Author Topic: Ashers cake controversy.  (Read 47047 times)

Owenmoresider

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #525 on: October 10, 2018, 02:06:22 PM »
Supreme court rules in favour of Asher's.

I think that's the correct outcome. You should be allowed to accept or decline any work you see fit.
Well said.

macdanger2

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #526 on: October 10, 2018, 02:11:20 PM »
I agree that it wasn't discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation, as the judge said, they would have refused to make the cake for anyone.

I find it harder to understand that it wasn't discrimination on ground of political views though since they (presumably) wouldn't have refused to make a cake that said "oppose gay marriage"

Franko

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #527 on: October 10, 2018, 02:14:33 PM »
Think it was the wrong decision, strictly for the fact that they are citing their deeply held religious beliefs as the reasoning.  Are they denying services to adulterers, divorced couples, those who engage in premarital sex etc.

Cherry picking orthodox morality looks suspiciously like bigotry.

A spectacular misreading of the case at hand.  They have made it abundantly clear that they are not denying service to this man because of his sexual orientation.  They had served him in the past and have stated that they would continue to serve him in future.

I could be wrong but I'm also pretty sure that they would have refused requests for a cake saying "support adultery", "support divorce" or "support premarital sex".

David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #528 on: October 10, 2018, 02:22:52 PM »
Supreme court rules in favour of Asher's.

I think that's the correct outcome. You should be allowed to accept or decline any work you see fit.
Well said.

But if we take that to itís conclusion then you have a situation whereby for example everyone refuses to do work thatís requested only by a particularly minority which is discrimination.

five points

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #529 on: October 10, 2018, 02:26:41 PM »
But if we take that to itís conclusion then you have a situation whereby for example everyone refuses to do work thatís requested only by a particularly minority which is discrimination.

It's only ever a particular minority that will ever request a "SUPPORT THE LVF!" cake.

trileacman

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #530 on: October 10, 2018, 02:32:03 PM »
Supreme court rules in favour of Asher's.

I think that's the correct outcome. You should be allowed to accept or decline any work you see fit.
Well said.

But if we take that to itís conclusion then you have a situation whereby for example everyone refuses to do work thatís requested only by a particularly minority which is discrimination.

https://www.rte.ie/news/2018/1010/1002126-belfast_gay_cake/

Think you need to read the ruling. I find it hard to challenge that argument.
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David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #531 on: October 10, 2018, 02:32:35 PM »
But if we take that to itís conclusion then you have a situation whereby for example everyone refuses to do work thatís requested only by a particularly minority which is discrimination.

It's only ever a particular minority that will ever request a "SUPPORT THE LVF!" cake.

Again thatís a different scenario. Firstly the protected class in that circumstance is likely either religion or political belief. Then it will be a small minority within that class who would make such a request. This is not such a case. Support for gay marriage from within the LGBT community is considerably higher than support for the LVF within the aforementioned protected classes. With any discrimination law there will always be extreme examples that can be used. The first instant judgement does very well at explaining why the law has to distinguish those extreme examples from the more common examples the law is designed to prevent.

five points

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #532 on: October 10, 2018, 02:36:49 PM »
Again thatís a different scenario. Firstly the protected class in that circumstance is likely either religion or political belief. Then it will be a small minority within that class who would make such a request. This is not such a case. Support for gay marriage from within the LGBT community is considerably higher than support for the LVF within the aforementioned protected classes. With any discrimination law there will always be extreme examples that can be used. The first instant judgement does very well at explaining why the law has to distinguish those extreme examples from the more common examples the law is designed to prevent.

I don't get you. Support for gay marriage is not exclusive to nor synonymous with being gay or a member of the LGBT community.  Gay marriage is clearly a political cause, as Irish unity is. If the logic applied to a particular case does not apply generally, it is likely to be flawed.

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #533 on: October 10, 2018, 02:38:19 PM »
Supreme court rules in favour of Asher's.

I think that's the correct outcome. You should be allowed to accept or decline any work you see fit.
Well said.

But if we take that to itís conclusion then you have a situation whereby for example everyone refuses to do work thatís requested only by a particularly minority which is discrimination.

Ok - someone wants you to do some plumbing work for them, let's say a black gay woman who is protestant. But you know they're a slow payer and you're a bit busy. You say no. Is that then discrimination?
Just because you're Gay, or Black, or a Woman or a Catholic or a Muslim or whatever and someone says no to you, you don't automatically have an equality case. Sometimes people just don't want to do it and you have to be fine with that and move on to the next plumber or baker or whatever.
The equality commission probably took this case in the first instance because they feared that if they didn't they'd be sued by the... er... the equality commission. It's really time someone called stop on all this madness.
Where a case exists, in clear instances yes it should rightly be prosecuted but if someone refuses TO DO WORK FOR YOU, then I think people need to wise up. 


