Author Topic: Ashers cake controversy.  (Read 47709 times)

muppet

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #45 on: November 08, 2014, 04:43:36 PM »
I don't give much of a damn about gay marriage if it is passes or not but I don't think it should be a criminal offence to not support it either as a profession or on a personal level.

It is an interesting case though.

Is denying your services based on sexual orientation, discrimination or religious freedom? There are strong arguments both ways.

My instincts are that my religious freedom or sexual orientation shouldn't impact on someone else's religious freedom or sexual orientation, but it will be interesting to see what the courts think.
Religious freedom is the freedom to believe. I would say the freedom to think but religion itself doesn't encourage people to think.

Religious freedom is not the freedom to act anyway you like and then to justify on the basis of religious belief. I could claim that my religious beliefs are that females should not be educated. A failure to send my daughters to school would still fall foul of the law. A refusal to teach girls/women at my school or university would land me in difficulties with my employers and indeed the law. I would still have the religious freedom to believe though.

If there are any "strong arguments" as to why people should be descriminated based upon their orientation for consensual, private sexual behaviou then my all means detail them here. If there are no such "strong arguments" then it would be wrong to pretend that there are.

Their behaviour in private is not what being impacted upon in this case. It is the complete opposite in fact and very much a public declaration.

I am no fan of organised religion, however to simply dismiss it as an absence of thinking and to declare that there are no such strong arguments, as you have done, is hardly a reasonable position. Many people genuinely believe it is evil. I don't agree with them at all, but education is the answer, not forcing them to your way of thinking.
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LCohen

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #46 on: November 08, 2014, 04:50:32 PM »
I don't give much of a damn about gay marriage if it is passes or not but I don't think it should be a criminal offence to not support it either as a profession or on a personal level.

It is an interesting case though.

Is denying your services based on sexual orientation, discrimination or religious freedom? There are strong arguments both ways.

My instincts are that my religious freedom or sexual orientation shouldn't impact on someone else's religious freedom or sexual orientation, but it will be interesting to see what the courts think.
Religious freedom is the freedom to believe. I would say the freedom to think but religion itself doesn't encourage people to think.

Religious freedom is not the freedom to act anyway you like and then to justify on the basis of religious belief. I could claim that my religious beliefs are that females should not be educated. A failure to send my daughters to school would still fall foul of the law. A refusal to teach girls/women at my school or university would land me in difficulties with my employers and indeed the law. I would still have the religious freedom to believe though.

If there are any "strong arguments" as to why people should be descriminated based upon their orientation for consensual, private sexual behaviou then my all means detail them here. If there are no such "strong arguments" then it would be wrong to pretend that there are.

Their behaviour in private is not what being impacted upon in this case. It is the complete opposite in fact and very much a public declaration.

I am no fan of organised religion, however to simply dismiss it as an absence of thinking and to declare that there are no such strong arguments, as you have done, is hardly a reasonable position. Many people genuinely believe it is evil. I don't agree with them at all, but education is the answer, not forcing them to your way of thinking.
My comments in respect of private acts were in response to the bit in bold. My point still stands.

If there are any strong reasons for discrimination please detail them here and I will respond to them individually.

muppet

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #47 on: November 08, 2014, 05:01:31 PM »
I don't give much of a damn about gay marriage if it is passes or not but I don't think it should be a criminal offence to not support it either as a profession or on a personal level.

It is an interesting case though.

Is denying your services based on sexual orientation, discrimination or religious freedom? There are strong arguments both ways.

My instincts are that my religious freedom or sexual orientation shouldn't impact on someone else's religious freedom or sexual orientation, but it will be interesting to see what the courts think.
Religious freedom is the freedom to believe. I would say the freedom to think but religion itself doesn't encourage people to think.

Religious freedom is not the freedom to act anyway you like and then to justify on the basis of religious belief. I could claim that my religious beliefs are that females should not be educated. A failure to send my daughters to school would still fall foul of the law. A refusal to teach girls/women at my school or university would land me in difficulties with my employers and indeed the law. I would still have the religious freedom to believe though.

