didn't want to when they saw the job
what is the issue?

same as a mechanic being asked to do a job and then refusing when they see the work that needed to be done

seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #441 on: October 26, 2016, 08:20:59 AM »
If you are a Christian and believe homosexuality (never mind gay marriage) is sinful (and according to scripture,the basis of faith,it is) then it is absurd to be asked or expected to carry out a business transaction in which you are required to suspend or ignore your sincerely held beliefs and facilitate,if not actually endorse something which runs contrary to your beliefs.
Your post that started the whole thing is still on the ball. What a waste of money
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oisinog

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #442 on: October 26, 2016, 08:28:52 AM »
Main street I used those reasons as an example. I'm sure if the owners look hard enough they would have found a legitimate reason to turn the order down.

As I said they were probably targeted but Mr Lee works for am LGBT charity so they may have received several complaints that this was happening. At the end of the day the owners of Asher's are now facing a legal bill of 180000 for turning down a service.
Maybe the  brethren from 'ulster say no  to .....  ( fill in space with appropriate armageddon)'  organised a fighting fund for the Ashers.

i

That the probably did and the amount of advertising they have received probably comes to more than the legal costs.

Hopefully the winners from this will be the LGBT community who's own marriage will be recognised is this wee backward county we live in
Can gay Nordie couples as Irish citizens not get married in the 26 Cos or as Brit citizens not get married in England, Scotland or Wales.


They can but its not recognised as a marriage its a civil partnership

David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #443 on: October 26, 2016, 08:31:50 AM »
If you are a Christian and believe homosexuality (never mind gay marriage) is sinful (and according to scripture,the basis of faith,it is) then it is absurd to be asked or expected to carry out a business transaction in which you are required to suspend or ignore your sincerely held beliefs and facilitate,if not actually endorse something which runs contrary to your beliefs.

No it's not firstly regardless of your beliefs you are bound by the laws of the place where you reside and intend to carry out business. You can not opt of those laws because of your belief. No one is being forced to engage in any sort of transaction. The court ruling was very clear don't want to provide a service to someone based on their sexuality that's fine just don't provide the service to anyone. If you choose to provide that service then do so in accordance with the law.

Secondly providing a service to someone does not mean you endorse them, their way of life or the message they are promoting.  It simply means you are providing a service.


In terms of the costs of the whole thing, the Ashers bakery (and their owners) would most likely have to have paid the costs for the Appeal but the Equality Commission would have met most of their own costs for the original hearing so I suppose we all paid for the case in a way.

seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #444 on: October 26, 2016, 08:54:27 AM »
If you are a Christian and believe homosexuality (never mind gay marriage) is sinful (and according to scripture,the basis of faith,it is) then it is absurd to be asked or expected to carry out a business transaction in which you are required to suspend or ignore your sincerely held beliefs and facilitate,if not actually endorse something which runs contrary to your beliefs.

No it's not firstly regardless of your beliefs you are bound by the laws of the place where you reside and intend to carry out business. You can not opt of those laws because of your belief. No one is being forced to engage in any sort of transaction. The court ruling was very clear don't want to provide a service to someone based on their sexuality that's fine just don't provide the service to anyone. If you choose to provide that service then do so in accordance with the law.

Secondly providing a service to someone does not mean you endorse them, their way of life or the message they are promoting.  It simply means you are providing a service.


In terms of the costs of the whole thing, the Ashers bakery (and their owners) would most likely have to have paid the costs for the Appeal but the Equality Commission would have met most of their own costs for the original hearing so I suppose we all paid for the case in a way.
David

If you are a born again Christian you don't see the world in the same way as other people. Listen to any Katie Taylor interview .
Doing business with means endorsing, for them.
Katie wouldn't sell a cake either.

There have to be smarter ways of getting around the evangelicals
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Rossfan

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #445 on: October 26, 2016, 11:31:08 AM »
So is the ruling that you can't refuse to provide a service to a gay person but if Tony F ( assuming he's hetero :D)
asked them to bake the cake with the same message they can legally refuse?

1 Cupeen so far

oisinog

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #446 on: October 26, 2016, 11:38:45 AM »
So is the ruling that you can't refuse to provide a service to a gay person but if Tony F ( assuming he's hetero :D)
asked them to bake the cake with the same message they can legally refuse?

No they cant legally refuse it as that would still be indirect descrimination.

seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #447 on: October 26, 2016, 02:49:11 PM »
Tom Elliott regrets that he will be unable to attend . . .
NEWTON EMERSON
NEWTON'S OPTIC: Gay pride parades and GAA matches aren’t the only gaps in the UUP leader’s social diary
HAVING RULED out attending GAA matches or gay pride parades, new UUP leader Tom Elliott explains why he will also not be present at the following popular events:
Belfast Giants Game
“I understand that we have several sporting communities here in Northern Ireland and I fully respect that recreational choice, but I must point out that ice hockey is still strongly associated with violence, especially hitting people with sticks. Furthermore, when violence breaks out the clock is stopped and everyone is just expected to wait, which is something I think we have had quite enough of in the pro-union community.”
Ulster Orchestra Concert
“I recognise that the Ulster Orchestra has found room for drums and flutes but there is still far too much emphasis on the harp for me to see it as a shared cymbal.”
Balmoral Agricultural Show
“I do of course come from a farming constituency and I fully acknowledge the right of the agricultural community to pursue their way of life. However, it is a fact that farming involves several unnatural practices – I’m thinking here particularly of artificial insemination – which I find personally offensive both as a Christian and as an animal lover.”
Foyle Halloween Carnival
“Although I have come to accept that the people of Londonderry are practising satanists, this is obviously not something I would ever wish to endorse.”
Hillsborough Oyster Festival
“I don’t want to stop anyone from enjoying themselves or having ‘fun’ under adequately policed and regulated circumstances. But in my experience the Hillsborough Oyster Festival is full of arrogant north Down yuppies who won’t clam up about their cars and house prices, and I’m afraid that I just find the whole thing terribly shellfish.”
Newtownards Air Show
“If God had meant us to fly micro-lights, he would have given lawnmowers wings.”
Auld Lammas Fair
“I appreciate that this is the highlight of the year for the Catholic town of Ballycastle. However, it still only features around 400 stalls, which is not nearly enough stalling for a leader of the Ulster Unionist Party.”
Portrush Raft Race
“I accept that this raises a considerable amount of money for the Royal National Lifeboat Institution. Nevertheless, and despite the word ‘royal’ in its title, the RNLI is a cross-Border body whose existence we did not recognise in the Belfast Agreement. I also feel that if anyone is going to launch themselves on a home-made raft, they should clear it first with my campaign advisers.”
Belfast Fashion Week
“Please see my earlier answer on gay pride parades.”
Christmas Continental Market
“While it is true that some UUP councillors support this event in the grounds of Belfast City Hall, it remains the case that Catholic countries such as France, Spain and Italy are over-represented in comparison to Protestant countries such as Germany and Holland. I am also uncomfortable with the term ‘Continent’, preferring the more accurate term ‘main-mainland’.”
Planet Love
“I welcome the fact that Northern Ireland has a dance music event which attracts people from both traditions, but I feel that the correct place for teenagers to spend a weekend going out of their minds is the Young Unionists annual conference.”
West Belfast Festival
“It’s even more boring than I am.”
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seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #448 on: October 26, 2016, 02:53:12 PM »
100324 NEWTON'S OPTIC: I AM standing on the doorstep of a house in Portadown about to take part in the dining experience du jour, or more precisely du soir . Secret evening Dupper clubs, where D UP voters meet over a meal, are increasingly popular across 54 per cent of Northern Ireland. Peering through the lace curtains into the dining room with attached conservatory, I see a group of people sitting at a long table as if Grant Wood had painted The Last Supper , not that I would expect any of them to get that reference.
Tonight’s event is hosted by Tim Lyttle and Iain Rodgers in their suburban home at No 57, The Development, Bleary. Lyttle (39) is an estate agent, car dealer and lay preacher who divides his time between Portadown and an apartment in Spain. Rodgers (21) is a sports masseur.
“We had the idea for a Dupper club after noticing that DUP voters don’t get invited to dinner parties,” explains Lyttle, ushering me in across the perfectly fitted laminate hallway flooring. “Even if you get invited to one by accident you can’t admit being a DUP voter or it all goes terribly quiet and everyone suddenly has to leave. So we put up an invitation for like-minded people on Facebake, the Ulster-Scots social networking site, and the rest, as they say, is traditional.” Lyttle and Rodgers certainly know their way around a Shaker-style pine fitted kitchen. Over a starter of Scottish farmed salmon on sliced wheaten bread, served with just a dash of Jif lemon, our dining companions introduce themselves. Their varied backgrounds read like the cast of an Ingmar Bergman comedy, not that I would expect them to get that reference either.
To my right is Mervyn Burke (45), a prison officer who also keeps a small dairy herd; Selwyn Black (32), a taxi driver with several buy-to-let properties; and Alwyn Baird (28), a plumber with a flourishing e-bay business in Rangers memorabilia. To my left is no one at all.
A main course of gammon and pineapple with duchess potatoes soon sets mouths watering. Guests are encouraged not to bring alcohol, as both red and white grape Shloer are provided.
“The food is what I’m here for,” Burke says. “Nobody else makes caramel squares with cooking chocolate any more. I know real chocolate is just as cheap these days but that’s not the point. Some things should always be slightly bitter for no good reason. At Dupper club, people understand that.” “This is a great way to socialise,” Black says. “I don’t feel comfortable in cafes since that whole Iris Robinson thing.” “I’m here for the women, Baird says, “which is too bad, because I can’t help noticing that there aren’t any.” “There aren’t any caramel squares either,” Burke says. “If I’d known how much it would cost to be a plumber, I’d have gone to university,” Baird says, starting off what will doubtless be a night of sparkling dinner party conversation.
“Well, this has been absolutely fascinating,” I say, reaching for my coat. “But as you’ve suggested a donation, aren’t you basically running an untaxed and uninsured restaurant? ”Oh, no, never!” Rodgers exclaims. “Never! Never! Never!”
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T Fearon

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #449 on: October 26, 2016, 05:58:40 PM »
While I agree no one should be refused service on account of their sexual leaning,or anything else,there should be limits on product or service adornments/messages,especially when there is a conscience related conflict arising out of such adornments.