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Messages - MayoBuck

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1
GAA Discussion / Re: Mayo for Sam 2019
« on: April 05, 2019, 11:42:23 PM »
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.

You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.

I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.

Again you're completely missing the point. Tyrone would not have won the game if they had a forward like O'Connor in my opinion. Our problems with frees have been generally we don't have a reliable free taker from long range, I think the stats suggest that O'Connor is fairly hit and miss from that range too. I think we have forwards who offer more from open play than O'Connor does but our style of play means they don't get the kind of service they would do with Mayo. He's a bit like how I would regard McCurry and McAliskey etc, good but not top level.

I brought up McAliskey earlier, I think he's a very good player and an important member of our squad, he was the second top scorer in championship football last season - both overall and from play. I wouldn't say he is a top level forward though, I'd probably have him over O'Connor given the choice as while he may not be as clinical a finisher, his movement is better, he shows for the ball more, has a better left foot and a bit more flair and pace about him. He didn't even get an all star nomination last year so that goes to show that scoring heavily for a county who goes to the end of the summer doesn't really say a lot.

It's lazy analysis to constantly point to the scoring charts when valid criticisms of O'Connor are brought to the fore, the vast bulk of O'Connor's scores would seem to be placed balls inside or around the central area of the 20 metre line on the pitch - they are gimmees for any decent, even average free taker. Mayo will always generate more of these frees than the vast majority of teams with the pace and direct nature of the game they play - so if Mayo perform at all then O'Connor is going to score a bucket load, regardless of how well or poorly he plays.

As for Tyrone's issue with frees, we don't have an issue with the handy 21 yard frees in front of the posts, we have plenty of players who can tap those over with their eyes closed. We have had an issue for a number of years with the long range frees, I don't think O'Connor really fares an awful lot better than our lads in that area though, it can be quite misleading though as I think in terms of proportion of frees, Mayo seem to get much more handy frees closer in to goal than Tyrone do due to the differing styles of play of both sides.

Rather than getting overly sensitive I think you need to be looking more objectively at what the criticisms proffered up are actually saying. Nobody is criticising him for scoring 21 yard frees but when his scoring record over the past number of years is put forward, it has to be noted that a lot of the scores he gets are from handy frees in front of the posts that he does little in terms of winning but he will be the guys who gets the plaudits for the scores. It's a fair comment and just because O'Connor regularly tops the scoring charts it doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the line of criticisms.

If you want to win an All Ireland and you've been mightily close to in recent years, you have got to look at the starting players and the little margins they can improve upon to win it. If I look across the Mayo starting XV and look at what players possibly need to be doing more, the two that would have jumped out at me in recent years are Aidan O'Shea and Cillian O'Connor.

A lot in that but I'll just focus on the 1st paragraph. Anyone who watched that game in 2016 would have seen the difference between Cillian and the Tyrone forwards, from play and frees. It's all a matter of opinion, but I'd say you're in the minority if you don't think Cillian is a fair bit better than them.

I'd also disagree with your claim that Cillian gets brilliant service playing for mayo. The problem with our forward play over the last few years is that we don't kick it in enough. Too many players (Vaughan, SOS, Parsons etc) just put the head down and carry the ball into traffic. Almost impossible for inside forwards to play well in that situation. Put Cillian in the Dublin team or possibly Kerry and his scores from play would have been much higher.

2
GAA Discussion / Re: Mayo for Sam 2019
« on: April 05, 2019, 10:11:57 PM »
All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.

You'd swear Cillian is the only person who scores 21 yard frees. Gooch would have scored plenty of them in his day, as does Rock, Shane Walsh, McManus, McBrearty etc these days. Look at Sean O'Shea the last day. Scored 5 frees but missed the 2 most difficult ones he had. Accuracy tends to drop the further away from goal you go.

I didn't want to start naming names but since you brought up Conor McAliskey earlier, do you not remember the 2016 quarter final? Tyrone were every bit as good as us in general play but McAliskey and other Tyrone forwards couldn't score from play and missed several frees. Tyrone would have won the game easily if they had a forward of Cillian's calibre.

3
GAA Discussion / Re: Mayo for Sam 2019
« on: April 04, 2019, 05:54:46 PM »
Am i right in saying that this will be Aidan O'Shea 11th senior championship year with Mayo?