If there are any "strong arguments" as to why people should be descriminated based upon their orientation for consensual, private sexual behaviou then my all means detail them here. If there are no such "strong arguments" then it would be wrong to pretend that there are.

Their behaviour in private is not what being impacted upon in this case. It is the complete opposite in fact and very much a public declaration.

I am no fan of organised religion, however to simply dismiss it as an absence of thinking and to declare that there are no such strong arguments, as you have done, is hardly a reasonable position. Many people genuinely believe it is evil. I don't agree with them at all, but education is the answer, not forcing them to your way of thinking.
My comments in respect of private acts were in response to the bit in bold. My point still stands.

If there are any strong reasons for discrimination please detail them here and I will respond to them individually.

We live in free countries. That implies the right to choose to do as we wish, which de facto implies the right to choose not to do something.

If the baker doesn't want to bake a cake then he has a right to choose not to. If he chooses not to do this on religious grounds that is his business. Personally I would like to stop paying tax on religious grounds but I probably won't get anywhere. Why is that? Mainly because religion has existed for a long time and many of the teachings are accepted by the majority of people and indeed often backed up by the law. For example, homosexuality was illegal up to very recently.

Like it or not, the view of the majority decides these things, often in ignorance, not some greater right or wrong.
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Mike Sheehy

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #48 on: November 08, 2014, 05:22:42 PM »
You're such a pussy, Sheehy. I thought you had a point about gay marriage you wanted to make.
Do you think this is an issue where the law can help?

tut, tut..as usual, you resort to insults when you are exposed Seafoid  ::) For such a manipulative , political animal you tend to lose the rag a lot when challenged. You are a bit of a poor mans Machiavelli in this respect.

This most certainly is an issue where the law can help. Gay people should be able to buy a cake in any establishment that sells cakes.  Just substitute "Irish people" or "Catholic" for "gay people" to see how ridiculous your idea of "common sense" sounds.



Maguire01

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2014, 05:37:07 PM »
Bringing this through the courts is going too far.
Why didn't they just go to a gay friendly bakery ?

Because they shouldn't have to
If I wanted a GAA cake I wouldn't go a bakery run by cricket fans.
If I meet soccer fans I don't start talking about Tyrone and Mickey Harte.
 Surely a bit of common sense is in order.

Not everyone is delighted with gay marriage.
And NI is hardly the most progressive 6 counties in the world.

Would a cricket loving baker refuse to decorate a "gaa cake" whatever that might be?

Surely 2 gay men wanting a cake celebrating their mutual love and their desire to get married could reasonably be able to get this service in a bakers that decorates cakes? Not a subset of cake decorators but all cake decorators?
No one was refused a wedding cake.

gallsman

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #50 on: November 08, 2014, 06:05:30 PM »
You're such a pussy, Sheehy. I thought you had a point about gay marriage you wanted to make.
Do you think this is an issue where the law can help?

tut, tut..as usual, you resort to insults when you are exposed Seafoid  ::) For such a manipulative , political animal you tend to lose the rag a lot when challenged. You are a bit of a poor mans Machiavelli in this respect.

This most certainly is an issue where the law can help. Gay people should be able to buy a cake in any establishment that sells cakes.  Just substitute "Irish people" or "Catholic" for "gay people" to see how ridiculous your idea of "common sense" sounds.

They were more than able to buy a cake. Nobody stopped them buying a cake if they do wish. They were refused a specific cake.
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seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #51 on: November 08, 2014, 08:04:21 PM »
You're such a pussy, Sheehy. I thought you had a point about gay marriage you wanted to make.
Do you think this is an issue where the law can help?

tut, tut..as usual, you resort to insults when you are exposed Seafoid  ::) For such a manipulative , political animal you tend to lose the rag a lot when challenged. You are a bit of a poor mans Machiavelli in this respect.

