Author Topic: Ashers cake controversy.  (Read 47636 times)

Billys Boots

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5938
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2015, 01:11:57 PM »
I think it likely that churches will simply not be allowed do legal marriages at all and regular people will have trail to the registry office and pay extra.

Actually the Catholic Church in Ireland has threatened to withdraw facilitating civil ceremonies if the referendum is passed.

Well that would be a win-win then! 
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...

Sidney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2015, 01:12:39 PM »
I don't see how the bakery discriminated against the customer on the basis of their sexual orientation. The reason for refusal of service was the message on the cake and not the customers sexual orientation.  If the customer had ordered a normal cake they wouldn't have refused service and if a straight person had ordered the same image it would probably have been refused.

The cake shop has to make the cake because they are a cake shop.  If I ordered a cake that said 'I love Samantha', I am not asking the cake shop to endorse that message or ask if Samantha is my wife/girlfriend/bit on the side, just to make the cake.

A gay person shouldn't have to cower in all the shops asking if they would mind making a cake.
Far from being anti-free speech, it's a clearly pro-free speech ruling.

Sidney

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2015, 01:20:46 PM »
I think it likely that churches will simply not be allowed do legal marriages at all and regular people will have trail to the registry office and pay extra.

Actually the Catholic Church in Ireland has threatened to withdraw facilitating civil ceremonies if the referendum is passed.
Typical bully boy tactics from the No side.

muppet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25089
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2015, 01:36:11 PM »
I think it likely that churches will simply not be allowed do legal marriages at all and regular people will have trail to the registry office and pay extra.

Actually the Catholic Church in Ireland has threatened to withdraw facilitating civil ceremonies if the referendum is passed.

Well that would be a win-win then!

Great, we have finally reached a compromise, and with 48 hours to spare.

Yes vote in return for the Church pulling out of civil registrations it is then.
MWWSI 2017

deiseach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8420
    • View Profile
    • Come  on the Déise
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2015, 01:40:36 PM »
I don't see how the bakery discriminated against the customer on the basis of their sexual orientation. The reason for refusal of service was the message on the cake and not the customers sexual orientation.  If the customer had ordered a normal cake they wouldn't have refused service and if a straight person had ordered the same image it would probably have been refused.

The cake shop has to make the cake because they are a cake shop.  If I ordered a cake that said 'I love Samantha', I am not asking the cake shop to endorse that message or ask if Samantha is my wife/girlfriend/bit on the side, just to make the cake.

A gay person shouldn't have to cower in all the shops asking if they would mind making a cake.

It's a fair point. I think the judge has decided that the legislation is designed to rip away mealy-mouthed excuses for not serving someone. If it is accepted that someone doesn't have to make a cake with a gay message on the basis of their religion then they'll soon be claiming they can't serve someone at 2.20pm on a Tuesday afternoon because of their religion and it's a complete coincidence that the customer at that time happens to be gay.

Still, that's not to say there are no repercussions from such a decision. When a print shop in west Belfast is asked to produce t-shirts dedicated to the memory of the Shankill Butchers, don't say you weren't warned.

dferg

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 133
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2015, 01:49:12 PM »
I don't see how the bakery discriminated against the customer on the basis of their sexual orientation. The reason for refusal of service was the message on the cake and not the customers sexual orientation.  If the customer had ordered a normal cake they wouldn't have refused service and if a straight person had ordered the same image it would probably have been refused.

The cake shop has to make the cake because they are a cake shop.  If I ordered a cake that said 'I love Samantha', I am not asking the cake shop to endorse that message or ask if Samantha is my wife/girlfriend/bit on the side, just to make the cake.

A gay person shouldn't have to cower in all the shops asking if they would mind making a cake.

It's a fair point. I think the judge has decided that the legislation is designed to rip away mealy-mouthed excuses for not serving someone. If it is accepted that someone doesn't have to make a cake with a gay message on the basis of their religion then they'll soon be claiming they can't serve someone at 2.20pm on a Tuesday afternoon because of their religion and it's a complete coincidence that the customer at that time happens to be gay.