David McKeown

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #534 on: October 10, 2018, 02:59:25 PM »
Supreme court rules in favour of Asher's.

I think that's the correct outcome. You should be allowed to accept or decline any work you see fit.
Well said.

But if we take that to itís conclusion then you have a situation whereby for example everyone refuses to do work thatís requested only by a particularly minority which is discrimination.

Ok - someone wants you to do some plumbing work for them, let's say a black gay woman who is protestant. But you know they're a slow payer and you're a bit busy. You say no. Is that then discrimination?
Just because you're Gay, or Black, or a Woman or a Catholic or a Muslim or whatever and someone says no to you, you don't automatically have an equality case. Sometimes people just don't want to do it and you have to be fine with that and move on to the next plumber or baker or whatever.
The equality commission probably took this case in the first instance because they feared that if they didn't they'd be sued by the... er... the equality commission. It's really time someone called stop on all this madness.
Where a case exists, in clear instances yes it should rightly be prosecuted but if someone refuses TO DO WORK FOR YOU, then I think people need to wise up.

No that wouldnít be discrimination as the reason they are asking for plumbing work is nothing to do with their race, colour sexual orientation etc. Todayís ruling in no way effects that. You could have refused that work yesterday and you can refuse today.

The reason the Ashers case is different is because the support gay marriage logo is almost exclusively only to be requested either by those of the LGBT community or those whoís political beliefs equate to support of gay marriage. Therefore the refusal to provide it couple with having to objection to providing a contrary slogan amounts to discrimination. In my view indirect discrimination in the original view direct discrimination

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #535 on: October 10, 2018, 03:23:15 PM »
Supreme court rules in favour of Asher's.

I think that's the correct outcome. You should be allowed to accept or decline any work you see fit.
Well said.

But if we take that to itís conclusion then you have a situation whereby for example everyone refuses to do work thatís requested only by a particularly minority which is discrimination.

Ok - someone wants you to do some plumbing work for them, let's say a black gay woman who is protestant. But you know they're a slow payer and you're a bit busy. You say no. Is that then discrimination?
Just because you're Gay, or Black, or a Woman or a Catholic or a Muslim or whatever and someone says no to you, you don't automatically have an equality case. Sometimes people just don't want to do it and you have to be fine with that and move on to the next plumber or baker or whatever.
The equality commission probably took this case in the first instance because they feared that if they didn't they'd be sued by the... er... the equality commission. It's really time someone called stop on all this madness.
Where a case exists, in clear instances yes it should rightly be prosecuted but if someone refuses TO DO WORK FOR YOU, then I think people need to wise up.

No that wouldnít be discrimination as the reason they are asking for plumbing work is nothing to do with their race, colour sexual orientation etc. Todayís ruling in no way effects that. You could have refused that work yesterday and you can refuse today.

The reason the Ashers case is different is because the support gay marriage logo is almost exclusively only to be requested either by those of the LGBT community or those whoís political beliefs equate to support of gay marriage. Therefore the refusal to provide it couple with having to objection to providing a contrary slogan amounts to discrimination. In my view indirect discrimination in the original view direct discrimination

The key bit is that they didn't want to do the work. They were prepared to serve him, but they didn't want to that particular piece of work. That's not discrimination, that's just not wanting to do that piece of work.

BennyCake

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #536 on: October 10, 2018, 03:24:41 PM »
By the way, have Sesame Street declared that bert and ernie are in fact gay? If not, then they should sue yer man for character assassination

hardstation

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #537 on: October 10, 2018, 03:33:26 PM »
Is it not the case that they didnít want to produce and sell a particular product?
Thatís not exactly the same as doing work. They are happy to do work for this man, they just arenít happy to make and sell the requested product to anyone.


Jim Bob

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #538 on: October 10, 2018, 03:33:37 PM »
Anyone else bored of this story and let out a groan when it appeared in the headlines today knowing that we are going to have to put up with more of it in the next few days?

Armamike

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Re: Ashers cake controversy.
« Reply #539 on: October 10, 2018, 04:40:12 PM »
Why did the Supreme Court come to a different conclusion on this one?  Was there any new detail submitted that wasn't available earlier or is it just a different interpretation?
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