This most certainly is an issue where the law can help. Gay people should be able to buy a cake in any establishment that sells cakes.  Just substitute "Irish people" or "Catholic" for "gay people" to see how ridiculous your idea of "common sense" sounds.
As far as I know you are not Eamonn Dunphy or Spillane and you are not paid money to talk shite.
So you must do it out of a sense of service. I find your whole schtick rather tedious at this stage. Why don't you track someone else? You never have anything to say on any of the threads you parachute into.
I honestly couldn't care less what you think.
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seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #52 on: November 08, 2014, 08:12:20 PM »
There a lot of people in NI who are not particularly fond of gay marriage and bringing them to court is not going to help IMO
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApuOOIv9LZY

People can have equal rights under the law but that doesn't mean they have the right to ask a business to produce whatever they want.
It would be the same with asking a baker in London to bake a fox hunting cake. Why bother ? 
« Last Edit: November 08, 2014, 08:14:27 PM by seafoid »
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Olly

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2014, 08:15:59 PM »
I'm big into gays and stuff but cakes are surely tacky now. A lot of weddings I attend have profiteroles or marsh mallows in chocolate fountains.
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muppet

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2014, 08:46:45 PM »
I'm big into gays and stuff but cakes are surely tacky now. A lot of weddings I attend have profiteroles or marsh mallows in chocolate fountains.

Puff pastry is all the rage now Olly.

That has to go down as a miss........
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LeoMc

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2014, 09:34:24 PM »
You're such a pussy, Sheehy. I thought you had a point about gay marriage you wanted to make.
Do you think this is an issue where the law can help?

tut, tut..as usual, you resort to insults when you are exposed Seafoid  ::) For such a manipulative , political animal you tend to lose the rag a lot when challenged. You are a bit of a poor mans Machiavelli in this respect.

This most certainly is an issue where the law can help. Gay people should be able to buy a cake in any establishment that sells cakes.  Just substitute "Irish people" or "Catholic" for "gay people" to see how ridiculous your idea of "common sense" sounds.

They were more than able to buy a cake. Nobody stopped them buying a cake if they do wish. They were refused a specific cake.
And I think it is fair to say a heterosexual couple would have been refused the same cake so it can be argued they are not discriminating against the couple because they are gay.

Mike Sheehy

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2014, 09:44:25 PM »
You're such a pussy, Sheehy. I thought you had a point about gay marriage you wanted to make.
Do you think this is an issue where the law can help?

tut, tut..as usual, you resort to insults when you are exposed Seafoid  ::) For such a manipulative , political animal you tend to lose the rag a lot when challenged. You are a bit of a poor mans Machiavelli in this respect.

This most certainly is an issue where the law can help. Gay people should be able to buy a cake in any establishment that sells cakes.  Just substitute "Irish people" or "Catholic" for "gay people" to see how ridiculous your idea of "common sense" sounds.
As far as I know you are not Eamonn Dunphy or Spillane and you are not paid money to talk shite.
So you must do it out of a sense of service. I find your whole schtick rather tedious at this stage. Why don't you track someone else? You never have anything to say on any of the threads you parachute into.
I honestly couldn't care less what you think.

More insults.  ::)

It is ironic for you, of all people , to talk about someone having nothing to say. You hardly ever actually "say" anything Seafoid, your usual schtick is to ask leading questions then follow up with a barrage of links. The few times that you actually venture an opinion of your own, as in this case, your shallowness of thought becomes obvious.

seafoid

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2014, 09:48:37 PM »
You're such a pussy, Sheehy. I thought you had a point about gay marriage you wanted to make.
Do you think this is an issue where the law can help?

tut, tut..as usual, you resort to insults when you are exposed Seafoid  ::) For such a manipulative , political animal you tend to lose the rag a lot when challenged. You are a bit of a poor mans Machiavelli in this respect.

This most certainly is an issue where the law can help. Gay people should be able to buy a cake in any establishment that sells cakes.  Just substitute "Irish people" or "Catholic" for "gay people" to see how ridiculous your idea of "common sense" sounds.
As far as I know you are not Eamonn Dunphy or Spillane and you are not paid money to talk shite.
So you must do it out of a sense of service. I find your whole schtick rather tedious at this stage. Why don't you track someone else? You never have anything to say on any of the threads you parachute into.
I honestly couldn't care less what you think.

More insults.  ::)

It is ironic for you, of all people , to talk about someone having nothing to say. You hardly ever actually "say" anything Seafoid, your usual schtick is to ask leading questions then follow up with a barrage of links. The few times that you actually venture an opinion of your own, as in this case, your shallowness of thought becomes obvious.
Fine Sheehy
If it's so pointless why do you follow me around ?
Could you not latch on to someone more interesting  ?
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Mike Sheehy

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2014, 09:51:58 PM »
There a lot of people in NI who are not particularly fond of gay marriage and bringing them to court is not going to help IMO
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApuOOIv9LZY

People can have equal rights under the law but that doesn't mean they have the right to ask a business to produce whatever they want.
It would be the same with asking a baker in London to bake a fox hunting cake. Why bother ?

There was a time when people would have viewed marching for civil rights in Missisippi or Derry as "provocative" acts.

Stop being such a dinosaur.

LCohen

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2014, 10:00:16 PM »
I don't give much of a damn about gay marriage if it is passes or not but I don't think it should be a criminal offence to not support it either as a profession or on a personal level.

It is an interesting case though.

Is denying your services based on sexual orientation, discrimination or religious freedom? There are strong arguments both ways.

My instincts are that my religious freedom or sexual orientation shouldn't impact on someone else's religious freedom or sexual orientation, but it will be interesting to see what the courts think.
Religious freedom is the freedom to believe. I would say the freedom to think but religion itself doesn't encourage people to think.

Religious freedom is not the freedom to act anyway you like and then to justify on the basis of religious belief. I could claim that my religious beliefs are that females should not be educated. A failure to send my daughters to school would still fall foul of the law. A refusal to teach girls/women at my school or university would land me in difficulties with my employers and indeed the law. I would still have the religious freedom to believe though.

If there are any "strong arguments" as to why people should be descriminated based upon their orientation for consensual, private sexual behaviou then my all means detail them here. If there are no such "strong arguments" then it would be wrong to pretend that there are.

Their behaviour in private is not what being impacted upon in this case. It is the complete opposite in fact and very much a public declaration.

I am no fan of organised religion, however to simply dismiss it as an absence of thinking and to declare that there are no such strong arguments, as you have done, is hardly a reasonable position. Many people genuinely believe it is evil. I don't agree with them at all, but education is the answer, not forcing them to your way of thinking.
My comments in respect of private acts were in response to the bit in bold. My point still stands.

If there are any strong reasons for discrimination please detail them here and I will respond to them individually.

We live in free countries. That implies the right to choose to do as we wish, which de facto implies the right to choose not to do something.

If the baker doesn't want to bake a cake then he has a right to choose not to. If he chooses not to do this on religious grounds that is his business. Personally I would like to stop paying tax on religious grounds but I probably won't get anywhere. Why is that? Mainly because religion has existed for a long time and many of the teachings are accepted by the majority of people and indeed often backed up by the law. For example, homosexuality was illegal up to very recently.

Like it or not, the view of the majority decides these things, often in ignorance, not some greater right or wrong.
So wahat are these "strong reasons" for discrimination? You seem reluctant to post them.

In a free country you do not have the freedom to do as you wish - you have the freedom to act within the law. This is case is to help define that law. What could be wrong with that (irrespective of what the result is)?

The baker does not have perfect freedom. He is alos bound by the law. His religious freedoms do not exempt from the law and I gave examples earlier/above as to the difference between religious belief/freedom and the law. When at odds the law triumphs.