Still, that's not to say there are no repercussions from such a decision. When a print shop in west Belfast is asked to produce t-shirts dedicated to the memory of the Shankill Butchers, don't say you weren't warned.
You are right, I was thinking that as well.  I guess the cake shop could refuse on the grounds of incitement to racial hatred in the example you give.

screenexile

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10532
  • Up The Screen!
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2015, 01:55:03 PM »
I don't see how the bakery discriminated against the customer on the basis of their sexual orientation. The reason for refusal of service was the message on the cake and not the customers sexual orientation.  If the customer had ordered a normal cake they wouldn't have refused service and if a straight person had ordered the same image it would probably have been refused.

The cake shop has to make the cake because they are a cake shop.  If I ordered a cake that said 'I love Samantha', I am not asking the cake shop to endorse that message or ask if Samantha is my wife/girlfriend/bit on the side, just to make the cake.

A gay person shouldn't have to cower in all the shops asking if they would mind making a cake.

It's a fair point. I think the judge has decided that the legislation is designed to rip away mealy-mouthed excuses for not serving someone. If it is accepted that someone doesn't have to make a cake with a gay message on the basis of their religion then they'll soon be claiming they can't serve someone at 2.20pm on a Tuesday afternoon because of their religion and it's a complete coincidence that the customer at that time happens to be gay.

Still, that's not to say there are no repercussions from such a decision. When a print shop in west Belfast is asked to produce t-shirts dedicated to the memory of the Shankill Butchers, don't say you weren't warned.
You are right, I was thinking that as well.  I guess the cake shop could refuse on the grounds of incitement to racial hatred in the example you give.

Indeed racial or sectarian I guess.

Raging I'm in work apparently it's all kicking off on BBC's Talkback. Lynas has just said "We in the gay community".

Jeepers Creepers

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1093
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2015, 01:58:42 PM »
I wonder just how many different types of people/lifestyles the bible goes against?

David McKeown

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2202
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2015, 01:59:32 PM »
Just read the judgement there. It covers everything raised in here about why Ashers defence of we would have refused the same cake to a heterosexual was rejected. Somewhat complex argument but I see how it's been arrived at. Judgement is available here if you have a spare 45 minutes.

http://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial%20Decisions/PublishedByYear/Documents/2015/%5B2015%5D%20NICty%202/j_j_2015NICty2Final.htm


The Iceman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3739
  • Here comes the Pain
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2015, 03:08:37 PM »
So is this all-encompassing conscience or only for religious conscience?
Or are you still allowed to deny people if you don't agree with them?  There are lots of social experiments out there that show "a woman falling down in the street and we watch to see who picks her up then a homeless woman falls down and people walk over her"...type of thing so a lad in America called up gay-friendly bakeries here and asked them to bake a cake and decorate it with the words "gay marriage is wrong". Bit of a dick move but so are all these social experiments too... Needless to say all the bakeries refused to make the cake.
Where does this sit with the current ruling at Ashers going forward?
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

muppet

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 25089
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2015, 03:13:26 PM »
So is this all-encompassing conscience or only for religious conscience?
Or are you still allowed to deny people if you don't agree with them?  There are lots of social experiments out there that show "a woman falling down in the street and we watch to see who picks her up then a homeless woman falls down and people walk over her"...type of thing so a lad in America called up gay-friendly bakeries here and asked them to bake a cake and decorate it with the words "gay marriage is wrong". Bit of a dick move but so are all these social experiments too... Needless to say all the bakeries refused to make the cake.
Where does this sit with the current ruling at Ashers going forward?

Let them eat cake adorned with messages designed to outrage for a few seconds until the next stunt..
MWWSI 2017

screenexile

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 10532
  • Up The Screen!
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2015, 03:18:20 PM »
So is this all-encompassing conscience or only for religious conscience?
Or are you still allowed to deny people if you don't agree with them?  There are lots of social experiments out there that show "a woman falling down in the street and we watch to see who picks her up then a homeless woman falls down and people walk over her"...type of thing so a lad in America called up gay-friendly bakeries here and asked them to bake a cake and decorate it with the words "gay marriage is wrong". Bit of a dick move but so are all these social experiments too... Needless to say all the bakeries refused to make the cake.
Where does this sit with the current ruling at Ashers going forward?

If you provide a good or service to the public you cannot deny your service because the client is gay or want a gay message on their cake/poster.

Someone mentioned the Shankill butchers thing... that would be incitement to hatred so could be denied.