Yeah he made his debut in 2009 straight out of minor. Scored a goal against Meath in the quarter final defeat.

4
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: April 02, 2019, 07:49:43 PM »
Mayo were very impressive yesterday and I think they look rejuvenated this year. Aidan O'Shea looks as lean as I've seen him for Mayo and seems to be lasting the pace of the game much better, he hasn't really delivered for Mayo but this is the year.

They will likely pose the biggest threat to Dublin this year with Tyrone next in line.

Kerry look pretty average and were bulled all over the pitch yesterday, they seem to be really lacking in leaders. Mayo destroyed them when the game was in the melting pot.
Gas.
Imagine how different the narrative would be had Clifford not missed the sitter at the end! People would be totally writing off Mayo as bottlers! Instead itís Kerry were bullied and have no leaders!

Kerry are a young team, who will learn loads from Sundayís game. Plus David Moran will make a huge difference.

A lot of planets aligned for Mayo to win a National League title yesterday.

The first and most important reason was Dublin taking a rest during the League this year.

The Second was Mayo going out early in the Championship last year. 

If ever there was an opportunity for to claim springtime Silverware this was the chance.

This Kerry team have been greatly over hyped based on past underage glory.

All true. To an extent. Hound is correct in that a Clifford goal at the end would have resulted in a different narrative today and different photos. We probably should have won by more, but any win at ht looked unlikely because Kerry's defensive set up was fazing us.
Another other reason we managed to win it, was the contribution of new players that can play at this level. Really play. It is apparent here that Horan is not going with players that Rochford used to call on.
I don't think it fazed Mayo at all, look at how easy Vaughan got in for his goal chance 1st half and Boland opted to fist over the bar when the goal was on. Mayo looked to exploit rookie Graham OíSullivan all game and he was caught badly out of position for that Tracey goal that sealed the win. I also thought the Kerry full back line got weaker once Sherwood was subbed off.

A big part of Horan's first time as manager with Mayo 2011-2014 was getting the most out of the 2006 U21 All Ireland winners and now he's looking to do the same with 2016 U21 All Ireland winners yet some think underage success means little when it comes to senior football.

I thought Sherwood was the biggest weak link in the Kerry defence. He was marking Darren Coen in the 1st half and Coen won every ball that went in to him. He got switched on to James Carr for the 2nd half and was getting well beat by him before being taken off.

5
GAA Discussion / Re: Mayo for Sam 2019
« on: April 01, 2019, 11:38:34 PM »
Cillian gets plenty of scores from play. I honestly don't know how that myth is still out there.

He scored a stunning goal against Kerry in the 2011 semi final despite only being 19. Scored a hat trick against Donegal in the 2013 quarter final. When do you ever see a hat trick in Gaelic football? Excellent in both semi-finals vs Kerry in 2014. Carried the side vs Dublin in 2015. 3 points from play in the low scoring quarter final win vs Tyrone in 2016. Super equaliser vs Dublin in the drawn final. 3 points from play in the 2017 final. Many other examples too.

I can understand opposition fans don't like his off the ball stuff but you can't deny he's a prolific scorer.

6
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: April 01, 2019, 06:20:11 PM »
Great win! Watched back most of the game again and didn't realise at the time how well Aidan played. He was motm by a mile IMO. Diarmuid was poor for the first 51 minutes. Not in the game at all and his man scored 1-1. Had a super last 20 however. Scored 1-2, turned Crowley over when he was bearing down on goal again and then after Clifford cut the gap to 1 point at the end he won the resulting kickout which led to the Treacy goal.

Doherty and Hennelly had a mare with the dead balls. Could have proved costly.

Probably won't be too many changes to that side for championship. Cillian will come in for Coen more than likely and Clarke may get back ahead of Hennelly. Vaughan did okay but I think we'd be better off with Michael Plunkett at centre half back and Keegan/Durcan on the wings. Fionn McDonagh's injury came at the wrong time. He probably won't get back in now.

7
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: March 30, 2019, 06:36:05 PM »
Has anybody seen the subs bench? I can't find it anywhere. An awful lot is going to depend on the options available to Horan during the course of the game.

We won't know the subs for sure till we get our mitts on a programe.

A lot of panel members lined out for their clubs today so you can make a good estimate about who's on the bench.

8
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: March 24, 2019, 08:57:03 PM »
Mayo v Kerry final as expected before today games and Cavan,Roscommon relegated as expected before any league game was played this year but Monaghan are lucky to stay up and can thank Cavan for bringing the rossies down to Div 2 with them.

A few strange scorelines today, Mayo conceding 1-17 today by far the biggest score they have conceded in this league which i think still shows the importance of Keegan,Higgins,Boyle to the side.

Biggest score Galway have conceded in a league group game for ages and that score conceded and margin of defeat might open the door for a few Corofin defenders now.

No surprise with the big score Kerry got as they will always score big against sides that defend poorly against them and had Clifford back today to boost their scoring power.

Keegan, Higgins and Boyle played against Dublin when we were wide open at the back. I think a big difference today was the fine weather. Our games against Roscommon, Galway and Kerry were played in horrendous conditions. That will always lead to a low scoring game.

9
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: March 24, 2019, 08:53:30 PM »
Good win today and nice to be in a league final, would be great to win it. McLoughlin, Boland, Harrison and Doc all very good I thought. Ruane good again also before he went off, Gibbons didn't do well when he came on. Some very good movement in the forwards at times although we didn't always get scores from it

Any word on Clarke's injury?

I thought Darren Coen did very well at full forward winning ball and linking the play. Great composure from McLoughlin for the 2 goals.

Conceded a big score which would be a worry heading into a game against Kerry. Clarke was out on the pitch after the game and looked okay. Think it might have been a knock to the head that forced him off.

10
GAA Discussion / Re: TG4 - Club Championships Coverage
« on: March 18, 2019, 06:12:10 PM »
There's more clubs in Cork and Dublin, at what level does there junior and intermediate grades start. How can most counties have a 12_16 senior division with fewer teams than Kerry yet they can manage on 8.Why is Kerry and Cork the only counties who play the divisional and systems. A team playing division 1 league should not be allowed to entry a championship a level below

I wouldn't have a problem with that. League position shouldn't have a bearing on what championship grade you are. You see it in mayo regularly where intermediate clubs get up to division one and compete strongly, mainly because the county players aren't playing. Once all county players are back later in the year, the same club is unable to win the intermediate championship.

11
GAA Discussion / Re: TG4 - Club Championships Coverage
« on: March 18, 2019, 05:11:10 PM »
Kerry being allowed to enter the club's they do into the all Ireland is a joke. How many genuine, small hard working parishes have been denied a once in a lifetime all Ireland win by clubs that should never have been there in the first place.
How many more years will that farce be allowed continue and the media keep lauding the achievement as if it were honestly earned.

It's not easy for the GAA to step in as every county sets up their club championships in their own way. Kerry only have 8 senior clubs so their intermediate/junior winners will always have an advantage over Mayo, Galway, Dublin etc. However other counties also have only 8 senior clubs and it's not doing them any good.

With the playing numbers and tradition in Kerry, they should really have 16 senior clubs.

12
GAA Discussion / Re: TG4 - Club Championships Coverage
« on: March 17, 2019, 04:18:57 PM »
Red card for Crokes. Deserved

probably but did he need to hold his head when the contact was with his chest ?

There was blood coming from his mouth!

13
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: March 03, 2019, 11:12:49 AM »
Willie Joe's blog makes entertaining reading this morning. "Galway always target the league and will be pooped come August" after Galway beat Mayo while missing 2/3rds of their panel. "I'd rather lose than play as defensively as Galway tonight". This is a game where Galway with 13 players scored 1-1 against a Mayo side that funneled everyone back to defend that 2 man advantage. In fairness you get weirdos in every bunch, they just seem to have a high number count over there

Another poster said if we had some of Carlow or Leitrim's forwards we would have an All Ireland at this stage.  ::)

14
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: March 03, 2019, 01:33:26 AM »
Conceding a goal like that with 2 extra players is scandalous. Dunno why Michael Plunkett was dropped for the last 2 games, he'd been settling in well. Keegan and Boyle are way off their best. Conor Diskin looked promising in the opening 2 games but he's dropped off the scene completely.

Horan is rotating the team a lot but there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to it.

15
GAA Discussion / Re: NFL Division 1 2019 Dubs again?
« on: March 02, 2019, 02:41:25 PM »
Clear skies around the county at the moment but some serious gales. Will be as bad as the Roscommon game if not worse.

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