If a loyalist band comes into your Catholic cake shop for a 25th Anniversary cake you'd better be willing to supply it with a big Union Jack on it or you will be discriminating!!

deiseach

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8420
    • View Profile
    • Come  on the Déise
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2015, 03:21:14 PM »
If a loyalist band comes into your Catholic cake shop for a 25th Anniversary cake you'd better be willing to supply it with a big Union Jack on it or you will be discriminating!!

Je Suis Fleg Cake.

gallsman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7740
  • Retired
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2015, 03:26:37 PM »
So is this all-encompassing conscience or only for religious conscience?
Or are you still allowed to deny people if you don't agree with them?  There are lots of social experiments out there that show "a woman falling down in the street and we watch to see who picks her up then a homeless woman falls down and people walk over her"...type of thing so a lad in America called up gay-friendly bakeries here and asked them to bake a cake and decorate it with the words "gay marriage is wrong". Bit of a dick move but so are all these social experiments too... Needless to say all the bakeries refused to make the cake.
Where does this sit with the current ruling at Ashers going forward?

If you provide a good or service to the public you cannot deny your service because the client is gay or want a gay message on their cake/poster.

Someone mentioned the Shankill butchers thing... that would be incitement to hatred so could be denied.

If a loyalist band comes into your Catholic cake shop for a 25th Anniversary cake you'd better be willing to supply it with a big Union Jack on it or you will be discriminating!!

There are all sorts of incredibly distasteful views that are not illegal or would not count as incitement to racial hatred out there. I believe this case will set a very dangerous precedent.

So is this all-encompassing conscience or only for religious conscience?
Or are you still allowed to deny people if you don't agree with them?  There are lots of social experiments out there that show "a woman falling down in the street and we watch to see who picks her up then a homeless woman falls down and people walk over her"...type of thing so a lad in America called up gay-friendly bakeries here and asked them to bake a cake and decorate it with the words "gay marriage is wrong". Bit of a dick move but so are all these social experiments too... Needless to say all the bakeries refused to make the cake.
Where does this sit with the current ruling at Ashers going forward?

I honestly have no idea what your point is.

Quote
[41]      The Defendants submit that they would have supplied the cake to the Plaintiff without the message ‘support gay marriage’ and would also have refused an order from a heterosexual customer whose order included the same graphics.
 
I do not consider that this is the correct comparator for the reason that it oversimplifies the enquiry. In Gill v Northern Ireland Council for Ethnic Minorities [2001] NIJB 289 Girvan LJ at p.7 para 1 said:-...

[42]      In applying the reasoning from the authorities cited, it is my view that, if a comparator is required, the correct comparator is a heterosexual person placing an order for a cake with the graphics either “Support Marriage” or “Support Heterosexual Marriage.”

I disagree with the judge here. The question was around:

Quote
The Issues
 
(i)        whether there has been any direct discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation;
 
(ii)       whether there has been any indirect discrimination on grounds of sexual orientation;
 
(iii)      whether there has been any direct discrimination on grounds of political opinion or religious belief;
 
(iv)      whether there has been any indirect discrimination on grounds of political opinion or religious belief; and
 
(v)       If so, whether the relevant provisions of the 2006 Regulations or the 1998 Order should be read down so as to take account of the Defendants protected rights to manifest their religious belief in accordance with Article 9 ECHR or their freedom of non-expression under Article 10 ECHR.

For (i) and (ii) above, the variable is sexual orientation, not the message. The judge's suggested comparator changes both.
"Never mind your why. Why ain't in your repetoire no more n***a"

The Iceman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3739
  • Here comes the Pain
    • View Profile
Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2015, 03:39:34 PM »


So is this all-encompassing conscience or only for religious conscience?
Or are you still allowed to deny people if you don't agree with them?  There are lots of social experiments out there that show "a woman falling down in the street and we watch to see who picks her up then a homeless woman falls down and people walk over her"...type of thing so a lad in America called up gay-friendly bakeries here and asked them to bake a cake and decorate it with the words "gay marriage is wrong". Bit of a dick move but so are all these social experiments too... Needless to say all the bakeries refused to make the cake.
Where does this sit with the current ruling at Ashers going forward?

I honestly have no idea what your point is.


the same as yours - but in the form of a question because I wasn't sure. I didn't know if this "conscience clause" would have protected a lot of people or just religious businesses. Could the bakeries who refuse to write "gay marriage is wrong" now be prosecuted? It would seem so....
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight