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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

Title: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
I honestly think it's time to give this another thought.  The reality is that the All-Ireland will probably be won by one of four teams.  For the rest of us it's just a matter of how far we can go.  It's not if but when we will be beaten.  I have to admit I was no big fan of the Tommy Murphy cup but I'm beginning to think that once division 3 and 4 teams are beaten, (before a certain date) they should play in a b championship with the winners and runners up rejoining the championship at the quarter final stages (or the runner up joining one stage earlier).  It's time for the tortoises to stop running against the hares.

I know a lot of the managers are not a big fan of this but I think in time they might warm to it.  The chance to be competitive and win something could eventually swing the pendelum.
I put up a poll to see what the appetite is.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on June 26, 2017, 12:58:10 PM
I look at the complete mess that the Gaa has made of the tiered hurling championship and that makes me have to say no.
Look at the Christy Ring final this year.  The hurling secondary tier competition.
Was not covered live on any of the national TV stations.
Vey little coverage in the media.
And all finished up by the end of June.
A secondary football competition would be given lip service for a year or two and then would slowly be let fade away into insignificance.  That's what has happened time and time again with "b" championships. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 01:02:06 PM
RTE interviewed 10 'lower tier' managers about it, and only the Longford manager seemed strongly in favour of a B championship. The rest either didn't want it at all, or wanted it as a 'losers competition' for teams beaten early in the championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Tubberman on June 26, 2017, 01:07:35 PM
If the secondary competition winner was awarded a 3rd or 4th round qualifier spot, I think there may be more of an appetite for it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:05:12 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 26, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
More to a cup competition than who can win it. The underdog stories like Down winning against the odds v Monaghan last Saturday or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on June 26, 2017, 02:11:48 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Fair point but it does not hide the gap (at the moment) between the top 12 and the rest.
Would the winners and runners up of  "B" having a play in game to the Q/finals not be a better option. At least the teams in question would have three or four wins under their belt at that stage, rather than the one and done the majority of them face right now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:13:33 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 26, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
I think a better way of looking a t it would be to have staged entry into the one competition depending on league standings.

so div 3& 4 enter at round 1, the winners play the div 2 teams in round 2, the winners of that play the div 1 teams in round 3 .

This would be similar to the way the FA cup is structured with the Premier league teams coming in at the 3rd round stage.

This would give every county in Ireland the opportunity to play in the Sam Maguire competition, and return us to the proper knockout format we used to have.

The main stumbling block will be the resistance to separate the all Ireland from the provincial competitions.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rosnarun on June 26, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.

I was at the offaly V Cavan game last night and came away feeling bad for offaly . its very hard to build a  system with only a few games a years they have several excellent players but who knows how many of them will be there next summer and maybe even a new manager so they have no time to build they could definitely benefit from a secondary competition esp with a round robin element  . A not so super 8 if you like.
one incentive id like to see is a way back into the A system to keep every one interested.

Im sure TG4 would love to cover it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 26, 2017, 02:31:47 PM
There is little appetite for a B or C competition despite all of the logic in favour of it.  Counties want to have a go every year.

A better approach would be to seed the competition according to league position and give the lower division teams a chance to compete with each other and in their provinces before the higher divisions joins the competition.  The bottom 16 could be reduced to 4 teams. Teams would still get 2 meaningful knockout games as present.

This gives a knockout competition to lower division teams with the chance of those surviving the next rounds a chance to giant kill.  It would remove the qualifiers and have the provincial competitions as secondary to the AI competition with only winers making it through to a final 8 knockout competition.

Unfortunately, this will never fly with those wanting to milk the spectators with the super 8 games which show who the GAA management are really interested in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:37:01 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.

Leinster is actually decent to watch when the Dubs aren't playing :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 03:08:17 PM
I agree completely with AZ's penultimate post. The topic is primarily media-driven.

Having said that, I think the best chance of a change being made is to provide a route from any second or third division championship back into the race for the All-Ireland.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 26, 2017, 03:13:40 PM
I realise that many of the managers didn't actually state they wanted a B championship but the sentiment amongst many of them that there wasn't enough games.

Entry to round 4 qualifier or even a quarter final place for winners of such a competition should satisfy the needs of all counties taking part.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
That's what I said AZ. People are saying we need a 2 or 3 tier championship but it's usually just games involving Kerry and Dublin in their provinces that are completely one sided. Mayo rarely hammer anyone in Connacht though Tyrone have wiped the floor with Derry and Donegal so far in Ulster.

Remove those teams from the provincials and all of a sudden it's quite interesting again.
Kildare, W-Meath or Meath would be rejuvenated if they won Leinster and went into the 1/4 finals with that win under their belt. Kildare in 2010 was the last time a Leinster team got to the semis besides the Dubs.

In the last 6 years Dublin and Mayo have been in the semis every year with Kerry missing out one year in 2012.
Tyrone and Donegal have usually been the 4th team though Tipperary took that prize last year.

2016 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tipp
2015 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2014 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2013 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2012 Cork,  Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2011 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on June 26, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

if the panel of 25-30, that makes up each intercounty squad, existed in isolation to solely play for the county, then yes some sort of second or third tier competition, after an initial provincial defeat, may serve a purpose to fill the remainder of their summer. But these panellists are not the property of the intercounty scene, they also have their clubs to serve. Many clubs throughout the land and their inter county players, would probably place more masse in concentrating on winning the local club championship than seeing these players on county duty at 2nd or 3rd tier level deep into july or august, playing in games attracting poor attendances and given lip service by the media, with possibly 1 or 2 minutes of highlights(if any on RTE).

The only way for the weak to build is through a decent league campaign and then look forward to championship scalp, the dream of the scalp fosters the reason for  the hard work during the winter months.....take away the dream and the application is likely to be diluted.

for example, Antrim are rated the poorest outfit in Ulster. Once every ten years or so, they do pop up and beat a perceived superior rival in the Ulster championship. I am sure the vast majority associated with Antrim would prefer the crack at a shock in ulster each year in preference to a first round 3rd tier game against say Waterford in front of 200 people in Dungarvan.


Clubs are entitled to their players from July onwards, and the GAA was set up in an original way whereby most counties were finished the intercounty scene by the end of July bar the all Ireland semi finalists.  Creating 2nd and 3rd tier levels will make a dogs ear of the club championship scene in many counties.

straight knockout was and remains the best option for intercounty GAA....it is not returning because Croke Park now needs to maximise gate receipts to pay for a raft of full time officials(including secretaries in counties)..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness.

in truth, introducing 2nd and 3rd tier competitions will sound a death knell to the competitiveness of many counties, as player interest and supporter interest in the system will gradually erode.

we have had the lower tier hurling competitions for a number of years, and not one of the minnows have made any shape of getting closer to the elite 8/9....in fact in truth, from an original competitive 12 or so, the likes of Offaly, Antrim and Laois are falling further away each season from the top 8/9, and nothing outside the top 9 will be competitive in that top bracket for the foreseeable future.

creating tiers 2 and 3 for football is the GAAs apartheid.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PAULD123 on June 26, 2017, 04:07:51 PM
..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness......

Enthusiasts on these forums try to solve sporting issues. The Sporting administrators are trying to solve financial issues.

Sad but all too true
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on June 26, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath

Re-entering the championship in the present year is complete nonsense.

The idea that weak counties necessarily have great club championships because their county teams are out early is also a bit suspect, is the Carlow club championship better than that of Dublin or Kerry?

And as for straight knockout, the extra games  not only serve to raise money but serve to raise the profile of the GAA which brings in many of the people who are in these clubs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Taylor on June 26, 2017, 04:41:22 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.

If it was done properly there is no reason why it wouldnt succeed on a National level.

Main issue would been apathy towards anything other than the big one. Marketing would be key here in making it attractive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 26, 2017, 04:50:17 PM
the main issue here is the Dubs.
and the imbalance of them getting most games in Croke Park.

there isn't as big a gap between all the other counties playing in provinical venues
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 04:54:28 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.


Exactly and that's my favourite with promition/relegation as in Club championships across the Country.
I would still retain the Provincials with all in and then 3 AI Championships.
Make the TV deal so that for every Senior game the TV company would have to do an Inter and Junior game too.

A 2 tier thingy will do nothing for the 6 or 8 weakest teams and if it's not part of a promotion relegation structure then the B is only a tournament for a shiny cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:59:42 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
So Dublin get Wicklow and beat them by 30 points in each leg. I'd say Wicklow would be happier with one hammering and a chance at a more favourable draw in the back door.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
No matter who Dublin get unless another top 3 team, they will most likely win by 20+ points.
Dublin away to Donegal, Monaghan or Tyrone would be an exciting game.
I don't agree two leg though. Straight knockout 1 game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:16:33 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:17:46 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
What does two legs achieve though?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blue Island on June 26, 2017, 05:28:17 PM
This old argument comes up every year and I think it is media driven. This is a matter solely for those Counties who are struggling and for no one else. I would imagine they would have no truck with some form of B or C tier competition. There would be zero interest and one only has to look at the second tier hurling competitions to see how that would end up.

Even if Croke Park did throw a load of money and resources at it (unlikely), they can't force RTE, the print media to follow suit and give the games the attention they might deserve.

The real issue is the amateur ethos of our games and the primary rule that you play for the County you were born in. If we had a professional game where you could transfer between Counties, it might be reasonable to have a two, or three tier system, where better/more ambitious players could transfer.  Not that I am advocating that.

It is not justified to say to players in Leitrim or Antrim, you are now playing in a secondary competition by dint of your birth and you will suck it up.

I would draw a comparison with nations qualifying for the Euros and the World cup. Yes, the tournament itself is for qualifiers only, akin to the All Ireland quarter finals, but every nation starts with the same chance.  France will play San Marino etc, because there is an acceptance that every nation is sovereign and treated with equal status and an acknowledgement that players can only play for the Country they were born it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:12:32 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 26, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
If you favour a second tier, you'd have to have Down in it. Longford beat them in the qualifiers this weekend last year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 06:30:58 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
They're not dead rubbers. Dead rubbers, as I understand them, are games that don't matter for whatever reason. If the first leg is a 20 point victory then I think you could call the second leg a dead rubber. Multiply that by about four or five ties (likely).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 06:32:07 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.

Well, Carlow could draw Leitrim then Antrim and get to a QF. Mayo could face Dublin, winners meeting Kerry. So you could have Carlow in a QF, with Dublin and Kerry gone.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:35:59 PM
I could win the lotto.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Stall the Bailer on June 26, 2017, 11:32:15 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 11:38:19 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Previous new winners Derry 93, Donegal 92, Offaly 71,Down 61. Meath 49.
Not much sign of any new County making a breakthrough in the next 5 or 6 years at least.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:32:38 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:02:14 AM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:04:59 AM
A second tier would give the GAA an excuse to hide away the useless teams just like they hide them away during the league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 27, 2017, 05:58:41 AM
After I investigated the Kerry Senior Championship Ive become a great fan, I genuinally think its the reason that they are so sucessful as players from small clubs have a chance to play on an equal footing with the big clubs and it also means the standard of the championship is higher

Anyway could we apply this model to the SFC??

I was thinkin  have the 2nd Tier championship minus the top 8 or 10 and replace the lower leagues with that championship. Obiviously it would still be some sorta league format as losing R1 teams end up with 1 game
Then have the provincials as usual.
Then pool the 2nd Tier teams into regional sides to give them a crack at the SFC agin the top teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on June 27, 2017, 06:46:24 AM
I've a real bee in my bonnet when it comes to people saying things like how "it would need to be marketed properly..."

All across Ireland and the world there are sports that don't get bums on seats, and they all perceive that a lack of marketing is the issue. League of Ireland? Check. Ladies football? Check. Christy Ring? Check.

It's all very well to say that two days ago, there was a gap there, and that RTE could have showed a lower tier game. But what about the previous week? Would the armchair pundits, up to and including a lot of people on here, been happy that either Donegal vs Tyrone or Cork vs Waterford went untelevised so that a game like the Christy Ring final could be shown instead?

Christ the same Joe Brolly thinks it's a disgrace that there are GAA games on Sky, even though there's 40-odd games on terrestrial TV over the summer now. But think about it. Is it a real surprise that TV pundits, who depend on TV punditry for gigs, want a system where there are more big games between the big counties, so more games that "need" to be televised, and thus more punditry gigs on the go?


Moreover, you don't have to go far in Kerry or Dublin to find an ex-player who thinks a B championship is the answer. However I'll start to believe that it's the way to go when a player who would be playing in it comes out and says that he'd have an extra spring in his step if they went that road. If a lad I know to be a solid, committed player who loves his county - I'll give the example of Brian Darby for Offaly, who some of ye will know from TG4's seo spůirt - if he comes out and says that he'd prefer to represent Offaly in a competition like that, I'll listen. If some ould lads from Kerry tell him that's where he should be locked away into, that's not going to twist my arm. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 27, 2017, 08:09:41 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Better still...
Dublin NE - Ulster
Dublin NW - Connacht
Dublin SW - Munster
Dublin SE - Leinster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 08:18:21 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs.
Roscommon 2-23 Leitrim 1-9.

How many Qualifier games have Leitrim won?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 27, 2017, 11:14:50 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.

Part of the issue is that the Dubs continue to have home advantage.  they weren't just as hot when taken out of Dublin to play Carlow.  Surely Westmeath deserved an opportunity to play Dublin in the semi final in a major ground in Leinster but not Croke Park that should be reserved for provincial finals and AI quarter finals onwards?

In a smaller stadium with the home crowd closer to the play, it would at least create some levelling for other Leinster teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be.  Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:20:01 PM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?

Yeah that'd be the same Dublin who are back to back ai champions having won 4 of the last 6 all Irelands and who've won 12 of the last 13 leinsters, currently on 7 in a row. Take the blinkers off lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 12:27:53 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 27, 2017, 12:35:06 PM
I'd like to know what the counties who tend to occupy division 4 county boards think.  Do the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Antrim, Waterford & Wicklow want the extra games?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 27, 2017, 12:59:49 PM
I think what we all learned from RTE's interview with 10 managers shown on Sunday night was that non of them want to be viewed as second rate teams and want to be in with a chance of playing against the big boys at some stage.

However, I think most of us (even the Dubs) enjoy the season when we get a decent run of games where we win a few and have excitement, hope, joy, fear, incident and out for a few jars and a meal to discuss the day. Many of us know we're not gonna win Sam but we can still enjoy the summer and that happens mainly when we play teams around the same level as us.
Whilst it's nice to win your province, I love the idea of going to an away venue for a Sat night game and staying the night and meeting up with old friends etc.

The loyalty to the provincials is a huge stumbling block for most people as they feel they are breaking tradition if they walk away from that set up.

The most simpliest solutuon would seem to be that the top 2 divisions play off against each other and the bottom 2 divisions do the same. It would mean teams from lower divisions still have a chance to get to the 1/4 finals (super 8s) whilst playing competive games with teams at similar levels. As we saw at the weekend Carlow v London was a good game as were a few others qualifiers.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 01:19:33 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 01:23:03 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:34:04 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?

Yes, if we meet in the Super 8 I'd expect Dublin to be asked to play us in Castlebar. Fat chance of that happening! It would be horsed up to Croker to keep the Corporate Boxes full and the Big wigs happy. Same would happen with your idea of playing in Connacht. The final would end up in Croker!  Do you get the general idea of how it works now!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 27, 2017, 01:35:01 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.

Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4

Don't draw a totally arbitrary line to begin with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 27, 2017, 01:54:30 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: vallankumous on June 27, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 02:49:42 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 03:34:55 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.

Absolutely brilliant idea. The top tier competition would end up being called the All Ireland AIG Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 02:14:33 PM
From 2010 to this year (including the games played this year) Division 4 teams have played 155 games in the championship and only beaten non-Division 4 opposition 15 times.

The breakdown of those 15 wins

Division 3 - 10 wins

Division 2 - 4 wins

Division 1 - 1 win
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 02:41:58 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 28, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.

But more people in this poll voted no to separate championships (or did I misunderstand the question?).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 28, 2017, 03:01:17 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.
Above 17 won 9 Provincial SFCs out of 100 played in the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 05:37:56 PM
Twas 10 actually, not 9.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 06:16:01 PM
If you take out the counties that are in div 1 or 2 (Roscommon, Cavan and Monaghan ) how many provincials are you left with???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 07:36:50 PM
Leitrim 1
Sligo 1
Laois 1
Westmeath 1
Clare 1
Offaly 1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 28, 2017, 08:22:51 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
The decline of pubs and the growth of drinking at home are also Sean Boylan's fault
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 28, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 28, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.

Remarkable that we now have such influence in a competition we don't participate in
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 09:09:00 PM
The numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 10:34:07 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

I don't think GAA ticket prices have gone up that much, compared to other sports (rugby, LOI) or other entertainment - cinema and concerts.
This is only my own feeling though.
Anyone have any data?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 29, 2017, 10:11:52 AM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 29, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Yeah that's a straight comparison between 2001 and 2016 but the thing is the attendances have been steadily trending downward year-on-year, all while the population has been booming.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 29, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Which means it is not favoured by just over half who expressed a preference.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 29, 2017, 02:59:26 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster

When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: SCFC on June 29, 2017, 08:45:39 PM
I think it has to be done before long.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Scarlet on June 29, 2017, 10:27:49 PM
There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level.

I am playing in my head the scenes at the county board meetings with that being discussed up and down the country. Anyone here who has ever been to one close their eyes and you can imagine the people going red in the face talking about this.
As I said no county will agree to it no matter what the facts will say.
I for one voted undecided as I honestly don't know until there is more definite parameters. I think dumping all Div 3 and 4 teams down is the cleanest method and would mean the league would be given even more attention but is a nuclear option vefore we even really go for more restructuring within the current system.

If things stay as they are then the suits in Croke Park will be blamed but the grassroots are the ones who will shout loudest against an A and B option.
As I say there is no real logic to it. You have lads from Junior clubs who are playing county and they look around their dressing room back home and accept that is their level. In their hearts they must look around the county dressing room and realise that coming up against certain teams they just are not able to compete.
But for the club it is OK and if they won a county junior title it would be a source of pride. But trying to bring that into intercounty seems to be just a case of not swallowing pride.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 29, 2017, 11:21:33 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 29, 2017, 11:59:34 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....

Dust off the trophy cabinet lads, Tommy Murphy Mark II is on the way!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on June 30, 2017, 12:07:10 AM
Everybody's done very well, really.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 12:18:39 AM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 01:00:22 AM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?

The one with enough diesel.

Too many here trying to reducing this to a cute little one line methapor. It will never fit.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:23:04 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 09:31:54 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
But is that dissimilar to other sports?
Premier Leauge - 25 odd years and six winners. Two of whom have won it once each.
Scottish Premier League - Two winners in about 30 years
Spanish League - Three winners - Four winners in 17 years, with Atletico winning it once and Valenica twice, the last of which is 13 years ago.

I know I've only quoted soccer, as it's all I otherwise follow, but I think you know that there's more to entering than winning.

Horses with no chance of winning the Grand National enter every year. At every Olympics you see athletes and swimmers finishing double digit seconds behind the winners of the heats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 09:46:58 AM
We need a competition that everybody wins in turn. Or maybe everybody could get a wee cup and some medals every year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:48:13 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:37:58 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
The supporters of these teams keep attending the games though and I don't think the type of Olympians I mentioned climb much of a ladder.

My point is that there is more to sport that winning and I think that, regardless of your view on this topic, that it's very clear that this is the case in the inter-county scene.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 10:54:19 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:57:02 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
But you seem to be ignoring the point I'm making.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:20:59 AM
A 32 team professional sport = NFL.

Last 20 years.

Packers
Broncos
Rams
Ravens
Patriots
Buccaneers
Steelers
Colts
Giants
Saints
Seahawks

And beaten finalists
Falcons
Titans
Raiders
Panthers
Eagles
Bears
Cardinals
49ers

So out of 32 teams, in the last 20 years there have been 19 different teams in the Superbowl. Obviously some powerhouses like the Patriots appear more than once, but nonetheless that's quite a competitive spread.

Of course the NFL is professional, and thus has movement of players which we do not want. However they have twigged that they need to enforce financial constraints (salary cap) and player welfare considerations thrashed out in the CBA to minimise length of season, off season training etc.

They do a lot wrong in the NFL, but they realise that allowing the big teams free rein in terms of financial power leads to lopsided competition structures, so they've tried to reduce that.

Interestingly, you could say they have a two phased Championship. Everyone plays 16 games, and then the top 6 in both provinces, I mean conferences, play a straight knockout playoffs for the Superbowl.

We can't lift and shift the NFL structure onto Gaelic football, but we can consider their approach to shared revenue and salary caps in a bid to level the playing field. This from the most capitalistic sport in the most capitalistic country in the world.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 11:26:08 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.

Is it the case that lesser numbers are going to matches now because supporters think they have no chance of winning?
I wouldn't agree with that.
Ourselves and Leitrim had no chance of winning an all ireland in 2009/10/11 either so the fall off in attendance is not due to us and Leitrim all of a sudden becoming uncompetitive (in fact, you could argue that we are more competitive now because we are in div 1/2 of the league vs Divs 3/4 in those years).

I'm not convinced that putting us and Leitrim in an inter/junior comp will automatically result in crowds increasing.

Is it possible to get league attendance figures from the last few years? An interesting test would be to check attendances at games between the same teams in different divisions of the league. For example, Ros V Cavan in Div1, Div2 and Div3. or Ros V Mon in Div1 against Div 3 a few years ago. I know there are other factors at play (e.g. different venues etc.) but I would guess that attendances were higher when teams meet in Div 1 rather than the lower division even though the teams would have better chances of winning the lower division. I could be proved wrong, but it'd be interesting to see the stats.
Other teams off the top of my head that would have meet in different divisions, RosVDown, TyroneVCavan, CorkVDown, WestmeathVKildare
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 30, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
No, that the main stakeholders, i.e. players, management, spectators, don't necessarily see the ability to win Sam as the main factor for remaining in the race to win it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:37:23 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA

NCAA is not. It's the most lopsided of all even though it is amateur. Granted some TV rights and the like are shared between conferences, but there's nothing to stop big colleges paying massive coaching salaries, or in the biggest schools recruiting the best players because they have the best facilities or the big name.

MLB doesn't have a salary cap I believe, and therefore you have massive wage bills and free agent signings. When the Yankees are involved, they usually get who they want, or at least they did up until about 5 years ago. They have introduced a luxury tax alright, which penalises those high salaries, but it's not stopping them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 12:28:21 PM
Should more counties go down the "Jack Charlton route"?

Maybe all minor and U21 teams from Dublin, Cork, Kerry, (etc?) ... should be made list where their parents are from, e.g:

Sean Og O hAilpin - mother from Fiji, father from Fermanagh

So if he hadn't made the breakthrough into the Cork senior team, Fermanagh (or Fiji!) could have tried to persuade him to play with them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Estimator on June 30, 2017, 12:31:14 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

There was only 5 different winners in those years (sharing 22 titles)
Kerry 10 titles
Dublin 4 titles
Offaly 3 titles
Cork 3 titles
Meath 2 titles

And a number of those finals were non-events as it was so one-sided.

I'm sure teams still want the opportunity to play for the top prize, it doesn't matter it they are rank outsiders, they still want the chance to take on a big team, a chance of Provincial/ All Ireland glory etc.

A local club example would be Glenullin, they were relegated from the top division in 2015, which meant that they would play in the Intermediate C'ship in 2016 (League and C'ship is linked in Derry).  Instead they applied to play in the Senior C'ship, which was granted to them.  This meant a rejig of the draw and a Premlim fixture had to be played. Glenullin were beaten by 6pts by Loup in the first round.

Glenullin, won the Intermediate league at a canter.  They probably would have won the Intermediate C'ship easily, and could possibly have won Ulster and All-Ireland titles.  But they wanted the opportunity to play in the Senior Championship.  They would probably make the same decision again if it happened.

The promises of similar coverage, and big days in Croke Park for Intermediate and Junior teams playing in the Paidi Cup, or whatever they would be called, are ridiculous. Look at the coverage the finals of the Ring, Rackard, Meagher had this year.  The finals were held on a random Saturday in June. It was only being streamed on the TG4 website.  Its not something that you accidentally find when you are scrolling through the channels.  You had to know where to go to find the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier hurling finals.  Exactly the same thing would happen in the football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 02:11:20 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
[/b]
No idea and no idea why you're asking me in response to my point.

It might be that if a tiered championship was introduced that it would be the best thing that the GAA ever did. However, as it stands, there will be huge resistance to it for many reasons. Not agreeing with the logic doesn't mean they don't exist regardless of what you try to compare it to.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.

Aka Tommy Murph lite.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 03:25:28 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2017, 03:25:46 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
87 also had a draw between Cork and Galway
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 01, 2017, 05:11:08 AM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 01, 2017, 09:12:56 AM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Hardly. Nobody said the Ulster boys did anything. The point, right or wrong, was that the weaker hurling counties had gotten weaker.

Rossfan is not at his usual best on this thread, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 01, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

There was fŻck all chance of Leitrim giving us a game and us Connacht champions in 2011.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2017, 10:26:32 AM
I would support  a second tier featuring Dublin and Kerry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:27:36 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:34:04 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:52:30 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.
If it was a proper competition with decent rewards then yes absolutely. Hurlers don't have a problem playing in the Nicky rackard and Christy ring competitions. Teams of similar standards playing against each other with promotion and relegation based on performance. A lot of sports have been using this simple basis for their competitions for centuries!!!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on July 01, 2017, 08:03:23 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.

More to cup competitions than just winning them. Upsets like Down last week or competitive performance from the underdogs like Derry,Longford  today draws plenty of interest. Down,Kildare,Roscommon,Cork all underdogs in the upcoming provinal finals would all take a provincial title over some 2nd tier Championship title.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on July 01, 2017, 08:09:24 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 01, 2017, 08:20:02 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)

We have that Already it's called Hurling!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: ONeill on July 01, 2017, 08:27:11 PM
The weird thing is that a lot of the two-tiered county vocalists are supposedly avid club men.

If that's the case, who gives a fook how many tiers there are at county level. The sooner your club men are out the better.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on July 03, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.

It wasn't always that way.
The finals used to be played before the AI semi-finals in August then we'd "hurling" men in Nicky Brennan and Christy Cooney coming in and changing it so that the minors were back in before those games.

Can't argue with your last point though although Westmeath, Carlow and Laois would be a bit yoyo from CR to AI series.

Ulster hurling is on its uppers and is poorly served by the Ulster Football Council.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 13, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 03:27:59 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.

You're actively turning people against the idea of a second tier with stuff like that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:44:25 PM
How exactly?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 03:50:10 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
He's not wrong as I assume nobody suggested to him anything about being able to re-enter the AI series.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 13, 2017, 04:13:30 PM
First of all we would need to know how many teams are in the second tier? 16, 12, 8? Secondly how would we rank them? Would it be based solely on league rankings every year? Would it create more emphasis on the league? Or should I say would year 1 be based on league rankings and the rest as up down relegation/promotion in the new championship format itself?

I have another question, why just because you won the second tier championship should you automatically be re-entered into the top tier 'last whatever number' as FtB says? Should that not be for the top tier counties only? People cite the junior, intermediate and senior model, but I have never known an intermediate winner to automatically be guaranteed a senior quarter final place?

I'm not trying to be awkward, just stating some questions that I'm sure individual county boards might ask if they were asked to vote on it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 13, 2017, 04:16:53 PM
With all this talk of re-entry, can someone give an example of a county where the Intermediate champions are then allowed in the Senior championship semi finals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 04:37:48 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 04:38:02 PM
I totally favour the 3 tier Senior Inter Junior model as per Club Championships.
However I doubt I'll live to see it so we're talking what might pass Congress and what would the weak/ Hurling Counties go for.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 13, 2017, 05:06:05 PM
I think first the calender should be sorted out for clubs and county A compact season for both) , all counties get at least say four championship games at a minimum along with 7 league games and some sort of central pot for coaching and development is organised with the weakest teams being funded from this the most per head of population (ala draft position in American Football) , trial this for a decade , then if intercounty is as divided as it is now then go for a tiered championship!!

I just think not much really has been tried to even the playing field at all apart from the qualifiers but if weaker counties got a genuine chance to develop I think they could have success but we are always going to have bad counties and one sided games no matter what system is in place!! More games less training and a proper calender will give counties with a good plan a chance for succes in my opinion!!

( see I am asking for feck all change really ;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 05:34:33 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 06:35:28 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??

You don't need to be a top four team to be a vibrant part of the championship..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:40:18 PM
What's a "vibrant part of the Championship"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:48:14 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
What about  Hurling League Champions, Football League Semi finalists ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:49:00 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
They would have to stop sending top players to Meath as well
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LCohen on July 13, 2017, 07:12:31 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.

There are 3 options for a tiered championship.

Straight forward tiered system where everyone starts and ends the champions in tier 1 or 2. Promotion for the winners and some sort fight in the colosseum to identify who replaces them.

A champions league style group that determines your position in the tiered knock out competitions. Tiered competitions running in parallel.

Lower tier played out first with entry into the upper tier for the winner.

Option 3 is a scheduling nightmare.

No doubt serious drug testing with serious consequences for cheating is a must.

A serious look at funding is also required
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 03:05:26 AM
A lot of counties can go a long time without shooting the lights out  and doing a good run in the qualifiers  a la Carlow this year.  Football has a structural problem in that Sam tends to be shared amongst a small group of counties unless something special  comes out of Ulster.

While there have been decent provincial and qualifier runs over recent years by teams such as Tipp, Clare, Sligo, London, Antrim, Longford, Fermanagh and Meath, it has usually been against enormous odds and hard to replicate. And for every D3/D4 team that does it there are at least 10 that are out of contention by mid June. Would a 2 Tier system lift the overall standard and make an all Ireland by an untouchable county more likely? Maybe it would, if combined with financial reform. Would the counties support such a proposal that might shake up the system? No. Counties and players love their chains. They are still loyal to that  one in 40 year thing. To win just once 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on July 14, 2017, 11:50:42 AM
Have you been drinking?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 12:00:21 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
I like the inept category
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 01:22:23 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?

;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 01:38:32 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seŗnie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 14, 2017, 02:11:41 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seŗnie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????


I think Ross the Gaa should instigate an independent review of these counties and major urban areas (especially since they have a sucessful urban area in Dublin to go off) and put it to these counties to come up with a viable plan to improve. Money should only be committed on the basis of a workable long term plan i.e not just building a big concrete stand or hiring a big name manager!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 02:44:15 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seŗnie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
They all have soccer cultures

I think Wicklow should be colonised by motivated club players from the west coast . The local Irish in places like Baltinglass could function as backup
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 02:46:47 PM
Agreed but would they need a Croke Park full time official to wore with them in devising the right plan and overseeong/driving it.
The point I was making in my light hearted categories piece (lost on some I'd think) is that the AI SFC is the preserve of the few, that population, hurling, 6 Cos demographics and ineptiness rules out up to 20 Counties from future competing seriously for Sam.
So do we 20 odd keep hoping we might draw a few weak teams like Carlow did, get the odd oul Provincial or get to the Quarters via the Qualifier now and then or pray that a load of Kerry men will marry in and breed better players?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 04:02:38 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want.
To date, I think they have listened. They've acknowledge that there is an appetite to retain the provincials and that there's not an appetite to bring in a tiered-championship among inter-county players.

Supporters may be split on this but the campaign is mostly coming from elements of the media. The GAA get a lost of abuse for the decisions they make but we can only hope that they don't let such campaigns guide them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:18:45 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

And you who won't be that bothered if Roscommon are placed into Intermediate/B section competition!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?


 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 04:47:32 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

I'm still laughing at the idea best Connacht final victory in at least 37 years makes the year a 5/10. I'll get back to you when I stop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 14, 2017, 05:43:22 PM
i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

With all the negativity, more people have voted for a two tier competition than have voted against it.  Granted a small sample but the suggestion is obviously favored by quite a few followers on this board.  I would only be in favor if the prize was re-entry to the championship at the latter stages
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 11:04:19 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Absolutely. But as it stands, it seems that the players agree.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 12:22:26 AM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,Ē Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!

Sure what would he know about it.

So he goes into a last 12 or last 8. So lets say 16 in top tier, 16 in bottom. How do we go about this craic where the winner of bottom tier all of a sudden landing into the last 12 of the top tier. This means the bottom tier will have to be wrapped up before the top tier even attempts to take of properly.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 01:24:12 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 05:47:54 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
I don't know if you understand how money works
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 09:59:44 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

Ok you have me totally lost. Why would English and French teams be in a competition for teams from Ireland, Scotland Wales and Italy. Does this make the English Premiership or French Super 12 also B competitions. Where does it stop. Are you suggesting in Soccer the  Premiership or La Liga are B competitions because they don't have all the top sides from Europe.

If you're looking at it like that then we already have B championships. The Connacht or Ulster Championship doesn't involve Kerry or Dublin.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 11:09:52 AM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 15, 2017, 01:25:44 PM
Play the provincials and Sam in the winter, league in the summer.  Everyone enters Sam; provincials with local rivalries remain.  Everyone knows how long their summer season is, and more games between teams of similar levels in summer.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 15, 2017, 02:42:00 PM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Four? What teams start out in the first week of February?

And think of the benefits to the club scene in those counties having the whole summer to play games. Please some of the people and all that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 03:00:51 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 03:32:39 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?

Do you think that's going to stop college lads going on J1s? Daft buck.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2017, 04:41:10 PM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on July 16, 2017, 09:30:19 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 16, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.

No they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 12:22:05 PM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Fair funding and support for high standard coaching would be required for that. The qualifiers are pretty useless in terms of developing weaker counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 16, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
The super 8 will create a second tier so there is no need to worry about it. It's already here in another guise. There is now a first tier and the rest can just go whistle. Sky are happy, Dublin football will be happy, the coffers in headquarters in Croker will be happy.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 18, 2017, 10:51:36 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 18, 2017, 11:09:34 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.

Carlow got that far by beating teams of their own standard. If teams get 4/5 games every summer it would lead to increased interest and improvements in standards. The "B" championship was poorly organised and treated as a joke by croke park. This insistence on calling it a potential "B" championship doesn't help. If a new trophy was commissioned and called Kevin Heffernan cup for example, finals played in croke park together with All Ireland semi final and earlier rounds televised and marketed I think it would be a success
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 12:52:20 AM
Sadly that just won't happen. It'll end up like the hurling Christy Ring...1st year out it was live on before an AI semi final...then it fell away and ended up 1 year played on a saturday night in tullamore, with 3 mins highlights on Sunday game.
Different levels are needed in hurling, as the gaps in standard all along the way are massive. So that is necessary but needs to be worked on.

In Football it's not the same at all, there's the top 3/4 after that then maybe another few that might compete with them on a good day. But we have proven that even one of the worst teams in Div 4 can be level with Monaghan with 5 mins to go, and we held Dublin to 4 points with 20 mins to go, until we lost our best player to a red card. This year we have proved that any team with a decent structure and intelligent gameplan plus obviously a good committed group of players can compete with even the best.
They are already planning to give it a go again next year, hoping to avoid Dublin in the draw and looking at potential Leinster final.

A B championship in any name will always be a lesser tournament and players won't commit, fans won't go. Nobody will care, no matter what it's called. I'd rather have an occasion like we had on Saturday ahead of winning any made up stupid Kevin Heffernan Cup by beating Leitrim or someone in the final in front of about 100 people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 19, 2017, 02:02:32 AM
The Carlow manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 03:00:01 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.

In what way? I'd try to explain all that he has done to improve Carlow, but trying to get yourself to try and talk sense is probably hard to do when you can't even spell Carlow at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2017, 03:02:02 AM
I think Turlough O Brien is very impressive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on July 19, 2017, 10:02:00 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Carew is surely a bluff machine. At least O'Brien has given Carlow supporters something to remember, Carew gave us national humiliation and stagnation otherwise. And self-serving guff in the Champion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 10, 2017, 01:01:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....

Sure that's bollox. If you're taking the quarter finals as proof that we need tiered championships, Tier one would basically be the 4 semi finalists. I made this point months ago when this was raised. If we are trying to avoid heavy beatings, then the only solution is to separate the top 3 or 4 teams in Tier one, and you could have 5 or 6 tiers by the time you finished.

A tiered championship is mostly championed by media as far as I can see, and it's to avoid covering Carlow and the likes as they have the temerity to take a weekend in the summer away from the big guns facing each other. The problem, the real problem, is that the big guns are separating from the pack, in a very small and exclusive bunch, and no amount of restructuring fixtures will change that.

The Super 8s will go some way towards giving the media what they want, as you will theoretically have the top 8 playing each other in 12 matches. However, if the formline from last weekend held, and you had 2 or 3 blowouts in each group, and a dead rubber or two, you'll see support for that fading away as well.

Helping, and enabling, all counties to make the most of their resources, without quite deliberately making it harder for them to improve by disproportionate financial support to other counties, is the best way of improving standards, and competitiveness. Making monsters, and then wondering why they are eating everyone, is daft.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 10, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
Beautifully put AZ.

Was Fitzsimons thinking this after the Mayo v Roscommon draw but decided to hold on to get a full hand of hammerings.

If he's thinking it for a year and a half why didn't he say it when Tipp reached the SF last year.

More of the same from a different mouth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 10, 2017, 02:46:11 PM
Two 16 team championships. Straight knock out. No back door.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (senior) play off. Bottom 4 drop to the second tier the next year.
4 Semi-finalists in the second tier move up to Senior the following year.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (2nd tier) play off for a 3rd tier trophy if there is a need to ensure everyone gets a minimum of 2 games.

No seeding, no links to the league. Win 2 games and you play with the big boys the following year. Lose 2 and you go back down.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 10, 2017, 03:24:48 PM
No Provincials?
No point to second tier Semis and Final
How do you decide top 16?
What's in it for Leitrim?
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx.
Home and away or Neutral venues?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 05:56:26 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 11, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
No Provincials? Correct, they are part of the current imbalance.
No point to second tier Semis and Final. When you have played and won two why not go on try to win 2 more to get some silverware, even if it is only an intermediate championship?
How do you decide top 16? League for the first initial line in the san. Then purely previous championship performance.
What's in it for Leitrim? About as much as they get now. There is a chance that once every 60 years they might make an all-Ireland intermediate final.
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx. More time for club football.
Home and away or Neutral venues? Neutral after the first round.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 11, 2017, 03:46:49 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 12, 2017, 07:39:02 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.

Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 12, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 12, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 12, 2017, 11:37:07 PM
So why aren't all clubs playing in just a single County Championship?
Why can't Ballinameen players pit themselves against St.Brigids??
Can you imagine the poor Donegal or Leitrim hurlers pitting themselves against Galway, Cork or Waterford?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 12, 2017, 11:40:15 PM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on August 13, 2017, 12:17:18 AM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.

True! and the only way out is to win it!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 12:40:03 AM
Senior Inter and Junior All Irelands.
Provincials open to all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 13, 2017, 01:31:31 AM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 13, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final

Don't get the point of the second one. It just makes it easier for division 1 teams to get to a semi final. That's not what's needed.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 11:47:10 AM
Division 1 teams usually make up the Semi Finalists anyway.
Tipp were the exception last year but they did beat 2 "big" teams to get there - Cork and the Connacht Champions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on August 13, 2017, 01:54:00 PM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/ (http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/)

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/)

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   

In addition, it's the players who don't want to be second tier. Nobody is surprised that (especially blow-in) managers want to compete in a competition in which they have a chance of success and consequently a better prospect of keeping their jobs appointments and expenses.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on August 13, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
Do the fans want a continuation of the status quo?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 02:50:20 PM
The players want to compete at club level and they have tiered leagues and Championships. They can do the same at county level and get used to it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 13, 2017, 05:08:05 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
No. The reason that hurling counties are tiered is that so few counties entered the All Ireland Senior Championship before the tiering was introduced. Antrim in Ulster and Galway in Connacht were the only representatives of their provinces. In Leinster, Louth & Longford never took part and Westmeath and Carlow were occasionally there. That gave you 16 counties that were delighted to get an alternative  competition.
In football , only Kilkenny have been absentees. My point was that change will only come if the counties affected at the bottom level vote for it and at the moment it doesn't appear that they will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 11:13:06 PM
Counties in the bottom levels will not vote for tiers because it would add to the pressure to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 14, 2017, 11:01:20 AM
I'm curious to know if there were calls for a tiered championship in the 50s and 60s. We're Carlow, Wicklow, Fermanagh et al at a similar standard of all the teams?  Was every game close?  Or what about when Kerry hammered Clare in Miltown Malbay? Was everyone clamouring for a tiered championship then? Is it just to make weak counties to feel good about themselves that this has come about, or the fact all these hidings are televised?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 14, 2017, 11:09:33 AM


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.
Well put. The has v the has nots. Just look at one of the recent comments. Just bring it in and those that doesn't want it can "get used to it"  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 16, 2017, 11:45:59 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 17, 2017, 12:09:18 AM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on August 17, 2017, 12:42:53 AM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way When Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)

And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Dublin have not had to play a single competive game of football to reach this AISF, by the way.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on August 17, 2017, 04:22:39 PM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 17, 2017, 04:28:20 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
How do you know who the "NOTS" are? How many is most? 51% of them?

If Sligo won Connacht by beating Galway and Mayo, do most of the NOTS think that to be easier or harder than Dublin beating Carlow, Wicklow and Wexfod?

Most importantly, what do the minority of NOTS think?


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on August 17, 2017, 10:34:26 PM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
It was 2001 when Connacht had all four league semi finalists. The Championship had Mayo edging us out in Castlebar by a point courtesy of Tom Nallen and his 26 steps goal, Galway were then turfed out by Ros in Tuam before the Rossies beat Mayo in the final with a last gasp goal. That general era from the late 90's through to 2003/4 was a great one for Connacht in the sense of having four quite competitive, if not perhaps very consistent, teams and all operating at the higher echelons, ourselves and Ros were in D1 for most of that time, Mayo had their near misses for the big one and won their only national title since 1970 in that time, and Galway of course carried home Sam twice and but for Savage being selfish late on v Kerry in 2000 might have had a third title too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 18, 2017, 12:37:35 PM
Good time indeed owenmoresider.  However, with the exception of Galway, no Connacht team has won an all-ireland since 1951 which is 66 years.
Maybe we should allow mayo into the second tier also.....

Interesting to see that there are more votes in favour than against.  I stress again that the winners and runners-up would re-enter the championship under my suggestion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 01:18:09 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Such as?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 01:34:01 PM
3 Tiered All Irelands senior Junior and Inter with promotion and relegation.
Keep the Provincials with all Countues taking part with some perks for the winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldnít even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. Itís the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 02:42:30 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldnít even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. Itís the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.
Upsets in May/June don't count
The Qualifiers restore the natural order- look at Longford and Carlow
An upset in July/August  would be something
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldnít even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. Itís the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:23:08 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldnít even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. Itís the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 03:40:31 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldnít even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. Itís the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???

You said

Quote
There have been so many upsets this year

But the only example you can provide is one game in Leinster

The only other one that springs to mind is Fermanagh V Monaghan, but in a two tier championship based on next years league positions, they both would be top 16  teams
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:41:12 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldnít even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. Itís the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???

You said

Quote
There have been so many upsets this year

But the only example you can provide is one game in Leinster

The only other one that springs to mind is Fermanagh V Monaghan, but in a two tier championship based on next years league positions, they both would be top 16  teams

Wow.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 03:45:28 PM
Great argument.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 03:53:59 PM
On Sunday, one of Horan's predecessors Sean Kelly aired his desire to address the huge imbalance within the provinces in the wake of final cakewalks for Kerry and Dublin against Cork and Laois respectively.
"Cause for serious worry about the hammerings too many @officialgaa football teams are getting at all inter-county championship levels," Kelly tweeted.
"Grading according to ability, with more than one tier essential.
"Otherwise there will be serious fall off in participation and attendances. Urgent!"
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:13:35 PM
3 of the provincial finals were between teams would would all be in the top 16 in a tiered championship (Based on current year league finishing positions). Yet 2 of those finals ended in very one sided results (munster & Ulster).

How will a tiered championship stop those hidings?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 04:26:43 PM
3 of the provincial finals were between teams would would all be in the top 16 in a tiered championship (Based on current year league finishing positions). Yet 2 of those finals ended in very one sided results (munster & Ulster).

How will a tiered championship stop those hidings?

I wont eliminate all one sided games, you will always get them occasionally no matter what.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Bord na Mona man on June 25, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.
Top tier of 6.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:36:56 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.

would Kerry Cork not be in the same tier?

My argument is we should be trying to improve the counties who are falling behind. Not putting a system in place where the likely outcome is that the gap between top and bottom will bigger.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 05:01:18 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties

I'm not sure Ross fan, but if people tierred championships to avoid teams getting hammered, it's not going to work.

I can understand the argument that the provincials are unfair, but that's a different argument to the one about setting up tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 25, 2018, 05:02:02 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.

would Kerry Cork not be in the same tier?

My argument is we should be trying to improve the counties who are falling behind. Not putting a system in place where the likely outcome is that the gap between top and bottom will bigger.

How do you improve Leitrim or Fermanagh? Honest question. Coaches? Transfer players? Money?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 05:09:54 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties
I don't think the hurling counties are the issue. Limerick, Waterford, Wexford don't really care
Galway and Cork are dual and have always had ups and downs
Tipp know thy have work to do

The system doesn't work for Laois and Clare
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on September 19, 2018, 12:45:25 PM
http://www.the42.ie/all-ireland-football-two-tier-championship-john-horan-4242334-Sep2018/

Looks like this idea might be making a comeback.  If they don't change the rules to increase the enjoyment factor for players and spectators it won't make a difference as people won't go to watch the crap that football has become especially if it's for a second tier competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 12:58:45 PM
Few neutrals go to games any more anyways so it will only be followers of the 2 Counties playing  anyway.
Putting a tiered 2 Final along with the Senior Final will mean that only a small number of people from the 2 Counties will be able to attend.
Not much fun for Leitrim or Carlow etc - Wonderful to get to the All Ireland Final but only 2,500 ofor them can see it.
For utm_source to have any hope as a stand alone competition it will need to be officially called "All Ireland Senior B or 2 Football Championship" and be held early enough to allow the winners into the last 12 of the main Championship.
Calling it officially the Dermot Earley/PŠidi  O Sť or whoever Cup will nearly guarantee it will be a flop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on September 19, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Few neutrals go to games any more anyways so it will only be followers of the 2 Counties playing  anyway.
Putting a tiered 2 Final along with the Senior Final will mean that only a small number of people from the 2 Counties will be able to attend.
Not much fun for Leitrim or Carlow etc - Wonderful to get to the All Ireland Final but only 2,500 ofor them can see it.
For utm_source to have any hope as a stand alone competition it will need to be officially called "All Ireland Senior B or 2 Football Championship" and be held early enough to allow the winners into the last 12 of the main Championship.
Calling it officially the Dermot Earley/PŠidi  O Sť or whoever Cup will nearly guarantee it will be a flop.

Tiering works for Camogie and ladies football as the finals are all played on the same showcase day.

I don't think that may be workable for hurling or Football AI finals, but I do think a second tier final could be before an AI semi-final.

Those that removed the CR and Nicy Rackard finals from the AI semi-final spots did hurling in weaker counties a huge disservice and should be ashamed of themselves. Hurling men my arse.

If the same was allowed to happen in a tiered football championship then Horan and Co need their holes booted the length and breadth of the country.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: snoopdog on September 19, 2018, 02:59:44 PM
Down are div 3 next year. So on that basis we would be in a 2nd tier comp. Personally id rather not compete at all. The GAA will run this like the dead rubber 2nd 3rd and 4th string hurling comps that no one attends.
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 03:05:24 PM
Nobody ever attended hurling games played by the Louths,  Longfords or Cavans of this world.
I recall a Ros V London Hurling Championship game which took place after we played Cork in football back in 2003.
69 spectators stayed back to watch it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on September 19, 2018, 03:08:01 PM
Down are div 3 next year. So on that basis we would be in a 2nd tier comp. Personally id rather not compete at all. The GAA will run this like the dead rubber 2nd 3rd and 4th string hurling comps that no one attends.
2013 Monaghan were in Div 3 and this summer they managed to reached the last 4 and were inches away from reaching the AI final. Would they have made that type of progress if they played in a 2nd tier comp? i highly doubt it.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 03:19:44 PM
They won Ulster in 2013 didn't they so they'd have been in Tier 1 anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on September 19, 2018, 03:25:02 PM
How does the second tier resolve the shite that is the Leinster Championship?

The second-tier will just do away with mismatches in the qualifiers which aren't televised.  It doesn't do away with the televised mismatches in Leinster. 

Solution.  No Second Tier - stop televising so many games in the Leinster Championship.  And I'm not really joking.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2018, 03:29:08 PM
Football is a total mess. It needs fundamental reform with money the focus.
A second tier may or may not work. It depends on whether or not the GAA is arsed. I think the Feng shui in Croke Park is dreadful.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on September 19, 2018, 04:08:44 PM
In the last 9 years teams that played Division 4 have played 182 championship games.

They have won just 2 games against Division 1 opposition and 6 games against Division 2 opposition.

A second tier championship won't magically solve the problems of these lowest tier counties, but it could at least lead to a situation where they get an increased number of competitive games.

This year the margins in the 16 games that Division 4 teams lost were (in points) 27, 23, 18, 18, 14, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7, 5

10 out of these 16 games were home games for the Division 4 teams - the rule about Division 3 and Division 4 teams getting home advantage in the qualifiers, didn't seem to have much of an affect in helping with the scoreline the margins in these 10 games were 27, 23, 18, 14, 14, 13, 10, 10, 5

Maybe teams and players in Division 4 are grand and content with the current situation but the current situation seems a long way from ideal to my mind.





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 05:10:41 PM
Flogging a dead horse. County boundaries are not, and never have been, an appropriate way of sectioning players into teams. The County system is used in England for Cricket, but movement is allowed in and out of the county so that the County can be competitive. Not here. You're stuck with your population and player base and that closed door policy will ensure that the weak can never prosper. Basically, the county system is a complete sham, but ironically enough, the GAA use it as their USP.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 05:46:40 PM
What's your alternative?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on September 19, 2018, 08:43:07 PM
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup doing again?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 10:33:02 PM
What's your alternative?

No point even discussing it. As a Roscommon native, you should be happy to take whatever Galway and Mayo don't want. Be grateful that you get the odd bite. I reached an all time low sitting in front of Dublin fans clapping our scores and being genuinely surprised that we had "one or two who could play a bit". Best to get us into a lower tier competition and stop cluttering up the place.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on September 19, 2018, 10:53:43 PM
Flogging a dead horse. County boundaries are not, and never have been, an appropriate way of sectioning players into teams. The County system is used in England for Cricket, but movement is allowed in and out of the county so that the County can be competitive. Not here. You're stuck with your population and player base and that closed door policy will ensure that the weak can never prosper. Basically, the county system is a complete sham, but ironically enough, the GAA use it as their USP.
Maybe you could have county amalgamations or franchises?

Galway and Mayo could merge to become "Galwayo".
Cork and Kerry could merge to become become "Cerry", or maybe "Kork", or maybe even "Corkerry".
Tyrone and Derry would merge to become "Tyrone". If the Derry people objected they could merge with London instead.

Then knock a load of drive through counties together to form the BMW Region. Would be a handy sponsorship tie in there and all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on September 19, 2018, 11:06:48 PM
What's your alternative?

No point even discussing it. As a Roscommon native, you should be happy to take whatever Galway and Mayo don't want. Be grateful that you get the odd bite. I reached an all time low sitting in front of Dublin fans clapping our scores and being genuinely surprised that we had "one or two who could play a bit". Best to get us into a lower tier competition and stop cluttering up the place.

In a forum filled with weak attempts at trolling (that the posters appear to think are brilliantly constructed rouses) this has to be one of the more embarassing efforts.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 20, 2018, 08:30:12 AM
Trolling? Me? You have over 15,000 posts. This forum is your life
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 29, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/possibility-of-success-needs-to-be-part-of-the-intercounty-contract-1.3644895?mode=amp
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyHarp on October 03, 2018, 09:07:53 AM
Run off the league. 1st plays 32nd, 2nd plays 31st and so on.
If you lose you go into a secondary competition. If you win you continue in AI championship.
Once you lose for 2nd time you are out of either competition. Knock out all the way.

Every county gets at least two competitive games
More emphasis on league, especially later games.
Does away with meaningless inter provincial championships
There will be the odd scalp which will still give that bit of romance to the thing.

(apologies if this has already been suggested. Haven't read any previous posts)

Can't wait for Dublin v London in round 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 09:26:49 AM
So be it.

Should have said - after round 1 its open draw  :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 03, 2018, 01:20:26 PM
So be it.

Should have said - after round 1 its open draw  :)

This might have some support, I would modify by having top 8 automatically into tier 1 and bottom 8 into tier 2, the round 1 games would then be essentially div 2 v div 3 which should provide some close games...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 02:07:14 PM
All the Div 2 and Div3 teams would be playing each other in Rd1 anyway given their league positions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 03, 2018, 05:46:54 PM
Correct you just avoid the div 4 v div 1 which would not be entertaining at all
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 03, 2018, 06:22:28 PM
Limerick Manager in favour of 2nd Tier

Quote
ďI know there are people who donít agree with a two-tier championship but football is now the only sport under the Gaelic Games banner which doesnít have a tiered system. There are tiers in hurling, camogie, and ladies football. Itís time football went that way too,Ē said Lee.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/limerick-boss-lee-supports-second-tier-championship-871449.html

Benji Whelan the new Waterford manager also said it was worth looking at.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/new-deise-boss-whelan-open-to-secondary-competition-872104.html

Ciaran Deely the London manager has spoken out in favour of it before.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 04, 2018, 04:17:04 PM
May be a few dead rubber games in round 1 but no doubt an odd shock also. IMO the way forward ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 18, 2018, 04:06:11 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

Quote
Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on October 18, 2018, 04:43:36 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

Quote
Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.
It's bad enough doing that as it is, but in a Tier 2 competition too? What would they call it like, the "Not-so-super 8's"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 18, 2018, 06:43:18 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

Quote
Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.

This idea or some variation has to come in soon. Great idea from wicklow.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 18, 2018, 07:16:08 PM
Playing a Tier 2 Final with the main Final will mean the participants getting about 2,000 tickets each!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on October 18, 2018, 08:01:03 PM
Tier 2 final the night before the final, with tickets to the final for both panels.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 18, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Wicklow never gave a shÓt about football before so itís no surprise to see that hasnít changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 18, 2018, 09:43:40 PM
Wicklow never gave a shÓt about football before so itís no surprise to see that hasnít changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their prospal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup,

Except for all the bits where itís completely different.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 18, 2018, 09:44:56 PM
Wicklow never gave a shÓt about football before so itís no surprise to see that hasnít changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their prospal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup,


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 10:12:58 AM
I'm cool with it but if I'm totally honest with myself as a mayo supporter I wouldn't be as keen if we were to drop outside the top tier , so my conclusion is it's up to the counties that would be effected . The top eight counties should have no say
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 19, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
Two headlines beside each other in yesterday's Indo

Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/wicklow-lead-drive-for-tier-2-football-championship-37432662.html

Wicklow champs could face two games in 24 hours
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/wicklow-champs-could-face-two-games-in-24-hours-37432660.html

I smell deflection.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rosnarun on October 19, 2018, 11:13:51 AM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 11:34:35 AM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year

HQ are really going to bite for that money-spinning AISF everyoneís been waiting for, Kerry vs. Louth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 11:44:59 AM
Wicklow never gave a shÓt about football before so itís no surprise to see that hasnít changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.

You obviously never set foot in baltinglass or rathnew
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 12:49:22 PM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year
Last 12 would be the best place for the winners and a place in the Tier 1 the following year no matter where they finish in the NFL. .
I would also suggest the 2 promoted teams from D3 play in the main competition.
Although seeing he/she who knows everything is against it -Congress will never dare to vote for a Tier 2 Championship ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 19, 2018, 01:49:54 PM
 Brilliant suggestion from Wicklow for a well thought out structured second tier All Ireland Championship.One caveat however.It would be important that the poor presentation of a previous attempt at introducing a secondary competition- ie the Tommy Murphy Cup- should not be repeated.This new proposed competition should be played along side the latter  stages of the Sam Maguire  Cup competition and marketed accordingly.All of the 32 counties should be treated equally in terms of opportunity in playing in a meaningful competition with a realistic chance of silverware attained on the biggest stage and biggest occasion of all.The reason why the current league system is so good and so competitive is that all counties are playing at their own level.All Division Three and Division Four league teams deserve the same fair treatment at championship level.Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
Wicklow never gave a shÓt about football before so itís no surprise to see that hasnít changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.

You obviously never set foot in baltinglass or rathnew

Similar to how most of Wicklow havenít darkened the doors at Aughrim, then.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 02:47:19 PM
.Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!
Not many from Fermanagh, Clare, Sligo or Longford wouldn't get to see it in the flesh.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 19, 2018, 03:01:11 PM
Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!

The dogs on the street know that it wouldn't work out like that, and instead they'd be playing it in Carrick on Shannon or Mullingar on a Saturday afternoon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 05:09:34 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show
Elphin still a noted common sense location ;D
Other possibility depending on scheduling -triple header Minor, U20 and the Tier 2 Finals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on October 19, 2018, 06:42:11 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

+1

As a general statement I think the GAA does a sh*t job on the weekend of the football final. They could have way more activities two to three days prior to final.

Personally speaking, I have no interest in showing up at 1pm to watch a U17 game when the final itself begins at 3.30.
 If they don't want to have it the evening before (and distribute 5,000 free tickets to the counties involved) then have the U17 final at noon and the second tier final at 1.45 or 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 19, 2018, 06:57:04 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

+1

As a general statement I think the GAA does a sh*t job on the weekend of the football final. They could have way more activities two to three days prior to final.

Personally speaking, I have no interest in showing up at 1pm to watch a U17 game when the final itself begins at 3.30.
 If they don't want to have it the evening before (and distribute 5,000 free tickets to the counties involved) then have the U17 final at noon and the second tier final at 1.45 or 2.

U17 final at 12.00, Tier 2 final at 1.45 and senior final at 3.45. Great day out and great viewing on tv also. Win win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fŻck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 07:23:25 PM
That's ye tould.
Sure no one will go against the Oracle.....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 07:29:52 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fŻck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 08:04:24 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fŻck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too

Lads wonít turn up for a minor AI final thatís paid for on their ticket, thereís no chance f them coming up a day early or if theyíre already up wasting more of their weekend on football than theyíre already.

Second rate football in a second rate completion isnít going to ever be sellable to casual supporters.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 08:31:04 PM
Well I for one if I was up for all Ireland weekend would definitely attend a B final minor final double header.

You wouldn't so that sums up the gulf in our love of the game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 19, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fŻck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too

Lads wonít turn up for a minor AI final thatís paid for on their ticket, thereís no chance f them coming up a day early or if theyíre already up wasting more of their weekend on football than theyíre already.

Second rate football in a second rate completion isnít going to ever be sellable to casual supporters.

Yup, very true.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2018, 10:58:17 PM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: tintin25 on October 21, 2018, 08:23:29 AM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.

This is pretty much the issue for me, when it comes to these Ďmiddle of the roadí counties who have flitted in/out of the top 16 in recent years but who traditionally would have in/around middle to top bracket.  Teams like Armagh, Derry, Meath, Fermanagh, Sligo etc....all major football counties where hurling plays second fiddle.  Itís one thing getting the likes of Wicklow ( always in lower bracket) to sign up and the likes of Waterford (again always in lower bracket and first love is Hurling), but the problem is selling it to counties similar to that Iíve already named...Iíd be fairly certain that fans of same would have no interest in watching their county in a ĎBí competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.

This is pretty much the issue for me, when it comes to these Ďmiddle of the roadí counties who have flitted in/out of the top 16 in recent years but who traditionally would have in/around middle to top bracket.  Teams like Armagh, Derry, Meath, Fermanagh, Sligo etc....all major football counties where hurling plays second fiddle.  Itís one thing getting the likes of Wicklow ( always in lower bracket) to sign up and the likes of Waterford (again always in lower bracket and first love is Hurling), but the problem is selling it to counties similar to that Iíve already named...Iíd be fairly certain that fans of same would have no interest in watching their county in a ĎBí competition.

I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 11:22:48 AM
Leitrim should be winning All Irelands after 120 years of playing top teams in Connacht and big teams from other Provinces on the Qualifiers.
Or is it just money they need like the Dublin hurlers.

For the benefit of Northerners I'd better put in one of these ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 11:48:52 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 12:05:31 PM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.

I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:25:51 PM

This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

For some reason you deleted this part of my post. Why did you do that?

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
Leitrim should be winning All Irelands after 120 years of playing top teams in Connacht and big teams from other Provinces on the Qualifiers.
Or is it just money they need like the Dublin hurlers.

For the benefit of Northerners I'd better put in one of these ::)

We better kick all counties with a small population out so. Monaghan only have 60,000 people. Time to ignore anything they've won recently and boot them into the losers league. What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:46:34 PM
I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.

Or instead of killing Gaelic football in all these counties, why don't we look at the recent past when the football championship was competitive and what changed that.
The Leinster championship is a great example. In 2004 Westmeath won it, in 2003 Laois won it. In the decade before it was won by Kildare, Meath, Offaly and yes Dublin. It was open, competitive and exciting. Then Dublin had millions of euro pumped into them and the Leinster championship was destroyed, it's now dead.
The same thing is happening at All Ireland level. Dublin are murdering the competition and the only counties who can come anywhere close are those with money.
Why should all the 'weaker' counties be punished because of the financial doping of others? There's those who say something similar to 'why drag the best down, it's up to the others to catch up'. Well let me give you an analogy that explains this.
I'm going to use cycling. Lance Armstrong was at the top of that sport, 7 Tour De France titles. He was doped to the eyeballs, in order to try to catch him, others doped themselves to the gills also. That is where we're at in Gaelic football. Dublin are Lance Armstrong and there's a few counties trying to keep up but they don't have access to the best drugs.
In cycling they attempted to clean it up. The speed cyclists were going up mountains slowed, the standard got worse but it was a fair competition. That's what we have to do in Gaelic football. Try to rid us of the dopers and let us have a fair competition once more.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 12:49:56 PM
Ok so how much do you think Leitrim should get and how soon will they be winning Sam?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Ok so how much do you think Leitrim should get and how soon will they be winning Sam?

You forgot to answer these questions for some reason.

We better kick all counties with a small population out so. Monaghan only have 60,000 people. Time to ignore anything they've won recently and boot them into the losers league. What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 02:45:05 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?

I've shortened the quote to make it easier for you:

What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 21, 2018, 03:11:36 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?

Why are you trying your hardest to set up the strawman of winning an AI being the gauge of success in the championship?

Also giving the super-province team of Dublin exists you could easily replace Leitrim with Kerry or Mayo and it would apply just as well. Which ironically makes the case for fixing the finances first before any childish, attention deficit induced attempts at format change are attempted.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 04:13:19 PM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.

I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.

The provincials have been seriously devalued since 2001.  If there was a tiered system the provincials would become utterly meaningless. Playing them would become a token gesture.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 21, 2018, 04:18:36 PM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.


The real reason for keeping the provincial championship is because once you get rid of them, then the need for the provincial councils pretty much disappears.
Far too many GAA committee men would be out of a job if the provincial councils were done away with.
Instead the provincial councils will remain until the sun burns out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 04:27:46 PM
There's more to a provincial council than the senior county c'ship. It's the cash cow but it's only 5 or 6 matches a year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. Iíd much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. Thereís no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 04:43:57 PM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 22, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?

Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 06:18:31 PM
Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have

Your solution is to boot counties into the losers league and magically those left will make the top tier competitive? Absolute nonsense.

Here's a snippet of the plan that will save Gaelic Games:

1. Split Dublin into 4
2. Employ Strategic Development officers for all counties
3. Draw up development plans needed to improve Gaelic football and hurling in all counties
4. Employ full time coaches and other development officers to implement the plan for each county
5. Finance each county with the resources needed to implement these plans
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?
No need to be embarrassed, you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
The Inter County one, which has been done away with on Ulster was for players from non-senior clubs to get a chance to play at a higher level. It is not the best team from that County competing at a suitable level.
 At club level teams are graded to give them a chance to play teams at a similar level. I would say there were not too many teams which lifted Intermediate or Junior championship s yesterday who thought they were competing in a losers league. They worked hard and saw it as a reward for their hard work and a chance to step up and test themselves at the next level.

You got to walk before you can run. If a County canít walk they should be leaving to do that first.

I wouldnít expect Tyrone to compete for the Liam McCarthy nor Tattyreagh to compete for the Andy Merrigan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 09:54:22 PM
Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being ďironicĒ when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 11:17:54 PM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being ďironicĒ when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being ďironicĒ when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2018, 06:38:22 PM
And the following 4 All Irelands will be won by Carlow, Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim.....just like it used to be in the good old days ::).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on October 23, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
if keeping the Provincial championships is so important, do away with the likes of McKenna cup, start the leagues earlier and then have the Provincial championships as a stand alone competition. Run it off over a few weeks, ie no more of the no overlapping games, no reason why for example, in ulster the 4 quarter finals cant be played over one weekend, week break then semis week break then final. all run off in a few condensed weeks then the Stand alone All Irelands can start.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2018, 08:23:35 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/emlyn-mulligan-hoping-for-new-championship-format/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 08:26:50 PM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.
You are a wile man for feeling embarrassed. No need. It is an anonymous forum. Neither the Junior nor the Tommy Murphy are true B competitions.The Tommy Murphy was a secondary competition for teams beaten in the primary competition.
A proper 2 tier championship would have teams competing in the appropriate grade only, just like championships up and down the Country.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 23, 2018, 08:35:08 PM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.

Have any of the hurling teams from the lower tiers ever been competitive at a higher level? Have they ever had large crowds at their games or had games shown on tv? They have a lot more more coverage now on tv, radio and in the papers than those counties had 20 or 30 years ago when most people werenít even aware they had hurling teams. Also I know for a fact that the players from many of the lower tier hurling counties are absolutely delighted with the new structures because it gives them a chance/hopeto play in a big game in croke park. I know one lad from donegal who cherishes his all ireland medal and to him it means as much as a liam mccarthy medal. Football has to go the same way in terms of tiers (at least 2), otherwise more than half the counties will continue to lose interest.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:20:58 PM
And the following 4 All Irelands will be won by Carlow, Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim.....just like it used to be in the good old days ::).

Nothing was said about All Ireland's. Carlow getting to a Leinster semi final this year meant something to them. Any match in the losers league would be meaningless.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:22:20 PM
You are a wile man for feeling embarrassed. No need. It is an anonymous forum. Neither the Junior nor the Tommy Murphy are true B competitions.The Tommy Murphy was a secondary competition for teams beaten in the primary competition.
A proper 2 tier championship would have teams competing in the appropriate grade only, just like championships up and down the Country.

I've already blasted the losers league out of the water. It would have disastrous results for the counties thrown into it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:48:55 PM
Have any of the hurling teams from the lower tiers ever been competitive at a higher level? Have they ever had large crowds at their games or had games shown on tv? They have a lot more more coverage now on tv, radio and in the papers than those counties had 20 or 30 years ago when most people werenít even aware they had hurling teams. Also I know for a fact that the players from many of the lower tier hurling counties are absolutely delighted with the new structures because it gives them a chance/hopeto play in a big game in croke park. I know one lad from donegal who cherishes his all ireland medal and to him it means as much as a liam mccarthy medal. Football has to go the same way in terms of tiers (at least 2), otherwise more than half the counties will continue to lose interest.

That's all the Donegal's etc have in hurling, why do you want football to become a minority sport in many counties? That's what will happen. Hurling needs more teams to become competitive, there's people actually advocating that we make more counties uncompetitive in football. There'd be no returning from that.

Let me repeat what works and what will actually improve the state of Gaelic Football. Antrim, Laois, Westmeath and Dublin were all around the same level in hurling in the early 2000's. Antrim, Laois and Westmeath continued on as normal. Entering the provincial championships, hopping around various league formats and championship formats including these magical tiered championships. They have never been able to reach the top tier, in fact, it could be said that they've gone backwards, especially Antrim and Laois.
The other county I mentioned was Dublin. They lost to Laois by 4 goals in 2005, they lost to Westmeath in 2006, they were generally getting whippings of teams like Offaly around this time, they were getting a couple of hundred people attending their matches. They were minnows in the same way that many counties in football are now.
As has been well documented by now, Bertie and co granted Dublin GAA millions and their standards completely changed. It obviously started with underage improvements and success and then it grew into senior success. They are now a top tier team. They are competitive. Investing in their structures has transformed them.
Financing counties is the only route that we can take. It's the only hope of making them competitive. It works. The template is there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 24, 2018, 03:51:45 PM

Quote
Emlyn Mulligan hoping for new Championship format
Saturday 20 October 2018
 
By Cian O'Connell

Leitrim footballer Emlyn Mulligan is hopeful a Second Tier Championship will be introduced soon.

Even though Leitrim featured in four matches this summer Mulligan believes a new format would aid developing counties significantly.

"Yeah, it would definitely appeal to me," Mulligan says. "We're sitting idle a long time now since June.

"I did a few media gigs at the Super 8s and it was great watching on at the games but at the same time, regardless of the level I'd love to be out there playing again in some sort of a competition. Because we're not improving. In the last three years we've drawn Roscommon in the draw.

"Them lads were playing in the Super 8s regardless of whether they were getting hammered or not they're still getting games against massive teams. Whereas we can see the progression we got even by beating Louth, we put it up to Monaghan for periods of the game. If you had another two or three games in a different competition it's going to bring you on naturally.

"There's players there from bigger counties, the likes of Dublin, that have probably played more Championship games in a year than even myself has played throughout my career. When you're looking back on that basis, games are the only way you're going to improve. The more games the better is the way I look at it."

Does Mulligan feel that a different format is imminent? "You'd hope it is," Mulligan responds. "In fairness, you say it's a big chance and it is surely.

"The Super 8s came around and you're looking at them enforcing these new rules. It doesn't take them that long to make some changes. This is one of the biggest problems at the minute - players sitting idle since the start of June and watching on as other counties are playing in different competitions and now the Super 8s are there. I just believe there should be another system, whether they change the structure of the Championship I don't know.

"Be it that there's three groups of eight or whatever it maybe, and they're ran alongside each other and there's a final in Croke Park. That's what lads dream of. I've never played in Croke Park, but that's what you aspire to do to get there.

"Regardless of what way you get there at this stage, I just want to be up there and you want to be there in the middle of August still playing county football."

Mulligan doesn't think that a lot of players and other counties are against trialling a fresh approach. "I know you have a man across there from Carlow (Paul Broderick), they've a totally different opinion on it and you can understand," Mulligan accepts.

"I think the likes of their wins last year or even ours against Louth, I just personally think they're covering the cracks to be honest. If you go through other counties and how many hammerings they've got throughout their time. It's covering over cracks. "You've one great success story and you've 10 behind it and it's just covering up for the GAA. It's easy for Turlough O'Brien or even our own managers coming out and saying, 'It's great.' But you have to be realistic.

"In the Connacht championship I've only one victory ever in my 11 years playing if you take London and New York out of it. That's against Sligo in 2011. You're playing that long you'd have hoped you would have had a bit more playing teams at your own level.

"But we're in Connacht with three teams that are competing in Division 1, it's very hard for us to up our game three divisions come Championship day. "You'll be talking about it for a long time but you just hope someone maybe can just say, 'Right this has to be done' and people get in behind it to get good support from county managers more so than anyone else."

A decade on the inter-county beat with Leitrim Mulligan still thoroughly enjoys the game. "I love it," Mulligan admits. "I do love it. I suppose I've been lucky enough to get gigs like this to come up to. I've got a lot out of the game. I've always played for Leitrim trying to make them a better team and trying to push them on for younger lads that want to play for Leitrim. I always think people look down on us.

"My biggest pet hate is reading articles where they compare Dublin to Leitrim and it's always Leitrim. That really annoys me. I'm like, why not compare it to Wicklow? Why not compare it to Carlow? We're actually fine in Leitrim. We've money, we're happy out, we're well looked after, we don't want for anything, we know no better. But it's always 'poor Leitrim.'

"I always give off the perception that we need to change this. It's a mentality outside of Leitrim where young lads are going to college up in UCD or DCU and I can guarantee to go to a Sigerson trial and are asked where they're from. They say Leitrim and they won't look at you as eagerly as a lad that's playing with St Vincent's in Dublin.

"But it's up to us to change that. You see the perspective now of Carlow, it's changed completely. That's what we're trying to aim for and strive for. "But again, we just need to have our best players there and unfortunately year in year out, it's a struggle to get them all to commit.

"But hopefully Terry (Hyland) will be the man in the middle that can get them all to pull together for the year ahead."

The arrival of former Cavan manager Terry Hyland is a boost according to Mulligan. "I've been speaking to him a few times, he seems to have gotten a decent backroom team into place," Mulligan states.

"Jason Reilly is in as coach by all accounts, chatting to Cavan people he seems to be very good and he was a great footballer himself.

"There's a few other strong candidates in there that'll give him a boost. Chatting to a few of the lads, a lot of them are excited about going back. The biggest thing for us is keeping 99% of players we had last year and bring in a couple extra that maybe walked away last year or the year before.

"There's confidence around the county. As I said, Division Four is our target and hopefully Terry will bring in that experience he's had. He brought Cavan from, I think, Division Three to Division One so he knows the ins and outs of how it's done. Looking forward to getting at it again. Hard to believe it's come back around already at this stage of the year.

"I'm sure Terry will be getting us to put the head down over the next couple of weeks and trying to put a system in place to get us ready for the National League at the end of January."

http://www.gaa.ie/search/crawl/news/emlyn-mulligan-hoping-for-new-championship-format
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp

The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Quote
Interestingly, almost 60 per cent of football members surveyed told us they would support a change to a tiered football championship.

Also the April club month looks like a total failure - leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 25, 2018, 05:53:48 PM


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.

Quote
Also the April club month looks like a total failure
As was ever going to be the case.
Quote
leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.
It's clubs and their delegates who make the decisions in each county.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 25, 2018, 07:54:36 PM


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.

Quote

Lol, Iím sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 09:31:24 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp

The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Quote
Interestingly, almost 60 per cent of football members surveyed told us they would support a change to a tiered football championship.

Also the April club month looks like a total failure - leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.

Very interesting indeed, I wonder what the % would have been even 2 years ago?? Alot less I'd say




The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Listen up Leitrim and Wicklow etc etc etc etc , get the fingers out and train a bit harder ffs
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 11:57:22 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-championship-set-for-2020-introduction-37460412.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 26, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
Quote
Quote


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Quote

Lol, Iím sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.

Two years ago, you'd have included Carlow in that. Now they're dead set against a tiered championship because they've got off their arses in the meantime and taken several notable scalps. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 12:29:51 PM
Quote
Quote


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Quote

Lol, Iím sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.

Two years ago, you'd have included Carlow in that. Now they're dead set against a tiered championship because they've got off their arses in the meantime and taken several notable scalps.

Of course a manager is gonna come out as being against it and beat his chest after a couple of championship wins and it's fresh in the memory. It's a message to his players that they can compete. In reality, history shows they can't and don't. In a 2nd tier, who knows
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Carlow's only notable scalp was Kildare in the Leinster in May 2018.
Their other scalps were against other basement or under achievers.
They may have got "off their arses" but getting promoted from D4 is the easy part.
Anyway well see what the CC come up with in November.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 26, 2018, 01:17:44 PM
Imagine if every vlub in your county could only participate in the SFC.......

That's what the current intercounty scene is
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
And only knock out games!!
I'd say 10 would have folded at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 26, 2018, 01:23:51 PM
Imagine if every vlub in your county could only participate in the SFC.......

That's what the current intercounty scene is

Ah but they just need to get off their arses and work harder. I can just see Ardmore taking on slaughtneil in Derry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 26, 2018, 01:50:02 PM
Carlow's only notable scalp was Kildare in the Leinster in May 2018.
Their other scalps were against other basement or under achievers.
They may have got "off their arses" but getting promoted from D4 is the easy part.
Anyway well see what the CC come up with in November.

Wasn't that easy for them lets be fair.

Only 4 years ago they finished last in Div 4 and when you are that low you aren't expected to take any scalps.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 26, 2018, 04:33:43 PM
So it looks like a B Championship. I've always thought that the players from the lower tier's opinion is the most important so so be it.

I find it very strange that two of the worst teams in the country are looking forward to a championship where (presumably) they'll be up against teams from the top half of Division 3. But let's wait and see what's put forward.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 05:11:36 PM
If they only took my proposal of Senior, Intermediate and Junior........
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 03:26:02 PM
Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed Ď60pc of football members now supporting a changeí, Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

ďIf you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no,Ē he told the Irish Independent. ďBut if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

ďNo disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

ďIt's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway.Ē
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 31, 2018, 03:46:22 PM
Pete McGrath


ďObviously Iíd need to see the blueprint whenever it comes out. They have to be smart about this.

ďWe all know thereíd be a stigma attached to teams who are able to play only in a second or third tier.

ďIf the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

ďThen, at a certain point, if a county doesnít win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition Ė to me that would appear more democratic.Ē

Having departed Fermanagh after expressions of dressing room unrest, McGrath knows that keeping the players happy is key to any success:

ďThere would still be players who, whenever their county drops out of the main competition, would say ĎIím not committing to anything else, Iíve more to do with my timeí.

ďI donít know what the reaction would be, but we all know that mind-set is there. I was surprised to read that figure of 60 per cent [in favour of a change] because prior to that any players asked had said Ďnoí.

ďEven those from smaller counties were adamant that they donít want to play in anything thatís regarded as Ďsecond tierí or however itís described.

ďThat also means 40 per cent werenít keen on change, and you have to look at that too.Ē
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2018, 04:21:14 PM
Pete McGrath




ďIf the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

ďThen, at a certain point, if a county doesnít win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition Ė to me that would appear more democratic.Ē



They already had that Pete  - Tommy Murphy Cup ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 31, 2018, 10:37:51 PM
Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed Ď60pc of football members now supporting a changeí, Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

ďIf you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no,Ē he told the Irish Independent. ďBut if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

ďNo disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

ďIt's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway.Ē

With respect I think Broderick is probably  placing a bit too much emphasis on Carlow's results in 2018 in terms of the wins over Louth and Kildare.
It's worth remembering that Louth played 10 games between league and championship and won 1 - against London; while Kildare played 15 and won 4 - Derry, Longford, Mayo and Fermanagh)
So while they had two wins against top 16 opposition, both of those teams had poor (if not miserable) seasons, with a combined record of played 25 won 5.
These stats are even a bit deceptive in that the loss to Carlow was a nadir for Kildare and they won their 4 games after this and Louth won their 1 game after this, so the record of the two teams Carlow beat was played 14 lost 14 for the year when Carlow played them.

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.

Teams Carlow have beaten in the championship from 2009 onwards (2008 was the last year of the Tommy Murphy Cup)
2018   Louth - relegated from Division 2
2018   Kildare - relegated from Division 1
2017   Wexford - promoted from Division 4
2017   London - bottom of Division 4
2017   Leitrim - 5th in Division 4
2016   Wicklow - 5th in Division 4
2014   Waterford - 5th in Division 4
2011   Louth - promoted from Division 3

Teams Carlow have lost to in the championship from 2009 onwards
2018   Laois
2018   Tyrone
2017   Dublin
2017   Monaghan
2016   Louth
2016   Cavan
2015   Laois
2015   Longford
2014   Meath
2014   Clare
2013   Westmeath
2013   Laois
2012   Meath
2012   Laois
2011   Wexford
2011   Antrim
2010   Wicklow
2010   Derry
2009   Louth
2009   Donegal





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 11:00:27 PM

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.
Lost convincingly in the end but you shouldn't forget what happened during those games which was competitive displays and a few Div 2 teams haven't managed to do that against those teams.

Dublin 0-10 Carlow 0-6 after 50mins then Brendan Murphy was sent off
Carlow 1-6 Monaghan 0-10 after 65 mins then a goal from Fintan Kelly



The point Broderick was making is he and his team mates would prefer to test themselves against top sides where the interest and enthusiasm from the public is high than playing in a 2nd tier championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2019, 11:09:17 AM
This won't be going to 2019 Congress I believe.
CC seeking consensus on whether it should be for all D3/4 Counties or only those that lose in Round 1 or of Qualifiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 06, 2019, 10:53:15 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/move-towards-two-speed-championship-picks-up-pace-1.3866238

Move towards two-speed championship picks up pace
Two options for proposed competition circulated to Division Three and Four counties
Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:00
 
SeŠn Moran

 
 
Moves towards a Tier 2 football championship quickened this week with a meeting in Croke Park, attended by the counties likely to be involved in such a departure Ė those from Divisions Three and Four. Two options for the proposed competition have been circulated to the counties with a view to bringing the more popular one to a special congress next autumn.
Division Three is likely to be defined as that constituted by the end of the league and this year that would mean Cork and Tipperary, the counties relegated from Division Two, and not Westmeath and Laois, who travelled in the other direction.
The choice is between a competition that begins as soon as counties are defeated in the provincial championships Ė unless they qualify for the final in which case they stay involved in the Sam Maguire Ė and one that allows counties to contest one or two rounds of the All-Ireland qualifiers.
Those at Mondayís meeting appeared more favourably disposed towards the former although support for the latter was more pronounced amongst the player representatives, who attended on behalf of the counties along with their Central Council delegates.
Developments are marking quite a turnaround from just three years ago when Croke Park had to pull a motion on a proposed ĎBí All-Ireland, restricted to Division Four counties, at the very start of the 2016 annual congress in Carlow. Part of the influence on that decision was the implacable opposition of the counties concerned and also the Gaelic Players Association.
By last November, the GPA signalled a change of mind on foot of a survey, indicating that 60 per cent of footballers now support the concept of a Tier 2 championship.
Amongst the findings were that 90 per cent of hurlers were happy that they had sufficient matches against teams of equal standard Ė unsurprisingly, as there are now five different championship tiers in the game Ė whereas the comparable figure for footballers was 53 per cent.

Counties have also begun to see the merit in the idea. Wicklow were early advocates of the competition and submitted detailed proposals last autumn, including the stipulation that counties entering the new championship would not contest the qualifiers.
There was irony in this because when the GAA previously attempted to introduce this type of streaming by directing all Division Four counties straight into the Tommy Murphy Cup and not allowing them to enter the qualifiers, it was a Wicklow motion that reversed the decision in 2008.
There was vindication when in 2009 Wicklow enjoyed its most successful season in the qualifiers, reaching the fourth round at which stage they lost to Kildare.

Two finals
The countyís Central Council delegate Martin Coleman says that the unhappiness in the county wasnít based on objecting to the idea of a Tier 2 competition and also explains the current rationale.
ďWe werenít against the Tommy Murphy Cup, just the way it was scheduled and the complete lack of promotion. We were lucky enough to get to two finals and we had to play when there was only seagulls in Croke Park. The plans for this are better. This is giving every county in Division Three and Four a chance.
ďThe way I look at it is that if you get a fairly substantial beating in the province and then go into the qualifiers and get another beating, the attitude isnít going to be right going into another competition.Ē
The question of profile frequently arises when Tier 2 championships are debated. As Coleman recounts, the Murphy Cup might have been played on the same bill as big matches in Croke Park but generally so early in the day that few apart from the counties involved were in attendance.
Securing dates for the new competition will be a challenge, as the GAA currently operates a very condensed calendar of matches in order to clear the way for additional weekends for club activity.
The GAA view is however that it should be possible to utilise the spare fixture space generated by the reduction in qualifier matches and maybe even find a stand-alone Sunday for a semi-finals double bill at Croke Park.
Whether this would guarantee media coverage is moot. Sceptical players point to the relative obscurity of even the most advanced graded championships in hurling, the Ring and McDonagh Cups, as an example of how Tier 2 competitions can slip off the radar.
Another of the main objections to filtering Division Three and Four counties out of the qualifiers is that it would slam the door on some of the most romantic achievements in qualifiers-era football. Counties like Wexford and Tipperary reached All-Ireland semi-finals, having come from Division Three but such feats were rarities.
On average just one county per annum from outside of the leagueís top 16 has reached the last eight of the All-Ireland football championship since the quarter-finals were introduced in 2001.
Shane Mulligan played for Longford for 10 years before stepping down four seasons ago and last year enjoyed an historic provincial title with his club, Mullinalaghta.
Giantkilling displays
ďI understand why players want that opportunity, one crack at it because on any given day, a result can go any way. Thatís a draw for players in a summer championship. There are pros and cons.Ē
He believes though that a Tier 2 structure would benefit counties like his by providing a more competitive schedule and a more orderly pathway to improvement and holds that view despite having played in a number of Longfordís great giantkilling displays in the qualifiers, days when Mayo and Derry were beaten and Kerry given a rattle.
ďYeah. I think thereís definitely a debate to be had. Iím looking back having played 10 years and gone through it and personally, my best memories were of those competitive days Ė we had some great Division Three finals in Croke Park Ė and I know we had some huge upsets when we took big scalps on a given day but I think itís about progression because it was too topsy-turvy to get a big result and then go to a poor performance against a lesser team."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:42:42 PM
'I'm a huge supporter of a tier-two Championship'

Ciaran Deeley London Manager strongly in favour

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0505/1047700-im-a-huge-supporter-of-a-tier-two-championship/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on May 08, 2019, 07:57:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 08:03:00 PM
A third or fourth tier might make more sense. Unless the powers that be are just trying to get the dross away from the main event.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 08, 2019, 09:40:59 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people donít know whoís left until maybe AI semi final day.

Thatís what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. Itís already happening with the back door.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LilySavage on May 08, 2019, 11:38:51 PM
Works perfectly well at club level. If it's done right, it works. Give it a decent name like Intermediate and not B or a Tommy Cooper Cup. Play final at 2pm before the Senior All Ireland. Be relatively easy to make it an attractive competition. Promotion /Relegation aspect would add a lot like it does at club level and in other sports. Reason there is apathy is because many counties know in January there is very little achievable.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 08, 2019, 11:43:27 PM
Playing with Senior Final.... how many tickets will the competing Counties get? 1500 like the Minors?
If more who among the privileged will lose their tickets?
Agree with point about not calling it the Paddy whatever cup or  a B thing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 09, 2019, 12:09:40 AM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 09, 2019, 09:27:55 AM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 09, 2019, 09:28:28 AM
They'll still be playing Div 1 sides in Connacht.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 09, 2019, 09:45:13 AM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.
You think London have a realistic chance of winning a title consisting of Division 3 and Division 4 teams?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 09, 2019, 10:05:45 AM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.
You think London have a realistic chance of winning a title consisting of Division 3 and Division 4 teams?

Yes, they're certainly not favourites but it's a realistic goal for them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Real Talk on May 09, 2019, 11:27:54 AM
The primary issue in this debate hinges on how to take the inequality in the structure and the overriding power of the Provincial Championships out of the equation.  I don't see how this can be resolved Ö. its not about a 'further tinkering' of the current system Ö. its about starting with a 32 county group of teams (forget about London and New York) and planning an exit to the Provincial Series in 2022 Ö in this scenario currently the Ulster Football Championship and the Munster Hurling Championship are the greatest avenues for financial income to those provinces , so how can that be solved ????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 09, 2019, 12:00:37 PM
The primary issue in this debate hinges on how to take the inequality in the structure and the overriding power of the Provincial Championships out of the equation.  I don't see how this can be resolved Ö. its not about a 'further tinkering' of the current system Ö. its about starting with a 32 county group of teams (forget about London and New York) and planning an exit to the Provincial Series in 2022 Ö in this scenario currently the Ulster Football Championship and the Munster Hurling Championship are the greatest avenues for financial income to those provinces , so how can that be solved ????


Including Kilkenny but not teams that have played in the championship for the last few years?

London deserve their place in a football championship. NY not realistic unless there's a 100% guarantee they'll fulfil fixtures over here if they won their first game (don't see that as realistic). Better leave Kilkenny til DJ's youngsters get a bit older!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on May 09, 2019, 12:08:17 PM
The primary issue in this debate hinges on how to take the inequality in the structure and the overriding power of the Provincial Championships out of the equation.  I don't see how this can be resolved Ö. its not about a 'further tinkering' of the current system Ö. its about starting with a 32 county group of teams (forget about London and New York) and planning an exit to the Provincial Series in 2022 Ö in this scenario currently the Ulster Football Championship and the Munster Hurling Championship are the greatest avenues for financial income to those provinces , so how can that be solved ????

There's no need for hurling and football championships to mirror each other is there? They haven't done so for years so see no reason why hurling can't retain the Munster hurling championship if that's thought to be the best format for the game.

Provincial councils can surely get a proportion of the overall take that would match or better what they get through provincial championships if crowds are good in the new format?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 01:44:05 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people donít know whoís left until maybe AI semi final day.

Thatís what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. Itís already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 09, 2019, 02:00:51 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people donít know whoís left until maybe AI semi final day.

Thatís what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. Itís already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
B would have to be before A in order to get the top 2 or whatever to qualify
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on May 09, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people donít know whoís left until maybe AI semi final day.

Thatís what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. Itís already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
B would have to be before A in order to get the top 2 or whatever to qualify

Fair point, I was actually thinking of promotion for the following year.
In reality, even if they did qualify for the A in the first year, it is unlikely (not impossible) that a Div 3 or Div 4 will qualify for semis in first year up, especially given the round robin aspects of qualifiers.

Look at how much interest it created in Leitrim this year, when they finally made a breakthrough, that has only got to be good for developing 10-12 year gaelic footballers.
This is truly a multi-step, multi multi year process.


.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 09, 2019, 03:09:22 PM
How much coverage and attention does the minor championship get these days? Taken away as the curtain raiser to the senior, played at odd times and in the back of beyond. Most people donít know whoís left until maybe AI semi final day.

Thatís what will happen to a tier 2 championship. Nobody will see it nor give a shit about it. Itís already happening with the back door.

I am in favor of the two tier Championship, with promotion for finalists if that's what it takes.

I believe it would have more relevance if the "B" semi-finals and final were played before the Senior "A'. The powers to be need to get their heads around this.

The GAA in general do not do a good marketing job. They would have to introduce this as part of a broader plan to truly promote Gaelic football in weaker counties. I.E add multiple full time coach's and if they are not utilized by the county, then those counties should be called out publicly on it. God knows the Croke Park and the provincial councils could help monitor this.

It will no doubt cost a lot of money, but if they are really serious about closing the gap over a decade or more, then time to bite the bullet.

Annual reality check will come again by the end of June when round 1 and 2 of Qualifiers have the usual blowouts.
B would have to be before A in order to get the top 2 or whatever to qualify

Fair point, I was actually thinking of promotion for the following year.
In reality, even if they did qualify for the A in the first year, it is unlikely (not impossible) that a Div 3 or Div 4 will qualify for semis in first year up, especially given the round robin aspects of qualifiers.

Look at how much interest it created in Leitrim this year, when they finally made a breakthrough, that has only got to be good for developing 10-12 year gaelic footballers.
This is truly a multi-step, multi multi year process.


.
Imagine if they beat Roscommon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 09, 2019, 03:32:33 PM
Just Frack the bloody place >:(
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 09, 2019, 06:22:42 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.
Probably learnt more about themselves in that game on Sunday than they would from winning a 2nd tier competition and i can imagine they won't be happy if the opportunity to take on Div 1 sides is taken away from them.

lol I'm sure they'll look back in 20 years time and think we learned a lot about ourselves in that game we lost v galway. I'm pretty sure they would prefer to be looking back at a memory of winning an All Ireland Intermediate title in Croke Park which is a realistic goal for them. Learning a lot about themselves is pretty meaningless when more than likely they will only have one or 2 more matches this season. The cureent system is farcical and becoming more so all the time as the gap widens.

London are Div 4 team that don't get close to promotion. Chances of winning a 2nd tier cup would be slim or none for them,  I'd say they were buzzing in training before the Galway game. I also think the chance of 2nd tier cup final played in Croke park will be slim.

It needs repeating but the tiered competition is already in place. Its called the NFL but how many people remembers or cherishes a Div 2,3 or 4 title? its time to make that competition more important tie it up to the championship or whatever is needed. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 10, 2019, 10:45:50 AM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/they-are-driven-by-nothing-other-than-numbers-gaa-president-hits-out-at-rte-over-tv-strategy-38097770.html

Horan also believes that football should follow hurling's lead and push ahead with tiered championships.

"Our football counterparts could learn an awful lot from hurling about the benefit of tiered championships.

"Carlow are a shining example to us in terms of the merit of these competitions and the progress which they've made. It's that progression opportunity that these competitions present, and I feel that's a great concept."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on May 12, 2019, 10:31:17 AM
So ye want a 2 tier championship, in other words half the teams can go to hell,in todays Sunday indo a photo of some Dublin players got more column space than the combined reports on the tipp/ lim and clare/ waterford games, and Dublin are not playing today.
The tiers or tears exist already.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: DuffleKing on May 12, 2019, 01:44:20 PM

If you're basing your decision making on the best route forward for football on the sindo's editorial decisions you should give it up.

How The GAA market their games is important but it shouldn't be the driver for what is best for the intercounty game and the association.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 12, 2019, 01:55:11 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/they-are-driven-by-nothing-other-than-numbers-gaa-president-hits-out-at-rte-over-tv-strategy-38097770.html

Horan also believes that football should follow hurling's lead and push ahead with tiered championships.

"Our football counterparts could learn an awful lot from hurling about the benefit of tiered championships.

"Carlow are a shining example to us in terms of the merit of these competitions and the progress which they've made. It's that progression opportunity that these competitions present, and I feel that's a great concept."

The layers of disgust i get from reading that. The irony in the statements from the GAA President. He expects RTE to give attention to games the GAA are trying to get rid of. The GAA is in a very sad state.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 12, 2019, 02:34:57 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/they-are-driven-by-nothing-other-than-numbers-gaa-president-hits-out-at-rte-over-tv-strategy-38097770.html

Horan also believes that football should follow hurling's lead and push ahead with tiered championships.

"Our football counterparts could learn an awful lot from hurling about the benefit of tiered championships.

"Carlow are a shining example to us in terms of the merit of these competitions and the progress which they've made. It's that progression opportunity that these competitions present, and I feel that's a great concept."

The layers of disgust i get from reading that. The irony in the statements from the GAA President. He expects RTE to give attention to games the GAA are trying to get rid of. The GAA is in a very sad state.
Zero leadership in the association for 5+ years
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 13, 2019, 05:46:29 AM
Fantastic coverage of the McDonagh and Ring Cups yesterday across MSM. That Laois/Offaly game was the game of the weekend, great to see RTE give it top Billing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 13, 2019, 08:07:21 AM
The lower tiers would get skant coverage
No mention of last year's Christy  Ring winners being beaten by Roscommon
Henry wouldn't even know how to find Athleague on a map
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on May 13, 2019, 11:01:44 AM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Or Derry of Div 4 (this year) V Tyrone of Div 1
or Limerick 2nd bottom of Div 4 V Tipp of Div 2 (this year)

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 13, 2019, 11:14:49 AM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Or Derry of Div 4 (this year) V Tyrone of Div 1
or Limerick 2nd bottom of Div 4 V Tipp of Div 2 (this year)
Yes indeed, forgot about those.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 11:21:52 AM
Tipp would be tier 2 under current proposal.
The Provincials will still be with us too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 13, 2019, 12:00:56 PM
I'm still against it. Brolly was singing the praises of it after Ros hammered Leitrim, yet if he was to be consistent why the hell didn't he/they in the studio mention it after Offaly gave Meath a scare. Afterall it is supposed to be for the Div 3 and 4 teams who shouldn't dare put it up to higher ranked opposition.
Or Derry of Div 4 (this year) V Tyrone of Div 1
or Limerick 2nd bottom of Div 4 V Tipp of Div 2 (this year)
Yes indeed, forgot about those.

The usual nonsense from Brolly. I was hoping RTE would have the sense to replace him by now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LilySavage on May 13, 2019, 12:13:31 PM
Jim McGuinness idea still the best Ive heard. Scrap preseason tournaments. Start league 2-3 weeks earlier. Teams from Div 1 and 2 qualify for senior All Ireland of 4 groups of 4. Play Provincial Championships before this as currently the case. (In unlikely event that a bolter from Div 3 or 4 win Province then they take 16th position from league and join Senior All Ireland.)
Call the 2nd tier tournament the All Ireland Intermediate Championship. Again 4 groups of 4. Play the final at 2pm before the senior. (You can name the Cup after whichever GAA icon you like )
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on May 13, 2019, 12:22:47 PM
Fantastic coverage of the McDonagh and Ring Cups yesterday across MSM. That Laois/Offaly game was the game of the weekend, great to see RTE give it top Billing.

Out of sight, out of mind - a sign of things to come if a second tier is introduced in football.
I was amazed that The Sunday Game did not even give the results from the Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cup matches.


Having said that I agree with those who propose that the Provincial Championships be played at start of year replacing O'Byrne, McKenna, McGrath and FBD.
The Provincial Championships would be just that, i.e. confined to each Province.

The League, however best restructured, becomes the Championship with all teams having some possibility of reaching Playoffs which would be knock-out.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 13, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
I think if they changed the name of the person the cup is named after every year it would make the 2nd tier competition that much more attractive, obviously it would need to be a significant GAA figure. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2019, 01:20:49 PM
I think if they changed the name of the person the cup is named after every year it would make the 2nd tier competition that much more attractive, obviously it would need to be a significant GAA figure.
Larry Reilly
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on May 13, 2019, 01:22:04 PM
Tipp would be tier 2 under current proposal.
The Provincials will still be with us too.

Brolly was talking about having (at least!) 3 tiers.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 01:26:08 PM
I'm talking about the real proposals which the Central Council and the Div3/4 Counties have been discussing.

Most Counties already have 3 tier Club Championships.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2019, 01:33:08 PM
Tipp would be tier 2 under current proposal.
The Provincials will still be with us too.

Brolly was talking about having (at least!) 3 tiers.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/this-is-cruel-its-cruel-whats-happening-joe-brolly-calls-on-gaa-to-introduce-three-tiers-38105182.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 13, 2019, 02:44:13 PM
ask the McDonagh, formerly Christy Ring counties what they think of the setup?
less and less coverage every year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 13, 2019, 02:50:20 PM
Why is so much emphasis being placed on the number of minutes of coverage on the Sunday game.
If there was an interest they would show it. Attendances would be a reflection of the interest.

Which is more important, realistic competition or a couple of minutes of talking Brollix.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: befair on May 13, 2019, 02:52:37 PM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 13, 2019, 03:20:24 PM
Why is so much emphasis being placed on the number of minutes of coverage on the Sunday game.
If there was an interest they would show it. Attendances would be a reflection of the interest.

Which is more important, realistic competition or a couple of minutes of talking Brollix.
Leo, I think the point is that in the current system, each team has a chance, no matter how small, of a bit of exposure should they cause an upset or even just get a bit of a run in the qualifiers.

Teams not on the telly now get on the telly and everyone in that county gets a little bit more excited.

The prediction is that unless your county makes the B final that this excitement won't occur and we all need a little excitement in our lives every now and again.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 03:53:07 PM
I was so looking forward to the highlights of Longford v Warwickshire......
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 13, 2019, 04:03:09 PM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW

They'll never move the minor final, because that would impact the strongest counties.

They've had 14 years to do it for hurling since the Christy Ring Cup was started and they never bothered.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 04:08:29 PM
How many sacred cows will have to forego their AI Final tickets if you had the Tier 2 Final on with the Senior?
Or do ye suggest only giving the Tier 2 finalists the same 1500 or allocation the Minors get?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 13, 2019, 04:19:41 PM
2 tiers me hole.

Roscommon were a div 1 team in 2018 (or promoted anyway), tanked by Dublin and Tyrone in Super 8. They are also Div 1 teams. Div 1 Kerry also tanked  Div 1 Kildare.

If Div 1 teams are tanking other Div 1 teams, then of course Div 1 teams will tank Div 3/4 teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 13, 2019, 04:51:22 PM
We definitely need a special tier for London, New York and Modor (Armagh).
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on May 13, 2019, 07:46:21 PM
The way you are talking benny we need a 2 tier division 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 13, 2019, 08:05:48 PM
The way you are talking benny we need a 2 tier division 1.

Thatís what Brolly and Co will be saying, after they get their 2 tiers!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 13, 2019, 09:30:34 PM
Has the GAA decision making process been changed?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 13, 2019, 10:01:56 PM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provincials. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 13, 2019, 10:10:07 PM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW

They'll never move the minor final, because that would impact the strongest counties.

They've had 14 years to do it for hurling since the Christy Ring Cup was started and they never bothered.
They played the CR final the day of the McCarthy Cup semi final. The minors were relegated to the 1st gsme of 3.
Strong hurling counties soon got that changed back...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 13, 2019, 10:25:43 PM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provisonals. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.

Me too. But itís not going to happen.

The GAA want to gather all the big guns, and make them play each other again and again, in front of big crowds, and milk that tit dry. Then proclaim how great our games are. While 25 other counties are forgotten about, never to be seen on our TV screens.

The more the championship is fecked about with, the more sense the old provincial system makes sense.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 13, 2019, 10:52:59 PM
the gaa get the big matches with the concurrent  league and championship with the league in the summer. if league went to 3 divisions you could have 8 12 12 or 10 10 12.

weaker teams 11 league and minimum 1 championship and stronger 7/9 league and minimum 1 championship but likely 3-6. they also get provincial matches.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 14, 2019, 12:00:51 AM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provisonals. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.

Me too. But it’s not going to happen.

The GAA want to gather all the big guns, and make them play each other again and again, in front of big crowds, and milk that tit dry. Then proclaim how great our games are. While 25 other counties are forgotten about, never to be seen on our TV screens.

The more the championship is fecked about with, the more sense the old provincial system makes sense.

In a nutshell and a big push by the "elite" over the last year to make this happen now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 14, 2019, 12:05:51 AM
Is there something to be said for another mass a boycott by teams and fans? Maybe thatíll make the head honchos sit up and take notice.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 14, 2019, 08:35:58 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/kevin-mcstay-provincial-championships-reaching-the-end-of-the-line-1.3891140

Kevin McStay: Provincial championships reaching the end of the line

Many formerly intense rivalries fading away as results closely follow the formbook


about 2 hours ago


 
Kevin McStay

 
ďPleasantĒ was the word that sprang to mind at the Roscommon-Leitrim championship derby on Sunday. There was a lovely crowd and the day was nice. But the game itself was over as a contest early on and, despite Leitrimís excellent league showing, Roscommon had too much for them.

Long before the final whistle, the conversations around us were drifting towards other matters. In his match programme welcome to patrons, the Connacht council president Gearůid McSamhrŠin noted that if there is to be a two -tier championship, then that should come into play only after a county has been eliminated from the provincial championship. In other words, the provincial championship is sacred. But for how long?

One of the great surprises to me when I was involved with Roscommon was the level of anxiety with which many people in the county seemed to approach Leitrim games. Even during the week, people in Roscommon clearly saw this as a real challenge even though the game was in Dr Hyde Park. There is this deep -rooted, long-standing local rivalry of which I hadnít been fully aware despite living in the town for many years.

Youíd constantly hear this refrain: ďWell, we have a big rivalry with Leitrim.Ē Or: ďOh God, I donít like paying them in Carrick at all. We struggle against them always.Ē

I was fascinated by this and I looked it up to discover that Roscommon have never lost a championship game to Leitrim in Carrick-on-Shannon. But this is just one of the intense, complex local rivalries deeply embedded in the GAA and which has always given the provincial championship its kinetic energy.

Sunday in Dr Hyde Park ran along such overwhelmingly predictable lines that it made me wonder to what extent the border rivalry is still alive.

One of my most memorable introductions to the power of the local rivalry was in 2006 when I was covering a game between Tyrone and Derry in Omagh for RT… television.

Like most people, I knew that they had history but to my mind, at that point in time, Tyrone were in a different league; they were All-Ireland champions, they were young, the manner of their win the previous September meant that they were the talk of the country. But in the ground that day, that disparity did not exist.

There was genuine concern among Tyrone fans. Equally, there was a real defiance among the Derry crowd and an expectation that their team would take Tyrone on physically and impose themselves. In attitude, it was the last remnants of the Eamon Coleman era. And both sets of crowds did not really like one another.

Almost feral

The idea of losing was unconscionable. The atmosphere was almost feral. The tribalism was absolute. It is an amazing thing that 20 yards of land can create this intense contrast in loyalties and emotions. But the atmosphere that day was extraordinary. There was a sense that all bets were off; this was a day in which anything could happen.

And lo and behold, Derry came out and won by six points. I remember wondering where that had come from; for how long had that Derry team been thinking about and planning that one game. Once the fixtures were announced, they had six, seven months to think about it and talk about it and prepare.

Tyrone became their reason to be and they would have been conscious of the portrayal of those players as champions. And afterwards, there was an unmistakable sense of a significant shift: the champions had been beaten and that changed everything. That was the power of the local rivalry, the potential for this unexpected shock.
Tyrone versus Derry in 2006 generated an awesome atmosphere but Derry have slipped a long way down the rankings and the rivalry has been diluted. Photograph: Lorcan Doherty/Inpho Tyrone versus Derry in 2006 generated an awesome atmosphere but Derry have slipped a long way down the rankings and the rivalry has been diluted. Photograph: Lorcan Doherty/Inpho 
Itís probably the elemental thrill of the football championship: the possibility that one county will defy form and tradition and use the energy of that rivalry to take their neighbour out. In the 1980s and 1990s, I think those days were quite common. There was less information available then: teams could train away in seclusion, maybe spring a debutante player and pull off an ambush in the sun. But over the last decade, they are an increasingly rare occurrence.

On Sunday, we had an extremely good performance from Offaly who came close to what would have been a considerable shock against Meath in Navan.

Had Niall McNamee managed to finish the goal chance he worked, then that game would have been over. And Limerickís win over Tipperary was a huge surprise because Tippí are regarded as a top 12 team. But I think the idea of the All-Ireland champions being taken down in provincial games is becoming increasingly remote.

And yet, the siege mentality remains hugely important to teams. Returning to Roscommon, they face Mayo next in the Connacht semi-final. And so they are entering into a bigger and historically more troubling rivalry. For whatever reason, Mayo are comfortable with the idea of playing Roscommon, who havenít won in Castlebar since 1986.

I was playing in that game and it was precisely the kind of shock Iím talking about. Mayo had had a big year in 1985 and we were expected to follow up and then Roscommon just turned us over and ended our summer. But in recent years, the sense of rivalry has been diluted by the fact that Mayo win. The fixture has lost its lustre.

This is partly to do with managers taking mythology out of the equation. In Mayo, for example, the big psychological stumbling block was always Galway. We had this attitude that we could take on anyone but that Galway would somehow get the better of us. In my playing career, we met Galway in seven championship games. I think itís fair to say we probably had a better team in five of those years. But we lost every time.
Received knowledge

It was part of our received knowledge that Mayo teams struggled with Galway. In contrast, Roscommon seemed to love playing Galway. I couldnít get over it. They relished it Ė they always sensed they had a chance and that definitely fed into the approach in 2017 when I was managing them.

The attitude becomes embedded in the county itself. It is inherited and passed down through kitchen table conversations and stories told in the car and in the pub. Itís a national thing. You hear Donegal people say, Ďoh, we struggle with Monaghaní. Or Monaghan dreading playing Tyrone. It becomes part of the narrative of these local rivalries. And it can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

But the evidence suggests that the combination of mythology and those genuine out-of-the-blue shocks are disappearing from the game. There is so much information now and preparation and the stronger teams so well drilled that games tend to run along anticipated lines. Teams and managers like to talk about one game at a time. But any team with ambition plans for the bigger picture and takes certain chances with selection and takes calculated gambles.
Offaly put it up to Meath for a long time before Meath struck for a crucial goal. The former keen Dublin-Meath rivalry is moribund, at least for now. Photograph: Lorraine OíSullivan/Inpho Offaly put it up to Meath for a long time before Meath struck for a crucial goal. The former keen Dublin-Meath rivalry is moribund, at least for now. Photograph: Lorraine OíSullivan/Inpho 
Teams are starting to win the games they should be winning. The shock factor is being eliminated from the equation. You play correctly and take care of business and then all attention goes to the fixture that you know will make or break your championship. For the few years I was in Roscommon, trying to convince the squad that Leitrim was not a key rival was a tricky piece of psychology.

Perhaps in their fatherís era it had been a true rivalry but now it was a ticket to the semi-final. And that is not to be disrespectful to Leitrim, itís just that the record book points to the fact that Roscommon win these games Ė often overwhelmingly. So it went on Sunday.

Ebbing away

And the pattern is being repeated. Rivalries are disappearing. Dublin-Meath is over Ė at least for now. Kerry and Cork is not a rivalry, at least for the present time. Mayo and Galway has never been more alive. But Tyrone and Armagh is nothing like the contest it was a decade ago. The only theatre still sustaining the tradition of the shock in the championship is Ulster. But even there, Tyrone and Donegal and Monaghan have come to dominate the silverware since Armaghís golden era came to a close in 2006.

So the tension and drama of these provincial days is slowly ebbing away. And it is hard to see how it is going to re-establish itself. There were 8,061 people in Hyde Park on Sunday, a nice crowd but probably 4,000 less than would have turned up when the provincial championship games were the only show in town.

They are becoming diluted for sure. And it is only going one way. Therein lies one of the linchpins of the provincial championship. This has to be of significant concern not just to the provincial councils but also the custodians of the GAA.

In some ways, this is terrible to see. But if these rivalries have lost their electricity, whether real or imagined, then it is becoming increasingly clear the provincial championships are reaching the end of the line.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on May 14, 2019, 09:29:13 AM
when you take away local rivalries in the GAA you lose a lot of your core support. club games are built on local rivalries
and you are relying on 'customers' or event junkies to fill the void
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 14, 2019, 10:35:26 AM
A tiered championship is not the answer.

the gaa has to decide what it wants and then it can decide on the format.

for me i want a knockout championship, open draw championship (not against some form of seeding), league football in the summer. i could take or leave the provincials. get rid of fbd/obyrne etc.

aim is for min 12 games max 18 games per team per year. majority against teams around each others level. run all 3 concurrently or at least championship and league.

All very good but the highlighted ideas if implemented would leave little or no space on the calendar for club football and hurling.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 11:12:06 AM
Is there something to be said for another mass a boycott by teams and fans? Maybe thatíll make the head honchos sit up and take notice.


?????????

Anyway
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-championship-plans-to-be-put-to-management-committee-38109439.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 11:37:24 AM
2 tiers would be enough; play both finals on the same day, and move the minor final. It would give the lesser counties a realistic goal. The same could be done for hurling BTW

They'll never move the minor final, because that would impact the strongest counties.

They've had 14 years to do it for hurling since the Christy Ring Cup was started and they never bothered.

Initially the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cups were played at 2pm prior to the two AI hurling semi-finals (the minors played at 12.30 IIRC) and it really was a boost to the likes of ourselves and Westmeath in the first one to be played on such an occasion, but hurling man Nicky Rackard moved them from that date to an obscure date in July and it hasn't been changed since.
The cķnt presented the previous years Down hurlers their NHL Div2 medals in Newry a few months before as he was canvassing for votes and if we'd known then what we do now he should have been booted down the road.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 14, 2019, 12:24:48 PM

Initially the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cups were played at 2pm prior to the two AI hurling semi-finals (the minors played at 12.30 IIRC) and it really was a boost to the likes of ourselves and Westmeath in the first one to be played on such an occasion, but hurling man Nicky Rackard moved them from that date to an obscure date in July and it hasn't been changed since.
The cķnt presented the previous years Down hurlers their NHL Div2 medals in Newry a few months before as he was canvassing for votes and if we'd known then what we do now he should have been booted down the road.

Nicky Rackard died over 40 years ago. If you're going to impugn someone, at least don't confuse them with a dead man.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 12:35:49 PM

Initially the Christy Ring and Nicky Rackard cups were played at 2pm prior to the two AI hurling semi-finals (the minors played at 12.30 IIRC) and it really was a boost to the likes of ourselves and Westmeath in the first one to be played on such an occasion, but hurling man Nicky Brennan moved them from that date to an obscure date in July and it hasn't been changed since.
The cķnt presented the previous years Down hurlers their NHL Div2 medals in Newry a few months before as he was canvassing for votes and if we'd known then what we do now he should have been booted down the road.

Nicky Rackard died over 40 years ago. If you're going to impugn someone, at least don't confuse them with a dead man.

Apologies there. My ire is to be directed at a Mr Nicky Brennan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 14, 2019, 12:55:04 PM
Apologies there. My ire is to be directed at a Mr Nicky Brennan.
Fair enough.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 14, 2019, 01:50:17 PM
when you take away local rivalries in the GAA you lose a lot of your core support. club games are built on local rivalries
and you are relying on 'customers' or event junkies to fill the void

Your biggest rivals are the team you are trying to beat. Tyrone used to rival Armagh and Derry. Now it's Dublin and Kerry. That's a fact. Teams playing at their level going out to win. That's what everyone wants and anyone against that is against the GAA, Irish people and Mankind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 14, 2019, 02:38:21 PM
when you take away local rivalries in the GAA you lose a lot of your core support. club games are built on local rivalries
and you are relying on 'customers' or event junkies to fill the void

Your biggest rivals are the team you are trying to beat. Tyrone used to rival Armagh and Derry. Now it's Dublin and Kerry. That's a fact. Teams playing at their level going out to win. That's what everyone wants and anyone against that is against the GAA, Irish people and Mankind.
Down play Armagh this Sunday in first round of the championship.  It will probably be close to a sell out in Newry.  They could call the second/third tier competition the Sean O'Neill cup and I don't think there would be a big crowd in Newry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 14, 2019, 03:38:27 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 14, 2019, 03:47:07 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Just the mammies.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 15, 2019, 09:36:50 AM
I think we can all agree that John Duggan's suggestion is the worst yet, although there's a possibility it's tongue in cheek

https://www.todayfm.com/sport/opinion-fixing-the-gaelic-football-championship-is-not-rocket-science-858992
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 15, 2019, 09:47:56 AM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Fcuk all do in Mayo anyway Ross.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 15, 2019, 10:59:50 AM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Fcuk all do in Mayo anyway Ross.

Iím sure the players feel their club intermediate and junior titles are worthless because they werenít shown on tv.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 15, 2019, 01:00:25 PM
I've never seen a sad or disappointed Junior or Inter Championship winner.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 15, 2019, 01:10:42 PM
I think we can all agree that John Duggan's suggestion is the worst yet, although there's a possibility it's tongue in cheek

https://www.todayfm.com/sport/opinion-fixing-the-gaelic-football-championship-is-not-rocket-science-858992

Unbelievable. Sounds like a guy who never stepped foot on a sodden club pitch in the winter nor even a windswept county game terrace in February or March.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Mourne Red on May 15, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
Do people attend Inter and Junior Club games in Down?

Just the mammies.

I wish, not even my mum goes to my games
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 15, 2019, 02:36:32 PM
I think we can all agree that John Duggan's suggestion is the worst yet, although there's a possibility it's tongue in cheek

https://www.todayfm.com/sport/opinion-fixing-the-gaelic-football-championship-is-not-rocket-science-858992

Unbelievable. Sounds like a guy who never stepped foot on a sodden club pitch in the winter nor even a windswept county game terrace in February or March.
And says that we should leave September alone for club activity, but that the All-Ireland finals would be on the second weekend in September  ???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LaurelEye on May 16, 2019, 02:50:01 AM



"Curtain-raiser to an All-Ireland quarter-final".

Out of sight, out of mind, really.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LaurelEye on May 16, 2019, 02:55:19 AM
I've never seen a sad or disappointed Junior or Inter Championship winner.

I remember the last time we won Intermediate being lectured by know-it-alls on how we should stay Intermediate to "have our own little championship that we could win". Thankfully, we had higher ambitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 16, 2019, 08:53:18 AM



"Curtain-raiser to an All-Ireland quarter-final".

Out of sight, out of mind, really.

The EFL playoffs the last couple of nights show how to do a second-tier championship with drama.
If we hold the AI senior final third sunday in September, there shouldn't be a problem doing an Intermediate final the Sunday before in one of the other massive stadiums the GAA have.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 09:06:46 AM
What makes an Intermediate club final or those English soccer play offs is the prize on offer i.e Promotion to the next grade.
Current proposals for a stand alone "tier 2" are in effect Tommy Murphy take 2 - with a bit of pre thinking this time rather than the back of SeŠn Kelly's envelope.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2019, 09:25:04 AM
I'm amazed at how many people try to compare these proposals with the club tiered system or, now, the EFL Championship.

The major difference is that all 32 counties have for over a hundred years been allowed to play in this current format. Half of them are now, in a roundabout way, being relegated from this structure when they haven't warranted relegation because no relegation has ever existed.

If the stakeholders from these counties want to go down this road then that's fair enough, I think they should be allowed to, once they all have their say; players, supporters etc.

But the whole "it works at club level" bit is irrelevant for me as you're not comparing like with like.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 16, 2019, 09:31:18 AM
It's going to happen. All the D3 and D4 counties need to get promoted or do well in their province if they want to be at the top table. For all the talk of equal promotion of a tier 2 competition - it won't happen. Maybe for the first year or two but it will fade thereafter.

Will be interesting to see how/when the poaching of players from the have nots to the haves kicks in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 16, 2019, 09:34:16 AM
What makes an Intermediate club final or those English soccer play offs is the prize on offer i.e Promotion to the next grade.
Current proposals for a stand alone "tier 2" are in effect Tommy Murphy take 2 - with a bit of pre thinking this time rather than the back of SeŠn Kelly's envelope.
It's more the idea of holding it on a weekend or day by itself, rather than the curtain raiser to an AI Senior final (in the minor slot) which I was getting at. Needs to be an event in its own right. With a prize at the end, like you say.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 09:46:45 AM
To be realistic these finals will be played on a wet friday evening in Ballymcnowhere in front to the players families and some lad with an iphone in case there's a row for SM likes.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on May 16, 2019, 10:33:47 AM
I'm amazed at how many people try to compare these proposals with the club tiered system or, now, the EFL Championship.

The major difference is that all 32 counties have for over a hundred years been allowed to play in this current format. Half of them are now, in a roundabout way, being relegated from this structure when they haven't warranted relegation because no relegation has ever existed.

If the stakeholders from these counties want to go down this road then that's fair enough, I think they should be allowed to, once they all have their say; players, supporters etc.

But the whole "it works at club level" bit is irrelevant for me as you're not comparing like with like.

That horse has already bolted when a lot of these same counties voted for the tiering in the hurling championship.

They'd be hypocrites to then not vote for tiering in the football.

But learn lessons from where hurling went wrong and ensure it's hard written into the competition that the finals are played on the AI semi-final days.

The tiering in the hurling was brilliant until they moved us out of Croke Park on a big occasion
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 10:41:51 AM
All the National Finals of all tiers and none should be played in Croke Park.
And admission prices should be reduced to encourage people to attend.
Ä25 for Ring/Rackard/Meagher Finals is appalling and results in around 3k attendances annually.
Now if it was Ä10 adults and 1Ä kids....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 16, 2019, 10:44:05 AM
Quote

That horse has already bolted when a lot of these same counties voted for the tiering in the hurling championship.

They'd be hypocrites to then not vote for tiering in the football.

Hypocrites? Hardly. Hurling has always had tiers, because of the vast gulfs in standards between the best half dozen or so, the next half dozen and so on, that would turn almost all games between counties in different grades to cricket score debacles. Football has never had that problem.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 16, 2019, 10:46:30 AM
All the National Finals of all tiers and none should be played in Croke Park.
And admission prices should be reduced to encourage people to attend.
Ä25 for Ring/Rackard/Meagher Finals is appalling and results in around 3k attendances annually.
Now if it was Ä10 adults and 1Ä kids....

The attraction of playing a game in an almost-deserted Croke Park escapes me.

And, for almost all counties, the admission price into Croke Park is only part of the cost of attending. It would cost me at least Ä40 to travel to a Ring/Rackard/Meagher Final in Croke Park even if there was free admission.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 16, 2019, 12:29:13 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.
The supposed panacea being Brexit itself, or EU membership?  :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 12:57:05 PM


A number of strident voices 
GAA Central Council.?
Managers and Players from the weaker Counties?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 01:27:29 PM


A number of strident voices 
GAA Central Council.?
Managers and Players from the weaker Counties?

No. Those are the whipped up people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 02:01:56 PM
But you O knowledgeable one..... know best.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 16, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2019, 02:32:59 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.
If the disenchantment exists to the level you imply then fair enough, a change is needed. Is this the change that's needed? That's a different question. Are Wicklow, London and Waterford players going to think they can now win this particular trophy with Division 3 teams involved? Will we have to revisit this in a few years to make a third and fourth tier and effectively have a duplicate of the league?

Also, maybe getting the big draw and playing out of their skins is more appealing to teams from the lower divisions, I don't know. What says the GPA members?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 16, 2019, 02:40:11 PM
But you O knowledgeable one..... know best.

I see what you did there.... very clever. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 16, 2019, 04:03:55 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.
Why not both?
We already have the Super 8s, why can't we extend the same group system across two tiers of 16 teams or four tiers of 8? Is it for the best that Derry's summer is over if they lose a preliminary round Ulster game and a first round qualifier, so they basically don't play any football in the summer at all?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on May 16, 2019, 04:14:38 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

Is there a 2 tiered proposal out there that includes removing the provincial Championships ? 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 16, 2019, 04:16:45 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones.

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

It's the way i see it also.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 16, 2019, 04:51:37 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.
Thanks for the summary.

If a Division 3 or 4 team do reach a provincial semi-final (impossible, I know) in Proposal 1 does the lowest team in Division 2 then get knocked down to the second tier championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 16, 2019, 05:10:58 PM
I presume you mean reach a Provincial Final?
As far as I know Tier 2 would go  ahead with 15 teams..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 16, 2019, 05:43:20 PM
This debate is strikingly similar to the Brexit fiasco.

A number of strident voices whipping up support for an idea as a panacea to perceived inadequacies in the GAA with absolutely no consideration of what the long term consequences will be or even any acknowledgement that there might be negatives associated with the idea.

So we continue with the current fiasco where the strong get stronger and the weak have nothing to play for apart from the dream of getting a big draw and playing out of their skin to keep the defeat in single figures. Anyone who can't see the many negatives with the current setup isn't looking at what's happening and the disenchantment among county players and supporters outside the top 5 or 6 teams.

So you would have been happy enough with Derry playing Wexford in a Junior championship on sunday past rather than Tyrone in the Ulster championship?

Are you making the argument that tiering will help the weaker teams? I am firmly of the opinion that it will be the last nail in the coffin for weaker counties to the benefit of the stronger ones. 

NO-ONE advocating tiering has ever pointed out the possible downsides to a new system.

Yes, Iíd have been very happy for Derry to be playing in a championship in which theyíd a reasonable chance of progress and ultimate success. Then just like at club level if we were to win weíd move up to the next level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on May 16, 2019, 10:08:23 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 17, 2019, 12:19:27 PM
For the benefit of those who obviously don't read newspapers or who have no notions of what is happening in GAA world..
The current proposals for a 2nd tier include all Counties playing in their Provincial Championships.
These proposals* (2) are being considered by the 16 D3 and D4 Counties with a view to a motion for the Special Congress in Autumn.
We may all have our own ideas on any new type of graded Championships or we may want to leave things as they are but the above is what's happening in the real World.

Someone mentioned the GPA - it seems most of  their members from the weaker Counties favour a 2nd Tier competition as they'd like to play in a Summer Competition they could entertain a hope of winning.

* 1- All D3 and D4 teams who don't reach a Provincial Final enter the Tier 2. (D3 will include the 2 teams relegated from D2 in that tears NFL)
2 - As at present with all teams entering the Qualifiers , then D3 and D4 teams that get knocked out in Round 1 or 2 enter the Tier 2.

That'd be the North American championship then!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 17, 2019, 12:33:43 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 17, 2019, 12:59:21 PM
It's going to happen. All the D3 and D4 counties need to get promoted or do well in their province if they want to be at the top table. For all the talk of equal promotion of a tier 2 competition - it won't happen. Maybe for the first year or two but it will fade thereafter.

Will be interesting to see how/when the poaching of players from the have nots to the haves kicks in.

This would never happen in Kildare but it's a very valid and excellent point I suspect very few have thought of. It will happen.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 17, 2019, 01:14:11 PM
If you want a second tier competition, here's one way of doing it.

Play provincial championships as now. Winners get into All Ireland Quarter Finals.
Div 1 & 2 teams play over 3 weeks, either a league (4 groups of 4, winner goes through to AIQFs) or knockout with last 4 going through.
If a county qualifies for AIQFs by winning both provincial and second stage, they skip the AIQFs and go straight into AI semi final.

Div 3 & 4 teams go into second tier competition - '4 groups of 4' league or knockout as far as a final.

In theory a Div 3/4 team could win both tiers. Stagger the competitions by a fortnight to allow for this possibility.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 17, 2019, 01:43:43 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 17, 2019, 01:45:11 PM
If you want a second tier competition, here's one way of doing it.

Play provincial championships as now. Winners get into All Ireland Quarter Finals.
Div 1 & 2 teams play over 3 weeks, either a league (4 groups of 4, winner goes through to AIQFs) or knockout with last 4 going through.
If a county qualifies for AIQFs by winning both provincial and second stage, they skip the AIQFs and go straight into AI semi final.

Div 3 & 4 teams go into second tier competition - '4 groups of 4' league or knockout as far as a final.

In theory a Div 3/4 team could win both tiers. Stagger the competitions by a fortnight to allow for this possibility.

Fair enough, but there are only so many Sundays. The club wouldn't see their county players for a while. And there would be bother there with that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 17, 2019, 02:02:20 PM
Fair enough, but there are only so many Sundays. The club wouldn't see their county players for a while. And there would be bother there with that.

Agree 100%. My idea is aimed more at those who seem hell-bent on a new county competition without any regard for clubs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 17, 2019, 03:02:04 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them.
And a stopped clock is right twice a day.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 17, 2019, 03:12:31 PM
Division 4 teams have played 185 championship games in the 9 years from 2010 to 2018.

They have won 52 games in that time.

2 games against Division 1 opposition.
6 games against Division 2 opposition.
14 games against Division 3 opposition.
27 games against Division 4 opposition.
Plus 3 games against New York.

8 games won against top 16 teams versus 41 games won against bottom 16 teams (if you include New York it goes up to 44)
Very interesting.
So a 7.5% win rate against Division 3 teams then?

That is a completely meaningless set of statistic unless you also know how many games they played at each level eg Div 4 teams may only have played div 1 teams twice and therefore have a 100% record against them.
Exactly my point.

They beat Division 1 teams on very few occasions and they also beat Division 3 teams on very few occasions. So what?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 17, 2019, 10:58:39 PM
Thereís a big gap between division 3 and 4 though. Division 2 to 1 seems a jump whereas 3 to 2 not as much of a jump. As an Antrim fan it feels like we mainly play the same teams year in year out as itís just yo yo down there barring Tipperary who have improved a lot(barring last week)and Louth seem to go through phases of dragging themselves out of 4. Sligo come and go too. Limerick, Antrim, Wicklow, London, Wexford now, Leitrim, Carlow all regulars. Championship performance generally reflect this too bar limerick last week.

Division 4 pace is so far behind 1 itís like a different game. Not as bad as the hurling but the likelihood of shocks getting less. I would say though that to me the limerick result was a big shock last week so you will get exceptions.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on May 18, 2019, 11:11:05 AM
Antrim really is an outlier that should be at least in the middle rank rather than the lowest rank of teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 19, 2019, 11:22:46 AM
Not too many in Breffni Park last night wanting to drop the Ulster Championship. Beating Monaghan means infinitely more to Cavan than doing likewise to say Galway or Kildare ever would.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 19, 2019, 12:19:06 PM
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oakleaf93 on May 19, 2019, 09:00:05 PM
We need a two tier championship so we don't have to watch a div 2 v div 3 rivalsl play out a tight game in front of 15,000 people
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 19, 2019, 09:12:36 PM
Another who hasn't read the outline of the current proposals that I posted earlier in this thread.
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on May 20, 2019, 07:58:47 AM
No second tier because it most likely would go the way of the lower tier hurling competitions, i.e. good tight games but no massive interest in them or coverage. Something needs to be done though to stop Galway or Mayo strolling into provincial finals leaving them at most one game from the super 8ís, or Kerry beating Clare and Cork and ending up in the AIQFís. Compare that with say Armagh or Down who in any given year could potentially have to beat 3 Division 1 teams who are capable of reaching at least an All Ireland semi in Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal to win Ulster. Play the provincials yes, even though 2 of them are forgone conclusions, but they should not be linked to what happens later in the summer especially when the number of counties in each isnít even equal. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 20, 2019, 09:37:20 AM
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?

Quite a number of people, including here, want to play them in wintry February and March as some sort of glorified McKenna Cup, which amounts to the same thing.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 20, 2019, 10:17:31 AM
No second tier because it most likely would go the way of the lower tier hurling competitions, i.e. good tight games but no massive interest in them or coverage. Something needs to be done though to stop Galway or Mayo strolling into provincial finals leaving them at most one game from the super 8ís, or Kerry beating Clare and Cork and ending up in the AIQFís. Compare that with say Armagh or Down who in any given year could potentially have to beat 3 Division 1 teams who are capable of reaching at least an All Ireland semi in Tyrone, Monaghan and Donegal to win Ulster. Play the provincials yes, even though 2 of them are forgone conclusions, but they should not be linked to what happens later in the summer especially when the number of counties in each isnít even equal.

The provincials have been undervalued by the qualifiers. Itís nice to win but itís not the end of the world for those with AI aspirations, if you donít.

So, if you donít have a link from provincials to AI series (you sort of donít really now anyway),whatís the point? Teams would then use it as a warm up for the cíship. In the same way they do in the League now. It would go the same way as the Ulster Hurling cíship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 20, 2019, 11:17:27 AM
And who exactly is proposing to drop the Ulster Championship?

Quite a number of people, including here, want to play them in wintry February and March as some sort of glorified McKenna Cup, which amounts to the same thing.
Nobody officially in GAA world ..... just us blatherers here :D

No point bringing hurling into the argument.
You'd think Louth v Kilkenny used to play each  in Leinster and get half an hour on the Sunday game.....
The tiers suit hurling because of the vast differences in standards and the miniscule number if hurlers in half the Counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 20, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Westmeath chairman Billy Foley got his view across on the match day programme on Saturday. Food for thought there.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 20, 2019, 03:27:01 PM
Fair play to him. A lot of what he highlights also applies beyond hurling and football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 20, 2019, 04:36:07 PM
Fair play to him. A lot of what he highlights also applies beyond hurling and football.
Better than what was in our programme yesterday, a pair of articles related to tiering the championships, Croke Park now it has settled itself on pursuing the tiered system in football appear to be using its match programmes to push that agenda as well.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on May 20, 2019, 04:53:01 PM
Fair play to him. A lot of what he highlights also applies beyond hurling and football.
Better than what was in our programme yesterday, a pair of articles related to tiering the championships, Croke Park now it has settled itself on pursuing the tiered system in football appear to be using its match programmes to push that agenda as well.

It a big country wide road show done by HQ to get this football tiered system in place as soon as possible. The same thing was done to scrap the U21 championship and it was replaced by a poorer competition where the public have less interest in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 20, 2019, 05:37:01 PM
Most teams, managers and fans wonít be in favour but theyíll just follow what HQ tells them

So if most arenít in favour of tier 2, donít participate. You canít have a competition if thereís no teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 20, 2019, 05:50:17 PM
So if most arenít in favour of tier 2, donít participate. You canít have a competition if thereís no teams.

That's exactly what happened the Tommy Murphy Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 20, 2019, 06:22:30 PM
Westmeath chairman Billy Foley got his view across on the match day programme on Saturday. Food for thought there.



Totally agree with his sentiments. The second tier competition in hurling is a huge success for players, coaches and supporters. His only quibble is the lack of media coverage which is disappointing. While itís disappointing it doesnít stop the competition from being hugely enjoyable and satisfying for players and supporters because theyíre at the right level to develop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 20, 2019, 06:29:52 PM
Is the priority good competitive championships or media coverage?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 20, 2019, 06:32:43 PM
Is the priority good competitive championships or media coverage?
Depends who you're asking.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 20, 2019, 06:41:53 PM
It's not just the lack of media coverage that is a problem for the hurling tiers but loads of good players from these tiered competitions in hurling don't tog out for their counties and the lack of support that goes to Christy Ring, Nicky Rackard and Lory Meagher cup games  is low so i don't think that type of environment is something that needs to be copied in football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 20, 2019, 06:57:38 PM
Whatís the ticket prices for Ring, Rackard etc?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 20, 2019, 07:29:10 PM
Very few ever went to watch the Counties currently  in the Ring Rackard or Meagher Cups playing hurling.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 21, 2019, 10:19:14 AM
Westmeath chairman Billy Foley got his view across on the match day programme on Saturday. Food for thought there.



The line about when the controversy ends they will lose interest encapsulates everything that is wrong with this debate and could equally be applied to the situation on here. Keyboard warriors bandwaggoning onto a cause and championing it until they see achieve 'success' for their 1 eyed point of view. Then move on to the next "issue".

It has nearly got to the stage where the GAA is being run by twitter.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 12:30:11 PM
Nothing like a good rant ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 21, 2019, 12:43:17 PM
What the hell do people* actually want?
Tiered championships where the B winners get into the last 8?

League and championship tied together - staggered rounds FA Cup like?

Division 3/4 automatically enter tier 2 even though they might win and still be in those two divisions I.e not promoted to division 2?

Tier 2 automatically get promoted to tier 1 even though they may be stuck in Division 3/4?

Three tiers?

Four tiers - saving drawing the line and make the league the be all and end all - home and away etc?

Or something else?

*  Those of you who want a tiered championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 21, 2019, 01:01:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on May 21, 2019, 01:52:50 PM
Was listening to the Sligo V Galway game on the radio last Sunday.

The Commentator was describing how Sligo were lined out ultra-defensively in the first half that was despite playing at home and with the wind.

I couldnít help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.
Keep the provincials if that what it takes, but surely there must be at least a better option up for discussion.

Not picking on Sligo, a very proud footballing county, that does not have a huge Gaelic football base.

As I mentioned on a previous occasions, it will require a multi facet effort to ďrightĒ the wrongs of the last ten years in terms of money being spent on player and more importantly county development. The GAA in Croke Park , need to flood division 3 and 4 teams with coachís, and implement a use them or lose them attitude.

Surely there are enough administrative people in the GAA to figure this out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 21, 2019, 02:30:43 PM
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know, the league is also meant to be the main competition where "weaker" teams develop and improve.  Championship use to be an old fashion out knock competition but with all the chopping and changing of recent years you now have the introduction of a back door taking the edge off provincial championship games and the daftness of group stage for the last eight that more less stopped one of the best things about any competition which is the story of the underdog.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on May 21, 2019, 03:08:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 21, 2019, 03:31:42 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 21, 2019, 03:50:01 PM
Was listening to the Sligo V Galway game on the radio last Sunday.

The Commentator was describing how Sligo were lined out ultra-defensively in the first half that was despite playing at home and with the wind.

I couldnít help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.
Keep the provincials if that what it takes, but surely there must be at least a better option up for discussion.

Not picking on Sligo, a very proud footballing county, that does not have a huge Gaelic football base.

As I mentioned on a previous occasions, it will require a multi facet effort to ďrightĒ the wrongs of the last ten years in terms of money being spent on player and more importantly county development. The GAA in Croke Park , need to flood division 3 and 4 teams with coachís, and implement a use them or lose them attitude.

Surely there are enough administrative people in the GAA to figure this out.


Galway and Sligo set up the exact same way. It was like for like. In both halves of the game. Galway pushed up on Sligo's kickout, Sligo didn't push up on Galway's - that was essentially the only difference in setup. To me it's not "ultra" defensive - that's when you lose the ball and everyone just turns and runs back to their 45 which I understand Down did for large periods on Sunday. A lot of commentators don't understand what's happening in front of their eyes.

I also am unsure that more coaches is the answer. In the smaller counties it's about maximising your resources and bringing every player along as far as you can - not picking groups and working on them. A rising tide lifts all boats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on May 21, 2019, 04:57:50 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
So the Inter champs should just stay at inter and not go up to senior the following year? 🤔

That would be ridiculous.

They donít need to aim to be the best senior team in year 1, but they do aim to be better than some of the incumbents and then improve again the following year. It does happen that a team could come from 9th - 12th one year and champions the next, but itís very rare across most sports.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 21, 2019, 05:22:33 PM
Like the TV show ....ask 100 people..... you'll get all the above Farr and maybe 9 or 10 more. ;D
As I posted last week and reported in papers there are 2 proposals on a table somewhere between Central Council and the 16 D3/4 Counties.
Presumably if they reach a consensus it will be a motion for Congress.

* My choice would be 3 tiers like the Club Championships but it could be staggered to allow Inter and Junior winners get to play in the Senior Championship.
Plus I'd keep the Provincials as they are with everyone partaking.

An immediate gateway into Senior for current year would spoil it. You want the Inter All Ireland champions' players and fans to celebrate like clubs do when winning inter titles. Joy! On the beer for a week. Talk it about it for ages.  Annoy the feck out of the neighbours, etc. Winning it is the end goal. And next year they get to tackle the senior boys. Try to survive next year and build momentum to hopefully challenge in the future.

Senior quarter-final 2 or 3 weeks later means little/no celebrating and almost certain doom and belittles the cup that was won.

And only one up - one down. Has to be hard to get promoted. Makes it all the more valuable when achieved. And makes the lower teams in senior fight like billyo to stay up. So even a "we stayed up" can be regarded as a relative success like a Brighton/Southampton type scenario.
But don't we want teams in a competition where they have an realistic chance of winning?
So the Inter champs should just stay at inter and not go up to senior the following year? 🤔

That would be ridiculous.

They donít need to aim to be the best senior team in year 1, but they do aim to be better than some of the incumbents and then improve again the following year. It does happen that a team could come from 9th - 12th one year and champions the next, but itís very rare across most sports.
My comment was tongue in cheek; it's the line being thrown around with very little foundation, see Wicklow, London and Waterford for example.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 22, 2019, 01:06:45 PM
I couldnít help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.

Ah I dunno. Maybe some of our Sligo folks on the board could chip in - but I'd have thought that having the chance of knocking yer neighbour off his perch would still be one worth having.

Does it not make the Connacht Championship win of 2007 all the sweeter?

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If I'd my way, I'd go back to straight knockout and do away with the qualifiers and bin the subpar8s (which was always a stupid idea). If the teams that are beat in provincial R1/R2 games are put into another competition then so be it.

Bottom line is - a variation on this tiered system has been tried before - the Tommy Murphy was not well followed. Those clamouring for change would do well to learn from history (recent history at that) and not merely brush it aside with "ahh, but 'promote' it right" - whatever the f**k that means. Big games by-and-by large sell themselves.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 22, 2019, 01:27:31 PM
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know,

Most team sports are professional, where the league format is ultimately how wages are paid. Ireland is too small to sustain professional GAA leagues, along with a club scene.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 22, 2019, 01:53:17 PM
Most team sports has leagues that are important and grabs the public and medias interest why the GAA can't do likely I don't know,

Most team sports are professional, where the league format is ultimately how wages are paid. Ireland is too small to sustain professional GAA leagues, along with a club scene.

My point is leagues are important in other team sports be it professional or not and NFL is the best format the GAA have and those at the top should put more time and energy into to making that more important than ever changing the championship to see what will work.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 22, 2019, 02:12:42 PM
I couldnít help but wonder would Sligo at the current time not be better off playing in a second tier championship, where they could go out and play a normal game of Gaelic football without the concern of getting hammered. i.e. the players would probably enjoy playing.

Ah I dunno. Maybe some of our Sligo folks on the board could chip in - but I'd have thought that having the chance of knocking yer neighbour off his perch would still be one worth having.

Does it not make the Connacht Championship win of 2007 all the sweeter?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I'd my way, I'd go back to straight knockout and do away with the qualifiers and bin the subpar8s (which was always a stupid idea). If the teams that are beat in provincial R1/R2 games are put into another competition then so be it.

Bottom line is - a variation on this tiered system has been tried before - the Tommy Murphy was not well followed. Those clamouring for change would do well to learn from history (recent history at that) and not merely brush it aside with "ahh, but 'promote' it right" - whatever the f**k that means. Big games by-and-by large sell themselves.
The Tommy Murphy was a losers cup, any tiered completion has to be the only show in town for those entering it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 22, 2019, 07:10:51 PM
The Tommy Murphy was a losers cup, any tiered completion has to be the only show in town for those entering it.

Which means doing away with the provincial championships. While that might be OK in Leinster 'cos the GAA have f**ked everyone over except the Dubs - that doesn't mean the rest aren't at least semi-competitive. Out in Connacht, every team in the last 25 years has won it.

Munster isn't as competitive and Leinster has went to crap - but even it has 6 different winners in the last 25 years.

Junior/Intermediate/Senior works at club level because you still have representatives from each county.


If - for the sake of argument - on the inter county scene in Ulster you had 1 junior county, 5 intermediate and 3 senior - then what kinda junior championship would you have? Pretty difficult.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 22, 2019, 10:16:52 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 23, 2019, 07:35:10 AM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 09:32:25 AM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 09:36:35 AM
You already have the "Big 8s" or "Soooooper 8" ale Marty M.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 09:44:28 AM
Tiering is just another step on the road to professionalism for a select number of teams. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 09:46:23 AM
Hasn't happened in Hurling ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 23, 2019, 10:33:36 AM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 10:49:19 AM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.

There will be, at the very least, 4 teams in Super 8 who have no meaningful and realistic chance of winning. Same forat least half the teams in intermediate and there will be some almighty pastings handed out to the lower end of the Junior.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 23, 2019, 10:59:49 AM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.

You talk about mismatches. The Super 8ís last year involved the top 8 teams. And results involved two near 20 point defeats for Roscommon.

The football cíship is monotonous as it is with constant fixtures involving Mayo Dublin Kerry Tyrone Galway. Limiting Sam to 8 teams will make the senior cíship an absolute farce.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 11:08:11 AM
They've limited Liam to 10 +2 teams and the excitement levels are gone through the roof.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 23, 2019, 11:11:07 AM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oakleaflad on May 23, 2019, 11:12:05 AM
They've limited Liam to 10 +2 teams and the excitement levels are gone through the roof.
That excitement is to do with the number of realistically possible winners, not the total number of teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 23, 2019, 11:24:27 AM
All this talk of different tiers in Hurling as if this is something new! Hurling has always been tiered. There are up to 15 counties that I've never seen play a game in the McCarthy Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 23, 2019, 11:25:42 AM
They've limited Liam to 10 +2 teams and the excitement levels are gone through the roof.
Because the competitiveness level within the top table in hurling as is even as it has probably ever been. 9 of the 10 teams can feel capable of beating whatever opposition they face, and you really couldn't confidently say who'll come out on top come August. When the new system came into place last year it could easily have been felt that Limerick would prop up the Munster group, things turned out quite differently. Likewise this year there were plenty of questions about Tipperary from the spring and last year, and two games in and suddenly they're the team in form. Go back about a decade with the current setup, when Kilkenny were well out in front with only Tipperary being serious challengers to them, and the excitement might have been a good deal more limited.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 23, 2019, 11:34:03 AM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.

What about groups of 4 and have 8 tiers, these would all definitely be competitive.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 23, 2019, 11:35:21 AM
All this talk of different tiers in Hurling as if this is something new! Hurling has always been tiered. There are up to 15 counties that I've never seen play a game in the McCarthy Cup.
This is it, there was the Junior competition for many counties but it didn't seem the most structured of competitions. What the Ring/Rackard/Meagher has done is at least provide well structured summer (well early summer anyway) competitions for the counties involved, but it hasn't necessarily brought many of them on at all, and the increasing marginalisation of them by Croke Park doesn't make those of us who will be cut adrift in a similar scenario in football any more welcoming of the prospect.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 23, 2019, 12:05:03 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.

What about groups of 4 and have 8 tiers, these would all definitely be competitive.

Hilarious. Thereís a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry donít have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone donít have to play errigal Ciaran. Thereís no reason it canít work in county.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 12:15:50 PM
Just leave it as it is and start at focusing on making the weaker counties competitive. Fermanagh is a prime example. Made up of mostly water and the rest Protestants, they still manage to get their house in order and play to their potential.

lol Fermanagh have literally never won anything in their history. Theyíve been in 3 ulster championship finals in their 100 years plus. If they were playing in an intermediate championship at the moment they would have a realistic chance of winning it. In the past theyíd have ahd a good chance of winning junior championships. The current system does counties outside the top 5 or 6 teams no favours at all.
So maybe a race for Sam made up of six teams. Could you imagine the excitement? Wall to wall coverage on the telly of the big six playing each other.

The senior championship shold have around 8 teams. The intermediate championship could have 12 teams and the junior championship 12 teams. That way the super 8 could start without all the mismatches before. The other teams could play in a championship which gives them a meaningful and realistic chance to win.
They could break it into groups of 8 make it senior, intermediate, junior and junior B.  The top 8 teams could play each team once in a sort of round robin and then the 2 that finish with the most points play in the final.  The bottom 2 get relegated to the tier below for the following year and the top 2 from the next best teams could get promoted to the division championship above the following year.

What about groups of 4 and have 8 tiers, these would all definitely be competitive.

Hilarious. Thereís a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry donít have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone donít have to play errigal Ciaran. Thereís no reason it canít work in county.
What does "work" mean?

If you mean the games would be more competitive and teams would have a better chance of winning then I'd say you're definitely right.

But as these pages and several other threads have clearly shown, that is not all that matters to all of the people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
All this talk of different tiers in Hurling as if this is something new! Hurling has always been tiered. There are up to 15 counties that I've never seen play a game in the McCarthy Cup.
But but but I thought Louth and Kilkenny used to play before crowds of 10,000 and get loads of newspaper coverage.....

Better put one if these in for the 6 Co lads benefits ;D :D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 23, 2019, 01:26:58 PM
The GAA will be implementing a champions league format in the championship, guaranteed. Because it brings in the most revenue. A straight knockout championship makes no sense to the money men.  Weíve already seen it implemented at Munster and Leinster hurling. Itís just a matter of time.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 01:30:57 PM
Any idea when the world might be ending?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 23, 2019, 01:48:41 PM
Any idea when the world might be ending?

Any day now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on May 23, 2019, 02:04:40 PM
The GAA will be implementing a round robin format in the championship, guaranteed. Because it brings in the most revenue. A straight knockout championship makes no sense to the money men.  Weíve already seen it implemented at Munster and Leinster hurling. Itís just a matter of time.
Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 02:29:41 PM
Already got that for the last 8.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 23, 2019, 03:21:26 PM
The grouping of teams around the same level makes the hurling far more interesting than the football.
If a team is good enough it will get promoted.

Antrim hurlers for example get to compare themselves against their peers. They won't go up until they are good enough.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 23, 2019, 04:50:34 PM
Hilarious. Thereís a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry donít have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone donít have to play errigal Ciaran. Thereís no reason it canít work in county.

'cos you want to beat your neighbours in a match that will invariably be played much closer to both counties than Antrim taking on Tipperary in the Junior Championship.

Hard to have local matches that matter if you aren't even in the same competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 05:01:20 PM
Hilarious. Thereís a model already there in club football which works brilliantly. Senior, intermediate and junior. Ardmore in Derry donít have to play slaughtneil and dregish in Tyrone donít have to play errigal Ciaran. Thereís no reason it canít work in county.

'cos you want to beat your neighbours in a match that will invariably be played much closer to both counties than Antrim taking on Tipperary in the Junior Championship.

Hard to have local matches that matter if you aren't even in the same competition.

After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 23, 2019, 06:08:08 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

Tipp reached a All Ireland Semi Final a couple of years ago, and did quite well in it. I expect they'd react with anger to being dumped into a B competition for the mortal sin of being narrowly relegated to Division 3 earlier this year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on May 23, 2019, 06:25:44 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

Tipp reached a All Ireland Semi Final a couple of years ago, and did quite well in it. I expect they'd react with anger to being dumped into a B competition for the mortal sin of being narrowly relegated to Division 3 earlier this year.

The same Tipp who've been dumped out of Munster @ the first hurdle by Limerick!? A couple of years is a long time in football.

I was quoting GAAGAA's example. IF Tipp were in Div 3 and didn't for example reach their Prov final, then in a tiered setup they shouldn't be near the A competition in that particular year

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 23, 2019, 08:09:12 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

Tipp reached a All Ireland Semi Final a couple of years ago, and did quite well in it. I expect they'd react with anger to being dumped into a B competition for the mortal sin of being narrowly relegated to Division 3 earlier this year.

The same Tipp who've been dumped out of Munster @ the first hurdle by Limerick
!? A couple of years is a long time in football.

I was quoting GAAGAA's example. IF Tipp were in Div 3 and didn't for example reach their Prov final, then in a tiered setup they shouldn't be near the A competition in that particular year
The same Limerick who beat Division 2 Tipperary this year ;)

Point and counterpoint, this is fun.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2019, 08:27:49 PM
 Tipp now classed as D3 per the 2nd tier proposal.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 23, 2019, 08:46:29 PM
After being knocked out of their Provincial Championship, Antrim could very well play Tipp in the same tournament Dublin and Kerry play in with a snowballs chance in hell of winning. Why not play each other in a competition they could win?

You completely miss my point.

Who is gonna watch it? Who will care? Tommy Murphy and the "B" championship before it were not very well attended till the final. How will county boards fund it all on the back of marginal gates?

Are players really gonna knock their pan in training and happily give up a weekend travelling the length of the country for an also-ran tournament? Or would they rather go back to their clubs where they (also) have a chance of winning silverware at that level?


Why is this second tier going to work now whereas the last two attempts at it failed miserably?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on May 24, 2019, 12:19:30 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 24, 2019, 07:22:52 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).

Did the tiering of the hurling championship mean that the support for the weaker counties dwindled? Maybe my memory is playing tricks but I never remember Donegal or Louth hurlers getting massive crowds in the old system. In fact I know a Donegal hurler who loves the new system and treasures his all ireland medal which he won in croke park in front of a decent crowd for a donegal game.

Football is different because every county has a reasonable level of ability and most have a reasonable following. I would ask the question differently. Players from the weaker counties should go to the intermediate and junior clubs in their county and ask the players there how does it feel to have a good run or win a junior/intermediate championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on May 24, 2019, 08:23:55 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).


Good post and I like the idea of going back to Div 1a, 1b, 2a and 2b.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 24, 2019, 08:59:11 AM
Id ask everyone from the smaller counties who are in favour of a 2nd tier to first of all go to their respective county hurling sides and see how a tiered competition actually treats your county. I don't think you should be entitled to proffer the opinion that "things will be better in a tiered championship" until you see how dead, disinterested and deplorable the hurling championship is outside the big 8.

No county outside of Cork, Tipp, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kilkenny, Galway and Wexford has a remotely sizeable supporter base. Enter any of the other 24 counties in Ireland and you'll struggle badly to find a punter who could tell you the result of their hurling teams last outing.

This isn't true of football, even amongst the lowliest of football counties. There remains a sizeable interest in these counties despite year in wilderness without success. This board is living proof of that. Look at how many posters we have from div 3 and 4 teams. Many people bitch and moan about how shite their football teams are today. That's a great thing. The only other hurling team outside those 8 counties that anyone gives a f**k about is Offaly and even that is starting to wane. They're now slipping off into the apathetic silence as Antrim have before them.

The competition structure in hurling has cemented the ascendancy that exists withing hurling not weakened it. Now people are looking to artificially create an ascendancy in football by tiering the championship. I disagree completely with this.

It's not fair to criticise suggestions without offering alternative solutions so I'll say this. I acknowledge a disparity between the top 6 counties in football and the following group. I suggest that part of this is down to the structure of the league which punishes developing teams for advancing from division 2 of the league to the punishing nature of division 1 without any chance of acclimatising to the demands of football at the very top. When division 1A and 1B existed through the 2000's there was much less of a gap between the top sides and the rest. I think now more than ever football would prosper from a return to 1A and 1B status as it would give the chasing pack a chance to test themselves against the top sides and do so in a lower stakes environment. I think the the current system of leagues is very unfair on the Kildare, Roscommon and Cavan panels as they become yo-yo teams between the divisions and is particularly detrimental to their development as challengers to the top sides. The cutthroat nature of division 1 has also put counties like Westmeath, Derry and Down into freefall after a difficult division 1 campaign (2014-2016 where they all finished 8th in div 1).


Good post and I like the idea of going back to Div 1a, 1b, 2a and 2b.
I agree I thought it was a really interesting post.  Division 1A and 1B would give teams like Meath, Cavan etc a better chance to stay in the top division longer and bed in a few players and try to establish themselves at that level, then when it comes to the championship they should have a better chance of giving the better teams a tough game.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 24, 2019, 09:02:51 AM
One way of getting Sligo out of D4 ::)
Nobody outside the hurling Area of Roscommon ever gave two flying fks about the County hurling team and still don't even though they're going well in the Ring this year.
I still recall the photo of them when they won the Rackard Cup a few years ago- they were one happy looking bunch and it obviously meant a lot to them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on May 24, 2019, 11:19:46 AM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sekibanki on May 24, 2019, 11:33:08 AM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.
Five tiers is too many in hurling. The Meagher ends up as a kind of "leftover" tournament of the teams left at the bottom.  They should look to merge it with the Rackard.
Maybe increase the number of teams in the Joe McDonagh if the no. of teams per tier needs evened out, but I don't really see than much difference in a twelve-team Rackard cup and and eight-team one.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 25, 2019, 08:18:31 PM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.

What was the point of that Tyrone Antrim game? Who got any enjoyment or pleasure from that. Pointless for both teams. Time to tier football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: playwiththewind1st on May 25, 2019, 08:22:54 PM
https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/299622

A sign of things to come for the football.

What was the point of that Tyrone Antrim game? Who got any enjoyment or pleasure from that. Pointless for both teams. Time to tier football.

Probably to show Tyrone how much work they have to do if they really want to descend to Antrim's level.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on May 25, 2019, 10:06:16 PM
As an Antrim man Iíd actually be in favour of a tiered system 100%  that pissed me off tonight, not the hammering as much as the commentators constantly giving Antrim a pat on the head Ďah sure theyíre a div 4 team, fair play the lads kept trying hard and didnít let their heads dropí its bullsh*t let our players play at a level where they are competitive and can get silverware not just a pat in the back and keep up the good work.

Condense the county season, do away with Mckenna cup etc, play provincial championship before the league over 4/5 week period, hit the league as a straight format no semi finals etc then hit a 2 tiered championship whatever way they want to do champions league format or whatever.

People talk about lack of interest poor crowds etc, 1 idea is play all double headers seeing as the minor games arenít on before senior games, have the B game on before the A game and if they want to boost the numbers to look good on tv etc have an incentive like if youíre in for the first game your 2 kids get in free, there are ways but the gaa really needs to do something soon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 25, 2019, 10:59:23 PM
Themac23, sure the league is effectively meaningless, as in nobody really is bothered if they win it or not. And if the provincial cíship is a stand-alone Competition, it effectively becomes meaningless too.

Also, the team in the preliminary round. Do you think theyíd seriously bust their balls 4 weeks running to win a meaningless Ulster? And kn**ker themselves for the main competition?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Armagh18 on May 25, 2019, 11:26:09 PM
Jaysus football is a funny old game. Mayo win the league and beat a very good Kerry team in the final, then get beat in cíship by Roscommon, the same Roscommon team that just about beat Armagh last year in the Qualifiers then proceeded to get thumped in the super 8ís and this is the Mayo team (whats left anyway) thats the only team to lay a glove on the Dubs in the championship in years.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rudi on May 25, 2019, 11:46:57 PM
Jaysus football is a funny old game. Mayo win the league and beat a very good Kerry team in the final, then get beat in cíship by Roscommon, the same Roscommon team that just about beat Armagh last year in the Qualifiers then proceeded to get thumped in the super 8ís and this is the Mayo team (whats left anyway) thats the only team to lay a glove on the Dubs in the championship in years.

All of that is true and that's why it's a beautiful game.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on May 26, 2019, 12:14:34 AM
Tiered football will finally bury the lesser counties. What's going on now is shambolic. There's your choices. Stick or twist. There is no solution in reality. I personally think county boundaries are an archaic way of setting up teams. Too many imbalances to overcome
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 12:28:34 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 26, 2019, 12:44:54 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

+1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 01:19:26 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.
Yip. Thatís where it is headed.

The club will be a greater draw. Iím not sure what is driving this to be honest. Antrim got tanked by Tyrone today. In the year 2000, Antrim beat Down to claim their first Ulster championship win in 18 years. Life went on all those years.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on May 26, 2019, 06:47:48 AM
For last nights matches, Dublin were 1/100 with bookmakers. The handicap was 6 goals, which they covered easily. They are by far the most skewed odds you will see on a bookmakers website. I have tried hard but I'm unable to think of a sporting equivalent, in an organised tournament situation, where the odds would be so extreme. This is not even sport any more, and the GAA should be f**king ashamed

I think there comes a point in any sport where you are doing harm to yourself if you continue to play in a match you cannot win. We have gone well passed that point with some of these matches. If it was a club game, there'd by no time wasted in some places offering a walkover.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 26, 2019, 07:04:12 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

I donít understand your logic at all. Clubs can progress through the ranks from junior to senior so the same can happen at county level. A few big guns will generally always be there but if thereís a 2 up, 2 down system thereís lots of room for progression.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on May 26, 2019, 07:04:26 AM
Themac23, sure the league is effectively meaningless, as in nobody really is bothered if they win it or not. And if the provincial cíship is a stand-alone Competition, it effectively becomes meaningless too.

Also, the team in the preliminary round. Do you think theyíd seriously bust their balls 4 weeks running to win a meaningless Ulster? And kn**ker themselves for the main competition?

I understand where youíre coming from with regards to teams not busting themselves for 4 weeks before a main competition but effectively thatís where we are at the min anyway, the provincial championship is effectively just a safety net for the big counties, for example Mayo getting beaten last night I still fully expect to see them in the super 8s. But nobody can tell me they enjoyed that Antrim game, we had 13 behind the ball when 10pts down, was complete damaged limitation from the start, to me thatís not football. Play teams at your own level thatís how to progress. Itís one issue that seems to totally divide, I know people who like myself are all for it and also people who are dead set against it but I think it is something needs really looked at
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:24:02 AM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:29:31 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 09:18:27 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Where do you cut it off? Roscommon got the trunks skelped off them in the super 8s last year. Tyrone beat them by more than they beat us. Where do you put Roscommon?
Dublin annihilate everybody. Where do you put them?

Tankings have always happened. What odds?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Estimator on May 26, 2019, 09:52:30 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Where do you cut it off? Roscommon got the trunks skelped off them in the super 8s last year. Tyrone beat them by more than they beat us. Where do you put Roscommon?
Dublin annihilate everybody. Where do you put them?

Tankings have always happened. What odds?
Agreed.
Even if it was tiered, hammerings will still happen.

This century we’ve had 9pt, 8pt, 12pt, and 10pt victories in All-Ireland finals.

In the last 10yrs there have been victories in the Quarter Finals / Super 8 of 10pts, 22pts, 14pts, 18pts, 9pts, 10pts, 27pts, 8pts, 15pts, 19pts, 13pts, 18pts, 13pts, 8pts, 9pts, 13pts and 17pts

In the Semi-Finals there have been hammerings of 12pts, 9pts and 9pts.

If this board was around in the 1970’s / 80’s.  Some would be discussing whether or not to allow Ulster sides compete in the All-Ireland competition.  As an extension,  they would suggest that Leinster and Munster should compete for Sam, and Connacht and Ulster should compete in a second tier.

Even if we look at league standings - over the last 5 years the two teams that have finished bottom of Div 1 [teams that would be considered to be Top 8] have a grand total of 10 victories from 70 matches. Cork own 3 of those from the 2016 league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 10:36:11 AM
I was embarrassed for Antrim last night. It's not the players fault that they are so inferior but their county board and then GAA for making them play the match. No one who watched that night can make an argument for the status quo and not have their mental stability questioned.
Where do you cut it off? Roscommon got the trunks skelped off them in the super 8s last year. Tyrone beat them by more than they beat us. Where do you put Roscommon?
Dublin annihilate everybody. Where do you put them?

Tankings have always happened. What odds?

Exactly.

Roscommon are top 9/10, and they clearly arenít good enough to compete in the top grade.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 26, 2019, 12:26:59 PM
I hope Limerick beat Cork next weekend so we can an opposite but equal reaction of, look little teams can beat big teams.

In all seriousness though, I thought that Aidan O'Rourke's proposal yesterday was good, despite it being complicated and, by his own admission, not taking every area of the sport into consideration. I think it would keep a lot of people happy.

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0524/1051431-future-of-football-blueprint-for-a-3-tier-championship/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 26, 2019, 01:52:21 PM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why itís bollocks.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Substandard on May 26, 2019, 02:49:34 PM
I would be very wary of a tiered system, but already the smaller counties get so little exposure.
Maybe if there was an open draw where win your first Tier 1 game, you get a home draw next day.  Lose, and you go into a neutral venue, which would be a home venue for a Tier 2 winner.  (I haven't done the maths here, so don't shoot if it ends up unworkable).
The winners of each play off (1 and 2) progress, the losers in Tier 1 go into a relegation semi-final.

The Top 2 in Tier 2 automatically qualify for Tier 1 next year.  The bottom 2 (losing relegation semi-finalists) Tier 1 teams relegated, and the winning semi-finalists play off against the losing semi-finalists from Tier 2.  Therefore, there could be potentially a 4 team swing in any given year, however unlikely that could be.
It's not perfect, I haven't allowed for New York or the provincials, but I strongly believe that there needs to be a realistic target for promotion to the top Tier for teams from behind.  If it's a case of only one, or even two up, then you are effectively cutting off a lot of counties for good, and there would be at least 12 counties with significant games, whether to win their Tiers, or stay in Tier 1.
It's just my tuppence worth, as I said, there's probably huge, and maybe unworkable, holes in it.

On the subject of exposure, maybe a Match Of The Day format with a decent amount of match highlights with minimal analysis to showcase the counties, and a separate program which could deal with more in-depth analysis.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 07:27:40 PM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why itís bollocks.

Works at club level.
Antrim would've been lucky to have had 500 supporters at the match yesterday. Yet they had a chance of winning an USFC and an AI. Shite teams have shite support, end of story.
Anyone who thinks things must go on this way because they always have, has no clue about GAA or sport in general. They are the enemy of the GAA and every Irish person who has ever lived.
Change is coming.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 26, 2019, 08:09:29 PM
HQ need to be very careful with this. Go with a tiered system and thereís no way back. Itíll be the end of the gaa as we know it.

A tiered system will decimate the GAA participation and interest in the lower league counties. Youíll have 5 or 6 counties which will continue to get stronger and stronger. The GAA will flog those top 5/6 to death which will ultimately keep it all ticking over. The lower competitions will make feck all money and that will decline as interest wanes. But the GAA wonít care because the big fish will continue to draw crowds. The rest will trail behind in the dark ages.

Bollocks

Maybe so. But please explain why itís bollocks.

Works at club level.
Antrim would've been lucky to have had 500 supporters at the match yesterday. Yet they had a chance of winning an USFC and an AI. Shite teams have shite support, end of story.
Anyone who thinks things must go on this way because they always have, has no clue about GAA or sport in general. They are the enemy of the GAA and every Irish person who has ever lived.
Change is coming.
:o

Up there with Cromwell

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 26, 2019, 08:33:49 PM
Ok fellas. Was going to post this on the Kildare v Longford thread. Unfortunately Longford would be in tier 2, Kildare in tier 1 according to league placings would be with them, cos ya know like they're in Leinster and all 11 teams are shit comparing to the Dubs.* Seems a cracker of a match. Yet would we get to see 3 minutes of highlights from it as Dinny said on The Sunday Game?? Or would we see the score and Des Cahill saying in a rather patronising tone, "must have been a great game lads" with a chuckle from whoever is with him in the studio? I can't see RT… bothering their holes giving extra time to tiered competitions. And definitely no 'extra highlight' package for it.

*Not my thoughts lads, just the 'general consensus' among most of the GAA fraternity. I hope you Kildare men understand this.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 26, 2019, 08:47:21 PM
People moan about coverage. The game still takes place. You can still go to it. Itís not like itís behind closed doors. If you canít be arsed to go to the game, donít complain about coverage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 26, 2019, 08:59:05 PM
People moan about coverage. The game still takes place. You can still go to it. Itís not like itís behind closed doors. If you canít be arsed to go to the game, donít complain about coverage.
To be honest, the thought never crossed my mind to head down to Kildare v Longford but seeing as it appears to have been a good game Iíd like to see some of it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 26, 2019, 09:41:46 PM
The current proposals being discussed provide for retaining the Provincials.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 26, 2019, 10:04:05 PM
People moan about coverage. The game still takes place. You can still go to it. Itís not like itís behind closed doors. If you canít be arsed to go to the game, donít complain about coverage.
To be honest, the thought never crossed my mind to head down to Kildare v Longford but seeing as it appears to have been a good game Iíd like to see some of it.
Yeah I was at all the games today, even the ones that were on at the same time. Would yis quit complaining.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 27, 2019, 10:50:43 AM
People moan about coverage. The game still takes place. You can still go to it. Itís not like itís behind closed doors. If you canít be arsed to go to the game, donít complain about coverage.
To be honest, the thought never crossed my mind to head down to Kildare v Longford but seeing as it appears to have been a good game Iíd like to see some of it.
Yeah I was at all the games today, even the ones that were on at the same time. Would yis quit complaining.

Poor games between poor teams that no one has an interest in shouldn't be given TV coverage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 27, 2019, 11:39:39 AM
Ok fellas. Was going to post this on the Kildare v Longford thread. Unfortunately Longford would be in tier 2, Kildare in tier 1 according to league placings would be with them, cos ya know like they're in Leinster and all 11 teams are shit comparing to the Dubs.* Seems a cracker of a match. Yet would we get to see 3 minutes of highlights from it as Dinny said on The Sunday Game?? Or would we see the score and Des Cahill saying in a rather patronising tone, "must have been a great game lads" with a chuckle from whoever is with him in the studio? I can't see RT… bothering their holes giving extra time to tiered competitions. And definitely no 'extra highlight' package for it.

*Not my thoughts lads, just the 'general consensus' among most of the GAA fraternity. I hope you Kildare men understand this.

The GAA live in the moment it's all reactionary and not visionary. There are so many fundamental issues that are wrong with the County game. Provincial structures, - Kildare face the possibility of playing Carlow and losing in 2 weeks, they will have played 4 championship games and are out. Sligo have played 1 and lost and will still be in the championship longer than Kildare. It's Gombeen shit.  Financial and home advantage disparities - the elephant in the room that will not be address by tiered systems. Mayo are going bankrupt trying to keep up, it's not sustainable in Kerry either. Ploughing money into senior set-ups in short-term, gives a quick bounce, Kildare tried it and did relatively well, we focused on under-age and have done well but we can't transition across to senior because we don't have the finances to support the senior set-up and we don't even have high milage clams.

Tiered structures will only drive the wedge further and further, how long before Dublin GAA look for a bigger share of the TV money, I mean they are on TV the most, it's probably a fair call....

Oh and Kildare got 2mins 30 secs last night, in the one of the games of the weekend, Westmeath/Kerry was the other, they didn't even give that result....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 27, 2019, 11:43:23 AM
https://www.gaa.ie/news/fixtures-review-committee-to-be-established/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 27, 2019, 11:59:38 AM
https://www.gaa.ie/news/fixtures-review-committee-to-be-established/

Will the Provincial Council's give up their power? This is Ireland and politics, social sacrifice does not exist and people still vote on the parish pump.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 27, 2019, 12:04:55 PM
Ok fellas. Was going to post this on the Kildare v Longford thread. Unfortunately Longford would be in tier 2, Kildare in tier 1 according to league placings would be with them, cos ya know like they're in Leinster and all 11 teams are shit comparing to the Dubs.* Seems a cracker of a match. Yet would we get to see 3 minutes of highlights from it as Dinny said on The Sunday Game?? Or would we see the score and Des Cahill saying in a rather patronising tone, "must have been a great game lads" with a chuckle from whoever is with him in the studio? I can't see RT… bothering their holes giving extra time to tiered competitions. And definitely no 'extra highlight' package for it.

*Not my thoughts lads, just the 'general consensus' among most of the GAA fraternity. I hope you Kildare men understand this.

The GAA live in the moment it's all reactionary and not visionary. There are so many fundamental issues that are wrong with the County game. Provincial structures, - Kildare face the possibility of playing Carlow and losing in 2 weeks, they will have played 4 championship games and are out. Sligo have played 1 and lost and will still be in the championship longer than Kildare. It's Gombeen shit.  Financial and home advantage disparities - the elephant in the room that will not be address by tiered systems. Mayo are going bankrupt trying to keep up, it's not sustainable in Kerry either. Ploughing money into senior set-ups in short-term, gives a quick bounce, Kildare tried it and did relatively well, we focused on under-age and have done well but we can't transition across to senior because we don't have the finances to support the senior set-up and we don't even have high milage clams.

Tiered structures will only drive the wedge further and further, how long before Dublin GAA look for a bigger share of the TV money, I mean they are on TV the most, it's probably a fair call....

Oh and Kildare got 2mins 30 secs last night, in the one of the games of the weekend, Westmeath/Kerry was the other, they didn't even give that result....

Not only that, but how long before DublinTV rolls into town, like MUTV?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on May 27, 2019, 12:10:16 PM
https://www.gaa.ie/news/fixtures-review-committee-to-be-established/

Will the Provincial Council's give up their power? This is Ireland and politics, social sacrifice does not exist and people still vote on the parish pump.

Everyone has a price.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2019, 08:40:12 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-ready-to-bite-the-bullet-on-possible-championship-reform-1.3906175

Something is about to give. After another weekend where one set of results stood in stark contrast to the other, the GAA has established a new fixtures review committee in an effort to establish something a little more balanced.
This will begin with the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship, probably as early as next summer, with three different proposals for outright changed also set to be at Congress 2020.
The weekendís Leinster quarter-finals provided fresh evidence of the issue: while just two points separated Laois and Westmeath, and Longford and Kildare went to a replay, Dublin and Meath beat Louth and Carlow by a combined 7-39 to 0-19.
ďWhen you look at the championships in the last few weeks you see great local derbies and great matches,Ē said GAA president John Horan.
ďThen you see some games a little bit with too big a gap in the result. So our hope would be that at the next Central Council meeting in June to bring forward a proposal to look at the introduction of a Tier 2 championship for those teams in Division Three and Four.
ďThere is an appetite out there within the organisation for us to go ahead with a Tier 2 championship. Now is the time to grab that when the appetite is out there. I think we will possibly get it through at Central Council and if we do we will call a Special Congress in September or October time to have a look at putting this forward.Ē
Speaking after the round one qualifier draw of the All-Ireland football championship, Horan also confirmed Eddie Sullivan will chair the fixtures review committee. A former secretary general within the public service, Sullivan is also is former chairman of his club, St Sylvesters, in Malahide.

This committee are going to be given the opportunity to come in with whatever proposals, the ultimate decision will be made by the democratic process we have which is Congress.
ďThe Club Players Association and the GPA will each have a representative, the other members of the committee will be from other sectors, second level will have a representative, third level and then from within the organisation itself.
ďSomebody said it on the radio at the weekend, there is no silver bullet for this. If it was easily solved it would have been a solved a long time ago. I would be hoping that this group will come back with proposals that will be beneficial to the clubs on the ground.
ďThe indication I will be giving to them when they do come together is to come in with three proposals, because there is a debate out there whether provincial championships should survive or not survive.Ē
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 28, 2019, 08:51:58 AM
Iíd be worried my own County Antrim and others would disappear off the map altogether in a low profile lower tier.  However if the players are in favour, then why not go the whole hog and scrap the National League and have 3 (or 4) tiers in the Championship with meaningful promotion relegation at stake. This would leave more time for clubs and less risk of burnout for County players.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 08:56:47 AM
We are getting to that point with appetite anyway Sportacus. I don't know if I've seen less appetite for the county football team and that is saying something. It allows people to talk crap about casement but we gave it away and we didn't have to close it when we didn't have an alternative yet.

Not sure where this would leave us mind you but then with the backdoor at least we have a potential winnable game. (though louth still favourites).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2019, 08:59:59 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/kevin-mcstay-time-for-gaa-to-be-bold-and-opt-for-a-new-championship-format-1.3906025

"The qualifiers have been wonderful but as a concept, their race is run. Overall, the weaker counties did not benefit from the format. The main beneficiaries were the strong counties availing of their second chance to storm to All-Irelands, as Galway and Kerry and Tyrone all did.

The other counties were, in the horrible line, living just to die another day. A good draw was getting a team slightly worse off than you. Sooner or later, they would come up against a big force and then out they would go, often with a drubbing as their closing experience.

I was listening to Colm Oí Rourke, one of the architects of the format on RT… radio on Saturday, and he conceded that their day is done. Remember, there was a time when there was a real fear that the qualifiers would ruin everything. They didnít. But the level of interest and novelty has died away too."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 09:07:45 AM
The gap between top and bottom is too much. The commitment levels required vs the reward for about 20 odd counties is not worth it and that is being reflected by player apathy and in turn crowd apathy.

The question is will a second tier just kill football in the so called weaker counties. A lot of thought needs put into this or it will cripple the game at county level in half the country. If Brexit has taught us anything it is that a plan is required!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 09:22:10 AM
The current proposal(s) are just Tommy Murphy mark 2 leaving "Tier 2" as just a Summer tournament with no tangible reward for winning it other than a nice shiny cup.
However let's see what comes from the June CC meeting.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 10:11:23 AM
The current proposal(s) are just Tommy Murphy mark 2 leaving "Tier 2" as just a Summer tournament with no tangible reward for winning it other than a nice shiny cup.
However let's see what comes from the June CC meeting.

Do we really need to wait? HQís plan will be pushed through no matter whoís in favour of it.

Even if 30 counties are against it, HQ will tell us all how everyone is behind and how s great idea it is.

The GAA are becoming more like Blatter and his FIFA cronies with every passing week.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 10:21:52 AM
There are ways this could be made work if enough thought is put into it. That's an if though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 28, 2019, 10:39:09 AM
The current proposal(s) are just Tommy Murphy mark 2 leaving "Tier 2" as just a Summer tournament with no tangible reward for winning it other than a nice shiny cup.
However let's see what comes from the June CC meeting.

Do we really need to wait? HQís plan will be pushed through no matter whoís in favour of it.

Even if 30 counties are against it, HQ will tell us all how everyone is behind and how s great idea it is.

The GAA are becoming more like Blatter and his FIFA cronies with every passing week.
That's the fear. The GPA need to their members' views across strongly here. The players should be the dominant voice here, in my view.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 10:53:39 AM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 28, 2019, 10:56:56 AM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.
That's the talk. If that's the case then they need to be happy with the specific structure of it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 28, 2019, 10:59:47 AM
Time to merge the League and Championship.


Senior 1
Dublin
Donegal
Mayo
Cork
Monaghan
Roscommon
Tipperary
Fermanagh

Senior 2
Kerry
Meath
Tyrone
Clare
Cavan
Galway
Armagh
Kildare

Intermediate 1
Longford
Carlow
Down
Derry
Westmeath
Antrim
Wexford
Wicklow

Intermediate 2
Waterford
London
Laois
Louth
Offaly
Sligo
Limerick
Leitrim

Home and Away 14 games
3 Automatically relegated 3 Automatically Promoted.


Senior AI Series
Top 4 in Senior 1 and Senior 2 qualify for All-Ireland Senior Quarters. Seeded draw. Top seeds have home advantage for quarter-final and semi-final.
Final in CP

Intermediate AI Series
Top 3 in Intermediate 1 and Intermediate 3 qualify for All-Ireland Intermediate Series Top seeds straight through to semi-finals, the other 4 play a quarter-final . Seeded draw. Top seeds have home advantage for quarter-final and semi-final.

Minimum 14 games per county. Maximum 17. Finals day last Sunday in June and work back from there. Clubs have July, August, Sept and October for Championships.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 11:02:03 AM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.

How many of them favour it?

What about club members, all the county players, county board reps, managers, fans etc? Are they all in favour of it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 28, 2019, 11:42:45 AM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 28, 2019, 12:04:51 PM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?

The opportunity to win a provincial title.

Quote
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!

Nothing like a bit of calm perspective.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 28, 2019, 12:08:33 PM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!
Which County are you from Trailer?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 28, 2019, 12:10:32 PM
Dinny, are you proposing three to be relegated from each of the senior divisions?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 12:19:50 PM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!

Whatís the best teams got to do with anything? Do we want to see Dublin v Kerry in the AI final every year, just because they happen to be the best teams? Now, Cavan arenít the best team in Ireland. But should that mean itís unacceptable for them to appear in an AI final?

Any new format is snobbery. Oh we only want to see the best teams in the final. Why? Dublin Kerry, Kerry Dublin, Dublin Tyrone. I dunno about you but it tends to get very monotonous watching the same teams over and over again in the final stages. Any new format suggested wonít change this.

As for meaningful games. Was Dublin Roscommon and Tyrone Roscommon meaningful games last year? 20 point margins. And that was Div 1 teams. The top 8 teams playing each other!! I donít recall any talk of Roscommon not being allowed in the Senior cíship. But Louth and Antrim on Sunday with a similar margin of defeat, oh chuck them in tier 2!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dinny Breen on May 28, 2019, 12:27:04 PM
Dinny, are you proposing three to be relegated from each of the senior divisions?

Yes to ensure leagues remain competitive and reduce dead rubbers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 12:42:43 PM
They would need to do better than they do in the hurling in terms of relegation. They have made it very difficult to get relegated with the team in the higher divisions having a few chances.

i think the McDonagh cup is ok but the league definitely has been like that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 12:54:49 PM
Last I heard GPA members from weaker Counties favour the move.

How many of them favour it?

What about club members, all the county players, county board reps, managers, fans etc? Are they all in favour of it?
Me uncle Tom thinks it's a great idea anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Look-Up! on May 28, 2019, 01:05:53 PM
Why would anyone be against a tiered championship. What can they see in the current system that won't exist in a future tiered championship?
Look at the Hurling championship and how it has become the premier GAA competition. The best teams playing each other lots of times in meaningful games.
Those against change are in the same category as flat-earthers and anti-vaxers. They must be crushed!

Whatís the best teams got to do with anything? Do we want to see Dublin v Kerry in the AI final every year, just because they happen to be the best teams? Now, Cavan arenít the best team in Ireland. But should that mean itís unacceptable for them to appear in an AI final?

Any new format is snobbery. Oh we only want to see the best teams in the final. Why? Dublin Kerry, Kerry Dublin, Dublin Tyrone. I dunno about you but it tends to get very monotonous watching the same teams over and over again in the final stages. Any new format suggested wonít change this.

As for meaningful games. Was Dublin Roscommon and Tyrone Roscommon meaningful games last year? 20 point margins. And that was Div 1 teams. The top 8 teams playing each other!! I donít recall any talk of Roscommon not being allowed in the Senior cíship. But Louth and Antrim on Sunday with a similar margin of defeat, oh chuck them in tier 2!
I get what you're saying and we all can hope for a bit of romance in the Championship where a team can come from nowhere and turn the tables but that day is well and truely gone unfortunately. If a county is really serious about vast improvement then it has to come in baby steps over a longer period of time. There is no more one season wonders. I think a tiered championship offers that for counties. Get competitive in your tier, then try win it, then get competitive in next tier. I do get the opposition of course. Media will only pay the lower tiers lip service. Live coverage will tend to be top tier centric. ATM the Sunday game is not interested in smaller counties and will rerun the big game they showed live earlier. But hopefully that will change. As you said the AI series is boring and predictable and looks like getting worse so the new top tier will still have that problem. A lower tier will still have counties of a very high standard and would be very unpredictable as most counties fortunes can vary drastically from year to year. I think for the neutrals, if marketed correctly, backed properly by the GAA and with equal media coverage these competitions could be more appealing.
 It's hard to know what to do with the provincials in that setup. Look, turkeys don't vote for christmas so there's no way provincial counties would allow the provincial championships to be scrapped as that would leave the councils obsolete. They would need certain assurances but I think it would be still good to keep the provincials. It's another cup up for grabs and keeps local rivalries going. Would be a problem for fixture congestion though. Might have to have 3 tiers in Championship and/or an extra league division. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 01:16:14 PM
Presently at Senior Inter County there are 8 NFL weekends,  4 Provincial Championship weekends and 9 All Ireland weekends.
A tiered structure (16/8/8) would use *7 Weekends if played with Group stages or just  *5 if straight knockout .

Allowing the Inter/Junior Finals to have a weekend all to themselves.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 01:52:01 PM
I donít see any point in keeping provincials. Say, Armagh v Cavan semi in Ulster. Are we going to go full pelt to get to a meaningless Ulster final when we have our first game in 3/4 weeks in the championship proper? This half-arsed approach to winning already exists in the league, and to a certain extent in the provincials as it is.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 02:03:46 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties canít?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 02:14:19 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties canít?

How dare you think rationally, GL!

Youíre right though. When you analyse it, the revamp is actually a diversion from the GAA failures to fund smaller counties. Take Antrim: why werenít they funded in the same way Dublin were? They were always the underdog, but with funding they could be in the top half each season. You seen what Bradley did with them, so the potential is there. But according to HQ, nah theyíre just shite, put them in tier 2, or 3.

And when tier 1 and 2 gets going, the lacking of funding to these smaller counties will be ignored. Antrim/Leitrim/Wicklow etc will forever be in 2 or 3, and the GAA wonít be helping them do anything about it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 28, 2019, 02:29:41 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties canít?

How dare you think rationally, GL!

Youíre right though. When you analyse it, the revamp is actually a diversion from the GAA failures to fund smaller counties. Take Antrim: why werenít they funded in the same way Dublin were? They were always the underdog, but with funding they could be in the top half each season. You seen what Bradley did with them, so the potential is there. But according to HQ, nah theyíre just shite, put them in tier 2, or 3.

And when tier 1 and 2 gets going, the lacking of funding to these smaller counties will be ignored. Antrim/Leitrim/Wicklow etc will forever be in 2 or 3, and the GAA wonít be helping them do anything about it.

Ah, it's good to see there are some lads with a bit of sense on this board! The tiered system is being put in place to hide away the lesser counties. Out of site of of mind. Out of mind and then there are no worries about embarrassing scoreline and no worries about having to finance such counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on May 28, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
Ah, it's good to see there are some lads with a bit of sense on this board! The tiered system is being put in place to hide away the lesser counties. Out of site of of mind. Out of mind and then there are no worries about embarrassing scoreline and no worries about having to finance such counties.

This is the nail on the head right here. 

We have had many hammerings down the years and never felt the need to make such a move.  This is driven by journalists and mouthpieces on the Sunday Game saying things because they like the sound of their own voice.  They will chop and change at the championship until they kill the goose that laid the golden egg.  It started with the qualifiers, then it was the Super 8s, now this. 

I really worry about who is advising the direction of travel in Croke Park - it's like Animal Farm. All animals are equal; some are more equal than others.
Do we not need a Congress to make such changes.   

What the GAA really need to do, is introduce Financial Fair Play rules.  The odds are stacked against the weaker counties and the playing field must be evened out. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 03:01:05 PM
Introducing a second tier is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to a problem that has been simmering for the best part of a decade. The best teams are getting better and the bottom teams are staying stagnant. Making the poorer teams continue to play each other however is not going to improve matters. Just because the Leinster championship has become a perennial turkey shoot for Dublin does not mean the GAA has to revamp the whole All Ireland series.

Focus needs to be on improving the weaker counties through investment: coaching, infrastructure and centres of excellence. Why can small counties like Fermanagh (or Monaghan even) fulfil their potential and to an extent be competitive but other counties canít?

How dare you think rationally, GL!

Youíre right though. When you analyse it, the revamp is actually a diversion from the GAA failures to fund smaller counties. Take Antrim: why werenít they funded in the same way Dublin were? They were always the underdog, but with funding they could be in the top half each season. You seen what Bradley did with them, so the potential is there. But according to HQ, nah theyíre just shite, put them in tier 2, or 3.

And when tier 1 and 2 gets going, the lacking of funding to these smaller counties will be ignored. Antrim/Leitrim/Wicklow etc will forever be in 2 or 3, and the GAA wonít be helping them do anything about it.
Antrim is a great example, huge potential in terms of population and while there is some work going on itís nowhere near enough and nothing compared to the money pumped into Dublin GAA. The football team is struggling and the hurlers havenít reached the level they were once at, probably one of the few counties though to win an All Ireland club at both senior football and hurling in the last ten years? So itís not like the club scene is particularly weak. Having Casement Park, an institute of Ulster football and hurling left to rot wouldnít happen in Kerry, Mayo or Tyrone
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on May 28, 2019, 03:05:47 PM
Why do we bother with three grades at club level so , why not have castlebar v kilmovee,  ballycroy v Ballintubber etc
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 28, 2019, 03:13:48 PM
Why do we bother with three grades at club level so , why not have castlebar v kilmovee,  ballycroy v Ballintubber etc

Because it is Club level.

Why not try in turn to help counties to get up a level?

Why decide Dublin needed funding to help them be stronger and stop there?

The problems that currently exist with weaker counties will continue to be the problems after a tiered system. Putting them into a lower tier and hiding them away will only sort things out for the Strong Counties.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Kickham csc on May 28, 2019, 03:34:19 PM
Why do we bother with three grades at club level so , why not have castlebar v kilmovee,  ballycroy v Ballintubber etc

Because it is Club level.

Why not try in turn to help counties to get up a level?

Why decide Dublin needed funding to help them be stronger and stop there?

The problems that currently exist with weaker counties will continue to be the problems after a tiered system. Putting them into a lower tier and hiding them away will only sort things out for the Strong Counties.

That's all will happen

With a tiered system, the GAA will be in a position to charge more to the TV companies to cover the top tier games.

And the bottom tier will just chug along.

And the gap will get bigger and bigger.

Shameful.

County football is representative football. If there is a gap in standards then the GAA should be setting up strategies to release funding.

If we go with the 2 tier proposal, I propose that 75% of centrally released development funding should go to the teams in Tier 2.

And like club football, it is always harder for teams at the top of div 2 to win and get promoted, than a team who are 4/5 from the bottom to avoid regulation.

Just a bad bad idea

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 03:35:42 PM
It's not just about funding - it's how it's managed / channeled etc. There are many county boards who couldn't be trusted with a load of funding. That is not to say they would be underhand with it but they just wouldn't know what to do with it or wouldn't do a good job with it. Whatever you say about Dublin they have put good systems in place so as the money is well used. I wouldn't be so sure that would happen everywhere.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 04:04:17 PM
When a revamp is agreed on, weaker counties (in particular) are accepting the GAAís failures as regards funding. Therefore, letting HQ off the hook.

Antrim (Belfast particularly) should have been funded years ago. If Antrim delegates/co board vote for a two tier system, theyíll be accepting that their situation is all their own fault, rather than HQís lack of funding.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 04:20:45 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 28, 2019, 04:23:54 PM
They would need to do better than they do in the hurling in terms of relegation. They have made it very difficult to get relegated with the team in the higher divisions having a few chances.

i think the McDonagh cup is ok but the league definitely has been like that.
Kevin McStay suggested 20,6 ,6 with 4 groups of 5 in the 20 and one promotion each way between the tiers
And the 3 finals on the same day in September

20 would give D2 and half of D3 the chance to improve by mixing with the better teams
More games would benefit everyone
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 28, 2019, 05:07:31 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 28, 2019, 05:25:11 PM
My comment was in relation to someone saying Antrim would have had great teams if they'd got loads of funding like Dublin.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 06:20:54 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 28, 2019, 07:12:46 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

Youíre obviously (a) a bit thick or (b) unable to read. If youíre trying to compare carlow, fermanagh, leitrim footballers with la lakers or carlton. The teams Iím talking about have played at the same tier for over 100 years and have never come close to winning anything. The odd win here and there is as good as it gets. Why not have 3 tiers with promotion/relegation so that 6 counties can have the excitement of an all ireland final with 3 counties emerging champions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 28, 2019, 07:19:43 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

What a stupid f**king way of looking at anything. LA Lakers! Carlton! Narnia! Mordor! Coco United!


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 07:22:05 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.

But the game has changed. Itís no longer about the best players winning the AI. Systems, S&C, yoga, nutritionists, analysis, training weekends is all part of it now. Plus coaching/facilities from an early age helps massively too. The top players are all but paid and looked after better than ever. Time off, recovery, sponsored cars etc etc. The idea of players being looked after years ago was a shower and a hot dinner after training. The more rural counties are at a loss geographically with college, commuting etc, and with fewer jobs.

More than ever results are determined by the county setup and their facilities and back room teams. Itís distespectful to say Leitrim lads, commuting from Dublin for training, arriving having drove 2 hours and do same after training. Whereas Dublin could walk to training. Leitrim population is low, and itís insulting to suggest they should just get the finger out, try harder, and youíll get promotion to the top table.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: playwiththewind1st on May 28, 2019, 07:31:24 PM
My comment was in relation to someone saying Antrim would have had great teams if they'd got loads of funding like Dublin.

Another £26 million in a sports holdall should cover it..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 07:46:31 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

I agree with this and iím from Antrim. I donít know why Antrim keeps coming up in this. It has a big city in it and Dublin is a big city too. That is really where the comparison ends. There are more rural clubs than city clubs in Antrim and arguably there are too many clubs in the city too.(and I have heard more city than country people say that).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maiden1 on May 28, 2019, 07:48:32 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

What a stupid f**king way of looking at anything. LA Lakers! Carlton! Narnia! Mordor! Coco United!
You mean comparing gaa to most other sports were majority of teams have little chance of winning but still like the chance to compete.

Unlike your well thought out enemy of any Irish person who ever lived and must be crushed argument.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 28, 2019, 07:48:57 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.
Does that not tell you something? A county containing Ireland’s second city is struggling and has been for decades. Too much potential and it isn’t being harnessed
My comment was in relation to someone saying Antrim would have had great teams if they'd got loads of funding like Dublin.
Where did anyone say this?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 28, 2019, 07:56:18 PM
In addition various articles say that Antrim have 108 affiliated clubs.

34 clubs play adult menís football. Itís not that many compared to stats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 28, 2019, 08:04:43 PM
Roscommon, Cavan, Monaghan, Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford get f all funding yet with much smaller populations are consistently better than Antrim at football.

Up until 3 or 4 years ago no one anywhere talked about funding. The only reason funding is mentioned is because dublin are going for 5 in a row. Therefore for over 100 years fermanagh, leitrim, louth, carlow, waterford all were funded roughly equally and how did those counties do in that time. Funding has become an issue but some counties will never be at the top table in football terms. Players commit to those counties at the mom and train year in, year out with no prospect of winning a championship. If we have 3 tiers like at club level then 3 counties every year will be championship winners. Why should dublin, kerry and mayo be the only teams with a realistic chance of winning an all ireland. If there are 3 levels every county panel will start of the season with ambitions of winning a championship.
The LA Lakers have been a bit rubbish the last few years maybe they should go into a second/third tier. Nearly 800 entered the fa cup maybe get it over quicker just make it for the top 8 premier league teams. Carlton only won 2 games in afl last this year maybe there fans be happy enough playing in lower tier.

What a stupid f**king way of looking at anything. LA Lakers! Carlton! Narnia! Mordor! Coco United!
You mean comparing gaa to most other sports were majority of teams have little chance of winning but still like the chance to compete.

Unlike your well thought out enemy of any Irish person who ever lived and must be crushed argument.

The GAA has it's own unique intricacies. It's not professional for a start and it's greatest strength is it's parochial nature. Comparing it to any professional sporting system is stupid. It's needs a tiered system with promotion and relegation. Anyone with any understanding of competitive sport knows this. Doing nothing is not an option.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:34:10 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 08:44:23 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway

Thatís what I would suggest. Open draw, first round 2 legs. Knockout after that. Every team gets a home game. And even if Leitrim drew Dublin, how often do the AI champions come to town?

Look at FA Cup the teams that have made the semis or final over the last 30 years or so. Millwall, Chesterfield, Wycombe, Barnsley, Cardiff, Etc etc.

Plus, Dublin Kerry first round, thatís one of the big guns gone. Great opportunity for progression for lesser teams. Players would really buy into it knowing they have a chance of doing something.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on May 28, 2019, 08:51:16 PM
Might as well switch the provincial cup competitions to Feb and March altogether, with a back-door for Rd 1 losers within each province.   4 provincial winners play for the Spring Cup.

Run the 4 divisions of leagues mid-May to end of June.  Top 4 in each division into semi-finals.  Normal promotion and relegation.  Winner of Div 1 gets Sam Maguire.  All done by August Bank Holiday.   So four divisions equals four tiers.  Work your way up/down each year based on your performance.

County Championships August to mid-October.  Club finals in December.  Plenty summer football for everyone - club and county players.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 28, 2019, 08:53:34 PM
i would do best of 3 instead of 2 legs because if  you do 2 legs and a team gets hammered by 20 in the 1st leg the 2nd leg the team would have no hope with best of 3 even if they get hammered in 1st game they still have small hope to win the 2nd game and bring it to a 3rd game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 28, 2019, 10:28:13 PM
i would do best of 3 instead of 2 legs because if  you do 2 legs and a team gets hammered by 20 in the 1st leg the 2nd leg the team would have no hope with best of 3 even if they get hammered in 1st game they still have small hope to win the 2nd game and bring it to a 3rd game

Some right loonys on here. Dublin v antrim or london over 2 legs. Kerry v leitrim. When the first leg has been won by 25 points plus how many will go to see the return leg. Do some of you lads come from counties where the clubs have just one championship with an open draw?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on May 28, 2019, 10:33:26 PM
2 legs??? So weaker counties could get pasted by the same team twice. Two tier hammerings.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 28, 2019, 10:40:47 PM
i would do best of 3 instead of 2 legs because if  you do 2 legs and a team gets hammered by 20 in the 1st leg the 2nd leg the team would have no hope with best of 3 even if they get hammered in 1st game they still have small hope to win the 2nd game and bring it to a 3rd game

Some right loonys on here. Dublin v antrim or london over 2 legs. Kerry v leitrim. When the first leg has been won by 25 points plus how many will go to see the return leg. Do some of you lads come from counties where the clubs have just one championship with an open draw?

2018 Super 8ís:

Tyrone 4-24 Roscommon 2-12 - an 18 point win. And that was a neutral venue!

Roscommon were a top 8 team having won Div 2 last spring.

If that was the first leg, how many would go to the second? It doesnít necessarily have to be Kerry Leitrim for it to be a stuffing match. Div 1 teams are doing it to each other.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Kickham csc on May 30, 2019, 12:17:00 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway

I would seed it.

That means you league performance and prov championship performance influence your All Ireland draw.

If you look at this year, Derry nearly pulled off a shock against Tyrone, Div 1 'v' Div 4, and there are always going to be bad hammerings.

But this is a competitive sport. The only way to improve your performance is via coaching and player management.

By creating a second tier, CP will have pulled a fast one, where the calls for development funds to a div 4 county (Antrim) can be largely ignored or managed with a token effort.

All the media will focus on Div 1 & 2, and like hurling, where it is in a healthy state in about 8 - 10 counties, nobody cares, because the top championship will be producing great games

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 30, 2019, 12:55:46 PM
would a unseeded straight 32 team knockout not be a option ok  dublin might get drawing against a div 4 team and hammered them but if the draw is kind you may get a div 3 or 4 teams making it to the quarter finals  you go also make the games up to the semi finals best of 3 if it goes to a 3rd game then it be played on a neutral site that way every team is guaranteed a minimum of 2 games anyway

I would seed it.

That means you league performance and prov championship performance influence your All Ireland draw.

If you look at this year, Derry nearly pulled off a shock against Tyrone, Div 1 'v' Div 4, and there are always going to be bad hammerings.

But this is a competitive sport. The only way to improve your performance is via coaching and player management.

By creating a second tier, CP will have pulled a fast one, where the calls for development funds to a div 4 county (Antrim) can be largely ignored or managed with a token effort.

All the media will focus on Div 1 & 2, and like hurling, where it is in a healthy state in about 8 - 10 counties, nobody cares, because the top championship will be producing great games


Thatís it in a nutshell.

Iíd imagine TV money will become an issue too. Counties will want a slice of the pie, like Premier League clubs. The top counties will get stronger and the lower teams will get worse. When that happens, the GAA will have created an uncontrollable beast. Theyíve already done it with Dublin. They must be so proud.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 30, 2019, 01:46:51 PM
Antrim, Antrim, Antrim! That great bastion of the GAA. Legendary champions with 100s of inter county football titles! They've just fallen on hard times. A sleeping giant! Oh wait! That's right! They've no pedigree, absolutely none! And a CB that's is renowned for its amateur approach to everything they do! Lets get real here. Funding so called tier 2 or 3 counties is all well and good but some of them don't deserve brass!! Why would anyone in any position of authority even contemplate giving the Antrim CB any money?

Tier the championship, fund tier 2 and 3 counties yes, but only those that want to help themselves. Dublin put their house in order and benefit from the funding because of it, not the other way around.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 30, 2019, 02:01:19 PM
How "near" were Derry in reality to pulling off a "shock result"?
They may have briefly took the lead but then Tyrone blew them away in the closing stages.
The one shock so far was Limerick batin Tipp but then Tipp have slid well back this year.
Cavan beating Monaghan and us batin the Rhus were mild surprises at most.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 30, 2019, 02:01:37 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time Iíve asked).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on May 30, 2019, 02:29:00 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time Iíve asked).

Antrim, I bet :D
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 30, 2019, 02:37:10 PM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time Iíve asked).

I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 30, 2019, 05:48:57 PM
Letís get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years itís the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. Itís a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 30, 2019, 06:35:05 PM
i said best of 3  best of  3 means 1st to win 2 games advances if it goes to a 3rd game play it on a neutral site  with best of 3 even if a team gets  a hammering first game they can still win 2nd game and take the game to a 3rd game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 06:37:30 PM
How "near" were Derry in reality to pulling off a "shock result"?
They may have briefly took the lead but then Tyrone blew them away in the closing stages.
The one shock so far was Limerick batin Tipp but then Tipp have slid well back this year.
Cavan beating Monaghan and us batin the Rhus were mild surprises at most.
In fairness the manner that Cavan,Roscommon players and supporters celebrated their wins would suggest it was more than a mild surprise.   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on May 30, 2019, 06:39:03 PM
Letís get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years itís the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. Itís a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.
There are clearly differing views on this among GAA people.

Let's not pretend that it's a "no-brainer". If it was a no-brainer we wouldn't be having the discussion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 06:39:53 PM
Letís get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years itís the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. Itís a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.

We already have the league for that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 30, 2019, 07:12:49 PM
Letís get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years itís the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. Itís a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.

We already have the league for that.

And look at how itís surpassed the championship for excitement the last few years. Lots of good competitive games at all levels. The bonus being that 4 teams get to celebrate a league win and 8 teams get to play in a final and get promotion. With a 3 tier championship the players and supporters from 6 counties would get the chance to look forward to an all ireland final with 3 teams celebrating at the end. At this stage we can realistically write off the chances of 28 or 29 teams and thatís not going to change for most of those teams for the next 20 years. Hence the player drop out being so high in teams outside the top 5 or 6.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 30, 2019, 07:31:47 PM
i said best of 3  best of  3 means 1st to win 2 games advances if it goes to a 3rd game play it on a neutral site  with best of 3 even if a team gets  a hammering first game they can still win 2nd game and take the game to a 3rd game

Jesus youíre still persisting with this stupid idea. Take a lie down. Youíre talking like someone whoís not right in the head.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on May 30, 2019, 07:40:32 PM
Letís get real here, there already are at least 3 tiers in football at the moment. 8 teams only get 2 championship matches every year and for quite a few that is their lot every year. Another 8 or so only get one more match than that and again most years itís the same counties who end up out after 2 or 3 matches with minimal tv or media coverage. By creating a junior and intermediate championship at county level those teams would have something realistic to compete for. They can compete at their own level and make steady improvements and progression. Itís a no brainer for players, coaches and supporters.

We already have the league for that.

And look at how itís surpassed the championship for excitement the last few years. Lots of good competitive games at all levels. The bonus being that 4 teams get to celebrate a league win and 8 teams get to play in a final and get promotion. With a 3 tier championship the players and supporters from 6 counties would get the chance to look forward to an all ireland final with 3 teams celebrating at the end. At this stage we can realistically write off the chances of 28 or 29 teams and thatís not going to change for most of those teams for the next 20 years. Hence the player drop out being so high in teams outside the top 5 or 6.

What we need is the league made more important and to capture the imagination of all GAA followers.   Attendances has lowered in recent years for the league and TV viewers wouldn't be high either and I can imagine sponsorship money would be tiny compared to the championship. As it stands reaching a provincial final carries more value and interest among players and supporters than winning a Div 2,3 or 4 league title.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on May 30, 2019, 08:46:38 PM
I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.

Both of which won the square root of f**k all until less than 20 years ago.

Nice of you to seek to deny the opportunity to other counties via strangling their budgets.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 30, 2019, 11:35:08 PM
How "near" were Derry in reality to pulling off a "shock result"?
They may have briefly took the lead but then Tyrone blew them away in the closing stages.
The one shock so far was Limerick batin Tipp but then Tipp have slid well back this year.
Cavan beating Monaghan and us batin the Rhus were mild surprises at most.
In fairness the manner that Cavan,Roscommon players and supporters celebrated their wins would suggest it was more than a mild surprise.
More to do with relief at  ending   long losing streaks and of course putting one over on smelly neighbours.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: irish345 on May 31, 2019, 01:23:36 AM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on May 31, 2019, 01:34:00 AM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time Iíve asked).

I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.
The relevance is that people from different counties will have different perspectives on this.  People from a current Ďweakerí County might have a genuine concern that a tiered system will see their County disappear off the map while all the focus is on the Top Tier.  Theyíre not looking sympathy but could do without people from the current top tier dismissing that view.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 09:54:07 AM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
If Cavan win Ulster this year the whole County will care an awful lot.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 09:57:06 AM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
If Cavan win Ulster this year the whole County will care an awful lot.
Munster and Leinster are processions
The system is banjaxed
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 10:01:04 AM
I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.

Both of which won the square root of f**k all until less than 20 years ago.

Nice of you to seek to deny the opportunity to other counties via strangling their budgets.

Go on. Explain how a second tier would strangle a counties budget?
And don't start talking shite about games not on TV and people not going to them. I was at the Tyrone Antrim game, an USFC quater final and if there was 500 Antrim supporters that was the height of it.

If you're good enough you'll be in the top tier. End of story.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 10:03:59 AM
Which County are you from Trailer?  (2nd time Iíve asked).

I don't see the relevance but originally Tyrone now living in Armagh.
The relevance is that people from different counties will have different perspectives on this.  People from a current Ďweakerí County might have a genuine concern that a tiered system will see their County disappear off the map while all the focus is on the Top Tier.  Theyíre not looking sympathy but could do without people from the current top tier dismissing that view.

They're already off the map. No one is going to the games. Catch a grip. Why in the name of everything that is holy would anyone want to persist with what we have now? Explain to me how it's working for Antrim or Leitrim or London or Waterford.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 10:12:43 AM
Kevin McStay

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/kevin-mcstay-time-for-gaa-to-be-bold-and-opt-for-a-new-championship-format-1.3906025

"The April experiment has not worked. The qualifiers have been wonderful but as a concept, their race is run. Overall, the weaker counties did not benefit from the format. The main beneficiaries were the strong counties availing of their second chance to storm to All-Irelands, as Galway and Kerry and Tyrone all did.
The other counties were, in the horrible line, living just to die another day. A good draw was getting a team slightly worse off than you. Sooner or later, they would come up against a big force and then out they would go, often with a drubbing as their closing experience.
I was listening to Colm Oí Rourke, one of the architects of the format on RT… radio on Saturday, and he conceded that their day is done. Remember, there was a time when there was a real fear that the qualifiers would ruin everything. They didnít. But the level of interest and novelty has died away too."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 10:15:45 AM
Explain to me how it's working for Antrim or Leitrim or London or Waterford.
Oddly enough Leitrim under Terry Hyland have had an excellent 2019 so far, bar their championship hammering by Roscommon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 10:17:27 AM
Kevin McStay

The other counties were, in the horrible line, living just to die another day.

McStay likes that "horrible" line. He used it to describe Tyrone's win over his own county in a qualifier in 2008. He later had to eat his words.  He's wrong here too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 11:14:02 AM
Maybe McStay might outline his proposals.
Very easy for pundits to tell us the present system is bad news but I'd take them far more seriously if they put forward their own proposals.
For Leitrim the present tiered LEAGUE has worked well for them.
They brought 8 or 9,000 to Croke Park for the Final.
I'd say there wasn't much on 1,000 of them in the Hyde.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:48:12 AM
Maybe McStay might outline his proposals.
Very easy for pundits to tell us the present system is bad news but I'd take them far more seriously if they put forward their own proposals.
For Leitrim the present tiered LEAGUE has worked well for them.
They brought 8 or 9,000 to Croke Park for the Final.
I'd say there wasn't much on 1,000 of them in the Hyde.

He did in the same article


"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice Ė home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their
strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 11:50:38 AM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice Ė home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 11:53:28 AM
Maybe McStay might outline his proposals.
Very easy for pundits to tell us the present system is bad news but I'd take them far more seriously if they put forward their own proposals.
For Leitrim the present tiered LEAGUE has worked well for them.
They brought 8 or 9,000 to Croke Park for the Final.
I'd say there wasn't much on 1,000 of them in the Hyde.

In fairness any county that has to depend on a local chemists for part of their jersey sponsorship is going to struggle against stronger counties in the championship, regardless of format.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on May 31, 2019, 11:57:37 AM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice Ė home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.

How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus
The main point is that change is inevitable

Groups of 5 would mean more games for middle ranked counties. Say what you like about Ros and Cavan but exposure to D1 every 2 years has stood to them
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 11:58:27 AM
Thanks SeafůidŪn for posting the rest of the article.
If you have 3 All Ireland Finals the same day about 30,000 sacred cows will have to give up their AI tickets.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 12:06:49 PM


How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus

"His" ideas have all been trotted out ad nauseam previously. He's well aware of the questions that they raise - for example having intercounty players training 12 months for 3 or 4 months of games - but chooses to ignore them. Lazy rent-a-quote punditry.


The main point is that change is inevitable

Change does not necessarily mean progress.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 12:41:21 PM


How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus

"His" ideas have all been trotted out ad nauseam previously. He's well aware of the questions that they raise - for example having intercounty players training 12 months for 3 or 4 months of games - but chooses to ignore them. Lazy rent-a-quote punditry.


The main point is that change is inevitable

Change does not necessarily mean progress.


Adapt or die. That's the choice. Fans are voting with their feet. Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on May 31, 2019, 12:47:26 PM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice Ė home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.

Imagine Dublin playing the 20th best. More hidings dished out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 31, 2019, 01:27:51 PM
He did in the same article

"If I were king in all of this, my preference would be to use the senior, intermediate and junior national football championships as a template. There are 20 senior teams, six intermediate and six junior county sides.
The calendar season would look like this. January to April would be reserved for clubs, from pre-season through to club league games- featuring county players. The inter-county season would run from May through to August, with a national league running through May and June to decide upon the seeding for the All-Ireland tournaments.
The nettle needs to be grasped right now
The All-Ireland senior championship would feature 20 teams in four groups of five chosen through an open draw. Each team would have four games: two at home and two away. The top two in each group would advance to the All-Ireland quarter finals. And so on.
The intermediate and junior All-Irelands would each feature two groups of three teams. Each team would play the other two teams twice Ė home and away. So they would also get four matches. The top two teams from each group would play the final. And crucially: All Three Finals Would Take Place On All-Ireland Final Day In Croke Park. Rankings would be determined by the national league.
The All-Ireland season would be done by August. At the end of each year, one team would be promoted from or relegated to one of the three tiers. September and October would be reserved for club championships. Finally, the provincial and All-Ireland club championships would run through November and December. So for the vast majority of teams, players, managers, backroom staff, those last two months of the year would be a complete close season.
The big advantages of this format, as I see it, would be that the season would become more game-oriented for players. Clubs would be able to field their strongest sides for league and championships. The home and away dimension would help to balance the differences between counties and the thrill of the knock out kicks-in at the quarter final stage.
The nettle has to be grasped right now. I think any system based along this format would rejuvenate the club season and bring new excitement to the revered All-Ireland tradition. It is time to be bold"

Not much originality there.

The idea of county panels training without competitive matches until May each year is an absolutely ridiculous idea for a recent intercounty manager to come up with.

Imagine Dublin playing the 20th best. More hidings dished out.
And they don't meet anyone outside the top 10 now?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on May 31, 2019, 01:28:55 PM


How much originality can you have designing a sports competition? Jaysus

"His" ideas have all been trotted out ad nauseam previously. He's well aware of the questions that they raise - for example having intercounty players training 12 months for 3 or 4 months of games - but chooses to ignore them. Lazy rent-a-quote punditry.


The main point is that change is inevitable

Change does not necessarily mean progress.
How many months should be given over to County teams to the detriment of clubs?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:40:45 PM
How many months should be given over to County teams to the detriment of clubs?
That's a loaded question. There's no need for any month to be given over exclusively to county games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 01:43:44 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on May 31, 2019, 02:05:09 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.

You know it all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on May 31, 2019, 02:08:17 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.

You know it all.

I know
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 31, 2019, 03:27:07 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.

I'm all for change, lets start changing the amount of funding going to Dublin. Lets Change the amount of home games Dublin get. I'm not against change!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: general_lee on May 31, 2019, 03:29:17 PM
provincials are glorified friendly tournaments if tyrone never won an ulster title again but won all irelands no one would really care
If Cavan win Ulster this year the whole County will care an awful lot.
As would Armagh.

Iím all for change myself, change back to straight knock out provincial and All Ireland series
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 03:40:09 PM
No!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 05:15:10 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.
The change will bury football completely in half the country. The change has been tried and tested in the form of the Tommy Murphy Cup. There is no appetite for it. Nobody wants to go and watch it. Any decent players from the weaker counties will flock to America every summer rather that play in some 2 bit forgotten about competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: befair on May 31, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.
The change will bury football completely in half the country. The change has been tried and tested in the form of the Tommy Murphy Cup. There is no appetite for it. Nobody wants to go and watch it. Any decent players from the weaker counties will flock to America every summer rather that play in some 2 bit forgotten about competition.
Tiers work well in club football, ladies football, + many other sports, and are just as passionately contested as senior games. But it needs to be properly supported, the obvious way is for the 2nd tier final to precede the senior final. Time for the minor final to move
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 06:19:13 PM
How many tickets are the 2 ballbag counties going to be afforded on All Ireland final day?

The entire idea is to hide the crap teams away in a corner somewhere to make the main competition seem at a higher standard. Thereís not a mission theyíll parade them at their showpiece event.

This will not have the numbers flocking back to games either. I donít understand that rationale there.
The same amount of people are going to go to the Tyrone & Donegal game whether Tyrone slaughter Antrim in the previous round or not.

This is not promoting Gaelic football. It is an exercise in hiding the faults.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 06:43:50 PM
8 "ballbag" Counties will be out of action from 8/9 June.
Not a bad oul way of "hiding the crap teams" away. ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 06:47:20 PM
God forbid some of our stars might grace the same field as them. They were on TV too!! Save us.

Iíd be careful what you wish for in Roscommon. You embarrassed the association in front of Sky Sports last year. That wonít have gone unnoticed by the suits in HQ.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on May 31, 2019, 07:39:24 PM
Your one grumpy hoore.
Probably used to getting your own way ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 31, 2019, 07:44:00 PM
Those who oppose change are opposing the development of Gaelic Games and want to see this past time die out altogether.

Nail on head, we want to kill football and hurling.  ::) ::) ::) Is that your best?  8) 8) 8)

Can see no other logical reason to oppose change.
The change will bury football completely in half the country. The change has been tried and tested in the form of the Tommy Murphy Cup. There is no appetite for it. Nobody wants to go and watch it. Any decent players from the weaker counties will flock to America every summer rather that play in some 2 bit forgotten about competition.

A lot of county players from the weaker counties are already heading to the usa for the summer and have left their county panels. Longford had one of their best players leave the panel after the league for that reason. He obviously stays and plays in the league where it is competitive and his team have a chance to compete. He knows the championship is a waste of time. 2 or 3 games and then youíre out, if thatís been your lot for the last 60/70 years why would it change now. Getting a lucky draw in the playoffs and winning a game only delays the inevitable. By the middle of june half the counties will be out of the championship and most years itís roughly the same counties. What have these counties got to lose from a tiered championship. The current system doesnít meet their needs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 07:51:37 PM
Competing in and maybe even winning a competition that nobody gives one toss about isnít going to inspire anyone either. See Tommy Murphy Cup. What have they got to lose? Interest. Support. Commitment. The county game will be redundant for them as all eyes, even those of the kids in their own county will be on the real competition.

Nice anecdote about the Longford player. Was the opportunity on the table for him to head away during the league or did you make up why he ďobviously staysĒ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 31, 2019, 08:25:06 PM
Competing in and maybe even winning a competition that nobody gives one toss about isnít going to inspire anyone either. See Tommy Murphy Cup. What have they got to lose? Interest. Support. Commitment. The county game will be redundant for them as all eyes, even those of the kids in their own county will be on the real competition.

Nice anecdote about the Longford player. Was the opportunity on the table for him to head away during the league or did you make up why he ďobviously staysĒ?

That ďanecdote ď was on the Sunday game. Club players put a huge value on intermediate and junior championships. No reason why county players wouldnít do the same. As it stands championship is already an irrelevance for about 15 counties or more and it will continue like that unless the structures change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 08:33:30 PM
Youíve suggested that he ďobviouslyĒ stayed for the league as it is competitive. Thatís not obvious to me. Indeed, itís likely that American clubs werenít looking him from February to April and thatís why he was still at home.
Clubs are entirely different to county. You must realise that?
We are going back to a system that failed so badly 10 years ago that we scrapped it. And for what?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on May 31, 2019, 08:45:32 PM
Youíve suggested that he ďobviouslyĒ stayed for the league as it is competitive. Thatís not obvious to me. Indeed, itís likely that American clubs werenít looking him from February to April and thatís why he was still at home.
Clubs are entirely different to county. You must realise that?
We are going back to a system that failed so badly 10 years ago that we scrapped it. And for what?

He is only one case. Derry have 2 players who opted out of the championship panel but played in the league. The league has been great for a number of years with lots of competitive games. Championship is just a farce especially the early games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 09:04:34 PM
If itís a farce because some teams are much better than others, then it is a farce to the very top. Dublin walk through almost every team (if not every team). There are teams at the business end of the championship getting blitzed by Tyrone.

Gaelic football has problems. Antrim & Louth getting annihilated in the early rounds of the championship by the 2 best teams in the country is NOT a major one. You get mismatches in the early rounds of most sports competitions. The fact that people are switching off games that are supposed to be the thick of the championship between the good teams is the real issue threatening the GAA.

But sure, cut the bottom 8 adrift and the championship will be a better competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on May 31, 2019, 10:59:21 PM
If itís a farce because some teams are much better than others, then it is a farce to the very top. Dublin walk through almost every team (if not every team). There are teams at the business end of the championship getting blitzed by Tyrone.

Gaelic football has problems. Antrim & Louth getting annihilated in the early rounds of the championship by the 2 best teams in the country is NOT a major one. You get mismatches in the early rounds of most sports competitions. The fact that people are switching off games that are supposed to be the thick of the championship between the good teams is the real issue threatening the GAA.

But sure, cut the bottom 8 adrift and the championship will be a better competition.

+1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 10:59:40 PM
It's clear alot of posters onthis thread have no idea of the sacrifice for training and gym work to be an inter county player.

There's f**k all tv/media coverage for counites in earlier rounds of the the championship yet this is used as an argument against tiered championship.

Players expected to slog it out training over winter to enter a competition they cant win and then enter qualifiers only to be beaten by an All Ireland contender.

The GAA today reminds me of WWI stories. Lions led by donkeys. You have players giving incredible commitment in training/matches yet orginisational decisons are made by old committee men who have no connection to modern day football and haven't kicked a ball in decades
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:06:40 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the ďbaby pool, God help yasĒ competition IMO.
Remember the club/county thing is fairly fragile. Players are likely to look towards the club rather than county Ďliteí.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 11:12:58 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the ďbaby pool, God help yasĒ competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:19:09 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the ďbaby pool, God help yasĒ competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
Iíd say a lot of players would rather return to the club and put the effort in there rather than a wee shield with the county having given up half their lives.
I think people underestimate how the thought/dream of a bit of a run in THE championship can motivate someone.
If youíre in the bum competition from the start, would ya really bother putting your 21-28 year old life on hold? The Tommy Murphy Cup tells us you wouldnít.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on May 31, 2019, 11:23:39 PM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the ďbaby pool, God help yasĒ competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
Iíd say a lot of players would rather return to the club and put the effort in there rather than a wee shield with the county having given up half their lives.
I think people underestimate how the thought/dream of a bit of a run in THE championship can motivate someone.
If youíre in the bum competition from the start, would ya really bother putting your 21-28 year old life on hold? The Tommy Murphy Cup tells us you wouldnít.
In my experience thats  just not true. Specifically in recent years. Players want to represent their county but they want to win as well. No chance of success and they've no interest. If they had a genuine chance of winning a trophy for the county they would commit
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on May 31, 2019, 11:27:03 PM
Doubt it. Weíve been there, done that, signed the J1s.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on May 31, 2019, 11:27:55 PM
In any sports competition though you will always get a reasonable number of teams who just wonít have a chance of winning. As hs says If you put say ten in the top tier then really only Dublin will win, maybe just maybe the odd year Tyrone or Kerry  or someone might too, but itís the same principle as now. Plenty of teams canít win the competition.

You could apply this to hurling championship, champions league, premier league, tennis majors, golf majors or any sport.

To me the bigger problem is getting hammered with the bigger gaps and going in with no chance. The gap just keeps widening between the top and bottom and the football is like the hurling used to be. The commitment is too great and the reward for the investment just isnít worth it. In ďlesserĒ counties all you read about is dropouts these days. Everyone wants to see the best players playing for their counties and that needs addressed. I am from a ďlesserĒ county and when growing up it was always seen as the dream to play for the county whereas now it just doesnít feel like itís like this in so many counties.

If tiered championship fixes that then itís the answer. Who knows if it would though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 12:21:25 AM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the ďbaby pool, God help yasĒ competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
The reason a "Tier 2 " is currently on the table is because a lot of players in the weaker Counties want it.
A few years ago they via the GPA didn't want it so it didn't get to Congress (2015??)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 01, 2019, 12:24:42 AM
Players would be rightfully reluctant to put in the same effort for the ďbaby pool, God help yasĒ competition IMO.

I work with a company that's heavily involved in GAA. Majority of players I spoke to simply want a chamce to win things. Its no coincidence they preferred the league set yp to current championship set up
The reason a "Tier 2 " is currently on the table is because a lot of players in the weaker Counties want it.
A few years ago they via the GPA didn't want it so it didn't get to Congress (2015??)
I wouldn't dispute that some of the players in the weaker counties want it, but the cynic in me doubts very much it's the reason it's on the table.

I wonder if they want back in after a few years will they put it back on the table.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 12:41:21 AM
Don't know.
Can't foretell the future (unlike some around here :D)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:07:31 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 11:13:44 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

 I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 01, 2019, 11:23:15 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything. Not factual
Weaker counties are not on TV Right now, probably. Otherwise, not factual
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams Not fatual
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.From the sun?

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.
Facts?

Well I'm glad you put all those silly arguments to bed. Once everyone can manage to just not take you seriously, your nonsense adds a bit of colour to the board.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 01, 2019, 11:25:42 AM

This is not promoting Gaelic football. It is an exercise in hiding the faults.

Probably the most accurate comment on this thread IMO.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 11:44:20 AM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

 I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.

You're clearly not intelligent enough to debate this issue with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on June 01, 2019, 12:17:08 PM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
And what? Why is there an expectation that they should? We are bringing the ďevery child at sports day should get a medalĒ theory to a new level.
There are competitors in just about every sports competition in the world who never win. Itís the very nature of sport that weaker teams wonít win.
The question is does putting them in a lesser competition improve them? I donít believe it does. Does it improve the overall competition? I donít believe it does.
We have previously tried this. It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 01, 2019, 02:04:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:10:56 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that. If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Sometimes you get left behind by the change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 02:11:49 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 01, 2019, 02:27:31 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 04:42:36 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never wouldíve been heard off years ago. At times you wouldnít have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. Thatís down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we canít have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on June 01, 2019, 04:50:32 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never wouldíve been heard off years ago. At times you wouldnít have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. Thatís down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we canít have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Without looking it up do you know who any of those teams were playing this weekend?  Donegal BTW conceded a whopping 7-22(43) today and more proof if ever needed that tiers doesn't stop such hammerings.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on June 01, 2019, 05:18:47 PM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

 I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.

You're clearly not intelligent enough to debate this issue with.

So you reckon every game will be edge of the seat stuff? Every single one?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 06:43:38 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never wouldíve been heard off years ago. At times you wouldnít have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. Thatís down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we canít have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Where are they getting this higher profile? I donít see it anywhere.

The winning thing to me is a misnomer. Split the football into 3 with , for arguments sake, ten teams in senior then still only one of two or three teams will win it. The rest will have no chance.

Take division one and say Monaghan. Theyíd make a top tier but have no chance of winning it. You do a middle tier and say put Louth in it again no chance.

I still believe it should be split but the chances of winning thing is a nonsense. Youíll give about four , five or six more teams a chance of winning something but the rest not so much.

More teams might get further etc and that would be beneficial , very beneficial, but not that many more will have a chance of winning.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 07:50:30 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never wouldíve been heard off years ago. At times you wouldnít have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. Thatís down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we canít have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Where are they getting this higher profile? I donít see it anywhere.

The winning thing to me is a misnomer. Split the football into 3 with , for arguments sake, ten teams in senior then still only one of two or three teams will win it. The rest will have no chance.

Take division one and say Monaghan. Theyíd make a top tier but have no chance of winning it. You do a middle tier and say put Louth in it again no chance.

I still believe it should be split but the chances of winning thing is a nonsense. Youíll give about four , five or six more teams a chance of winning something but the rest not so much.

More teams might get further etc and that would be beneficial , very beneficial, but not that many more will have a chance of winning.

If four or 5 teams in each tier have a chance of winning that means around 15 teams have genuine hopes of winning something which is much better than the way ot is currently. People saying stuffings will still happen are correct but they will mainly be unpredictable stuffings. Tipperary beat waterford well in the hurling but nobody could have foreseen such a gap between the teams and waterford went into the game with hopes of winning. Did anyone here think louth could get close to dublin or antrim close to tyrone. Those were utterly predictable stuffings which did no good for either of the teams or any spectators.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 01, 2019, 07:52:16 PM
The Munster Semi Finals not doing much for those if us who want the Provincials retained :-\
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 07:54:48 PM
I donít think four or five teams will have a chance of winning though.

I agree with a lot of what youíre saying Lenny but am genuinely interested in why you think the lower tiers are getting a higher profile than they ever did in hurling. I donít see much of it bar the final of the respective competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 07:56:38 PM
Some silly arguments on here for maintaining the status quo. Some people are really confused.

Here's some facts.
Weaker teams don't win anything.
Weaker counties are not on TV
No supporters from weaker counties are going to games involving weaker counties v Div 1 teams
Weaker counties are usually red up at the start of June.

Time that those arguing things are ok got real and copped themselves on.

Yea and? There'll be tankings in a tiered championship too, don't believe me, see Tipp v Waterford this year in hurling...

 I've an idea, let's put Waterford in the second tier...said nobody.

You're clearly not intelligent enough to debate this issue with.

So you reckon every game will be edge of the seat stuff? Every single one?

No. And that's not the point. But teams in their grade will have a realistic chance of winning. If you don't get that, you cannot be helped.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 07:59:24 PM
I donít think four or five teams will have a chance of winning though.

I agree with a lot of what youíre saying Lenny but am genuinely interested in why you think the lower tiers are getting a higher profile than they ever did in hurling. I donít see much of it bar the final of the respective competitions.

Bought the paper today and I see Tyrone are playing Louth. Dunno what the result was but I know this was the fixture.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 08:00:26 PM
I donít think four or five teams will have a chance of winning though.

I agree with a lot of what youíre saying Lenny but am genuinely interested in why you think the lower tiers are getting a higher profile than they ever did in hurling. I donít see much of it bar the final of the respective competitions.

Every monday in the irish news the matches are given a short report with scorers etc. There are also interviews occasionally with players and managers before matches especially towards the latter end of competitions. I never used to see those teams get sny coverage whatsoever.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Ah ok. I donít buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa donít do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 01, 2019, 09:38:46 PM
Ah ok. I donít buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa donít do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.

This is it in a nut shell. "I don't follow hurling but I'll complain about the lack of coverage." God give me strength.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 01, 2019, 09:52:20 PM
I do follow hurling but donít buy the Irish news. That ok?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 01, 2019, 09:56:40 PM
Ah ok. I donít buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa donít do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.

I agree with you that rte or tg4 and gaa should do more for those competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 02, 2019, 08:26:54 AM
Ah ok. I donít buy the Irish news really but maybe you have a point there. Rte or the Gaa donít do much for it but maybe more local outlets like that do.

I agree with you that rte or tg4 and gaa should do more for those competitions.

Tyrone V Louth in Football would hardly be on TV why would you want the Hurling on TV? People need to get real here. Putting games on TV for the craic is not an option. It doesn't happen now and won't happen in a future tiered competition.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 02, 2019, 08:41:15 AM
The Munster Semi Finals not doing much for those if us who want the Provincials retained :-\
Mmm, you're right but Cork v Limerick was also a potential match-up in the proposed new Tier 2 if I'm not mistaken? Similarly, Clare v Kerry was a Tier 1 game. So what does this prove? Nothing, we didn't already know.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 02, 2019, 10:59:02 AM
Cork wouldn't be in it now having reached a Provincial Final.
I think lumping D3 and 4 into it is too crude and you could potentially have a Cork v Down Final which would mean nothing to either team or supporters.
At least the likes of Leitrim, Carlow etc getting to a National Final might generate some excitement e.g Leitrim brought up to 10k to Croke Park for a D4 Final.
If the present proposals go ahead I suggest it be limited to the bottom 6 in D4 and the bottom 4 in D3 plus the winners get into the Qualifiers at an appropriate round.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 02, 2019, 12:10:10 PM
The Joe McDonagh really works. I think looking at four tiers rather than three would be the way to go. The margins in it are tiny. Lose one week you could be relegated or win and youíre in with a chance of winning the thing.

Before it the Christy ring had too broad a range of abilities with som teams having no chance and really wasnít that great. If they are to do anything with the football they should learn from that.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on June 02, 2019, 12:11:54 PM
Cork wouldn't be in it now having reached a Provincial Final.
I think lumping D3 and 4 into it is too crude and you could potentially have a Cork v Down Final which would mean nothing to either team or supporters.
At least the likes of Leitrim, Carlow etc getting to a National Final might generate some excitement e.g Leitrim brought up to 10k to Croke Park for a D4 Final.
If the present proposals go ahead I suggest it be limited to the bottom 6 in D4 and the bottom 4 in D3 plus the winners get into the Qualifiers at an appropriate round.

So, it doesnít matter if youíre shit, you have to be traditionally shit to get put in the corner. We are hand picking the teams for this now. Christ above.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on June 02, 2019, 12:13:45 PM
The Joe McDonagh really works. I think looking at four tiers rather than three would be the way to go. The margins in it are tiny. Lose one week you could be relegated or win and youíre in with a chance of winning the thing.

Before it the Christy ring had too broad a range of abilities with som teams having no chance and really wasnít that great. If they are to do anything with the football they should learn from that.
The games are close alright but has the standard or interest improved in Antrim as a result?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 02, 2019, 12:55:57 PM
Itís only been going a couple of years. I definitely think the interest has improved(we couldnít compete against what we were playing against top level and were far too good for all bar one or two in the ring). Standard too soon to tell but the Christy ring was detrimental to the standards because the gap between top and bottom was so big.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 02, 2019, 03:40:29 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never wouldíve been heard off years ago. At times you wouldnít have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. Thatís down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we canít have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Without looking it up do you know who any of those teams were playing this weekend?  Donegal BTW conceded a whopping 7-22(43) today and more proof if ever needed that tiers doesn't stop such hammerings.

20 point win for Limerick today in the hurling tier 1 competition 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on June 02, 2019, 04:36:33 PM
It was called the Tommy Murphy cup and there was so little appetite for it that we scrapped it. Why would it succeed the 2nd time around?

Maybe we should ask the millions of Britís that votes for Brexit and have since changed their mind.  Things change, attitudes change and that is a good thing.  Having competitive games is more enjoyable to play and watch than non competitive games.  John Horan seems to have his act together, he sees the need for change and is trying to do something about it and I applaud him for that.  If you donít learn to change you get left behind.

Horan is a president and in the GAA you have no power in that role but it's a platform to voice your opinion off a lot as he has done.

GAA President John Horan is a Dub! He has no idea of the plight of the weaker counties. He is looking for a quick fix way of sorting out the mess that has been left from Financially Doping Dublin. This is just another level of the Super 8's - a new way to have more higher profile games in Croke Park and sell corporate Boxes and Premium seats. The lower tiers will be left hidden away (just like the lower level Hurling competitions) and will become less a financial burden and less an administrative burden. Out of sight out of mind.

For the millionth time, the lower level hurling counties are getting a much higher profile than they ever did in the old system. Donegal, fermanagh, tyrone and hurling teams like that never wouldíve been heard off years ago. At times you wouldnít have known they had a hurling team at all. Now they regularly get their games covered in the irish news etc. Thatís down to the fact they are playing in relevant competitive competitions for their standard. This line used on here that we canít have tiers because the hurling counties have gone from wall to wall coverage to being forgotten about is absolute garbage and can we all stop peddling that lie.

Without looking it up do you know who any of those teams were playing this weekend?  Donegal BTW conceded a whopping 7-22(43) today and more proof if ever needed that tiers doesn't stop such hammerings.

20 point win for Limerick today in the hurling tier 1 competition

I think we all agree that thereíll always be stuffings. The point is how many people wouldíve bet on Waterford to lose by 20. They are obviously underachieving or had a really bad day. We all wouldíve been happy to bet on Tyrone or Dublin to win by more than single figures v Antrim and Louth. Those games were pointless and predictable. Even with tiers there will be occasional big defeats. They generally wonít be predictable though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: hardstation on June 02, 2019, 04:44:49 PM
Iíd happily bet Dublin to beat almost every team in Ireland by more than single figures.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: MayoBuck on June 02, 2019, 05:03:13 PM
The football championship has been far better than the hurling so far. The football leagues were also miles better than the hurling equivalent. The difference is the hurling pundits will never criticise their sport. Unlike the football pundits who keep pushing the 2nd/3rd tier agenda which makes the general public think there is nothing positive going on in the sport.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: imtommygunn on June 02, 2019, 05:27:12 PM
Itís hard to know as we get to see so little of it! I love the hurling but there is a bit of a Munster championship overload.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 02, 2019, 05:44:26 PM
Looks like the Golden Goose Munster Championship has had a bit of a wobbly! You'd be thinking there'd be Waterford and Clare supporters that will not be venturing out the next day.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: MayoBuck on June 02, 2019, 05:50:51 PM
Armagh v Cavan sounds like a classic on the radio as well!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 02, 2019, 09:19:36 PM
Itís hard to know as we get to see so little of it! I love the hurling but there is a bit of a Munster championship overload.

Yeah you really can have too much of a good thing. Theyíre really flogging the Munster championship to death at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on June 02, 2019, 10:35:19 PM
Armagh Cavan nail biter today, great.  Antrim have been in an Ulster Final more recently than either.  The answer for Counties like Antrim is to get their house in order, not drop out of the competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 03, 2019, 02:58:47 PM
From the INDO.

Quote

 There is no disputing that change is needed in Gaelic football. But why take away the hopes of so many players who have earned the right to dream of a big day by introducing a two-tier championship? There has to be a better way.

In life, and sport, timing is everything and Dublin's hammering of Louth last Saturday provided the perfect springboard for GAA president John Horan to proclaim the need for a tiered championship two days later on RT… Radio.

"There's an appetite out there within the organisation to go ahead with a tier two Championship and now is the time to grab that while the appetite is out there," said Horan.

There was plenty of support for Horan's comments in the echo chamber that is social media, but what happens when the surface is scratched a little bit deeper.

On hearing Horan's words I set about contacting players from so-called weaker counties to gauge their reaction to potentially being excluded from competing for the Sam Maguire.

I was met with frustration, suspicion, exasperation and definitely a lack of appetite. The players I contacted want change alright but they also want help - they want more resources and better structures within their counties so they can improve. They certainly don't want to be demoted to a secondary competition.

Before last weekend's Leinster quarter-final, Laois manager John Sugrue was talking structures in local publication Laois Today and he said: "Sure feck it, we'd probably be better off with a two-tier championship. We'd be better off if these kind of games didn't happen, inconveniencing lots of people who want to see the top eight play against each other. I think we should just whittle it down and have the best teams playing each other all the time and let everyone else play in back fields around the country."

His frustration is clear. He painted a very grim picture. And with resources in media outlets already stretched, how would these games be covered? Who would promote this competition? Would it be relevant?


A GPA survey revealed last year that almost 60 per cent of the members would support splitting the championship. But two years earlier, a GPA survey showed that Division 4 teams unanimously said they would boycott a proposed 'B' championship. So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of the most recent vote, to hear exclusively from those who would be affected. It's easy for those at the top to vote for something they will never have to face.

Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back.

Having the opportunity to compete at the top level is why players spend at least nine months of the year training, eating right, skipping nights out, missing holidays and ultimately giving their all. The commitment is huge and it's the same in every county - the players in Louth and Dublin work equally as hard, surely they deserve to be treated equally.

Having more games is great, exciting ones are even better, but having meaningful ones trumps the lot. For these players, a shot at a big team, the chance to cause an upset is a bigger carrot than three tight ones in a competition no one really cares that deeply about.

There is a new generation coming through who have different values, priorities and experiences. They have more opportunities and are exposed to a whole lot more because of social media. The world is a smaller place for the next generation.

This is where the players of the future will come from. Of course playing for your county is still held in high esteem but it certainly isn't the be all and end all for many.

Will doing the same training just to play in a secondary competition hold the same appeal as a chance to slay a lion in a meaningful game? Is this something a new generation of players will commit to? I'm not so sure.

There appears to be a disconnect between those driving this second tier proposal and the generation of young people who will shape what the GAA looks like tomorrow.

As for one-sided games, no matter who Dublin play outside the top few teams at the moment, it will be a mismatch and relegating half the country won't stop that.

I speak to players on a regular basis. Every player I meet, regardless of where they are from has the same dream, they want to test themselves against the best and they want to win. It's not realistic for everyone but it should be respected.

There are other options for the GAA to consider, such as an open draw, a Super Bowl format, a Champions League style competition - these, I suspect, are all much more palatable ideas for players than having 'A' and 'B' championships.

Ultimately success starts with a dream. Why take that away from so many?

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 03, 2019, 04:03:11 PM
From the INDO.

Quote

 There is no disputing that change is needed in Gaelic football. But why take away the hopes of so many players who have earned the right to dream of a big day by introducing a two-tier championship? There has to be a better way.

In life, and sport, timing is everything and Dublin's hammering of Louth last Saturday provided the perfect springboard for GAA president John Horan to proclaim the need for a tiered championship two days later on RT… Radio.

"There's an appetite out there within the organisation to go ahead with a tier two Championship and now is the time to grab that while the appetite is out there," said Horan.

There was plenty of support for Horan's comments in the echo chamber that is social media, but what happens when the surface is scratched a little bit deeper.

On hearing Horan's words I set about contacting players from so-called weaker counties to gauge their reaction to potentially being excluded from competing for the Sam Maguire.

I was met with frustration, suspicion, exasperation and definitely a lack of appetite. The players I contacted want change alright but they also want help - they want more resources and better structures within their counties so they can improve. They certainly don't want to be demoted to a secondary competition.

Before last weekend's Leinster quarter-final, Laois manager John Sugrue was talking structures in local publication Laois Today and he said: "Sure feck it, we'd probably be better off with a two-tier championship. We'd be better off if these kind of games didn't happen, inconveniencing lots of people who want to see the top eight play against each other. I think we should just whittle it down and have the best teams playing each other all the time and let everyone else play in back fields around the country."

His frustration is clear. He painted a very grim picture. And with resources in media outlets already stretched, how would these games be covered? Who would promote this competition? Would it be relevant?


A GPA survey revealed last year that almost 60 per cent of the members would support splitting the championship. But two years earlier, a GPA survey showed that Division 4 teams unanimously said they would boycott a proposed 'B' championship. So it would be interesting to see the breakdown of the most recent vote, to hear exclusively from those who would be affected. It's easy for those at the top to vote for something they will never have to face.

Separating weaker counties from the chasing pack will only widen the gulf between the top and bottom and for most there will be no way back.

Having the opportunity to compete at the top level is why players spend at least nine months of the year training, eating right, skipping nights out, missing holidays and ultimately giving their all. The commitment is huge and it's the same in every county - the players in Louth and Dublin work equally as hard, surely they deserve to be treated equally.

Having more games is great, exciting ones are even better, but having meaningful ones trumps the lot. For these players, a shot at a big team, the chance to cause an upset is a bigger carrot than three tight ones in a competition no one really cares that deeply about.

There is a new generation coming through who have different values, priorities and experiences. They have more opportunities and are exposed to a whole lot more because of social media. The world is a smaller place for the next generation.

This is where the players of the future will come from. Of course playing for your county is still held in high esteem but it certainly isn't the be all and end all for many.

Will doing the same training just to play in a secondary competition hold the same appeal as a chance to slay a lion in a meaningful game? Is this something a new generation of players will commit to? I'm not so sure.

There appears to be a disconnect between those driving this second tier proposal and the generation of young people who will shape what the GAA looks like tomorrow.

As for one-sided games, no matter who Dublin play outside the top few teams at the moment, it will be a mismatch and relegating half the country won't stop that.

I speak to players on a regular basis. Every player I meet, regardless of where they are from has the same dream, they want to test themselves against the best and they want to win. It's not realistic for everyone but it should be respected.

There are other options for the GAA to consider, such as an open draw, a Super Bowl format, a Champions League style competition - these, I suspect, are all much more palatable ideas for players than having 'A' and 'B' championships.

Ultimately success starts with a dream. Why take that away from so many?


What's this guys point? Sure this is exactly what's happening at the minute.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Sportacus on June 03, 2019, 06:19:27 PM
Trailer Iím intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you? 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on June 03, 2019, 09:06:18 PM
Trailer Iím intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

Likely because he thinks Derry will be in the lower tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 12:05:30 PM
Trailer Iím intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, in front of poor crowds with little to no interest. Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately.
It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 04, 2019, 01:23:04 PM
Trailer Iím intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, Will tiering do away with poor games??? How many bad games has there been this year so far?
in front of poor crowds with little to no interest...  what proof do you have for this?

Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately. The Leinster championship is dead solely because of the behemoth that is the current Dublin set up, otherwise there are probably 5 or 6 teams who think they would have a good chance of winning it.


It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be.... wtaf are you talking about, you want to radically change the whole intercounty setup because it could be wonderful, sure i might as well make the facile counterargument that it could be crap.

It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. If you seriously think that there is even a single second's consideration being given to the scheduling of club games as a factor in tiering you need your head examined.

But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

Additionally if you think that there is a single second's consideration being given to the advancement of weaker counties you need a second visit to the head examiner.

The proselytizing for tiering is all coming from people with a financial stake in the game, it another inch on the road travelled from the GAA being a community based organisation to becoming a commercial organisation.
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on June 04, 2019, 01:32:46 PM
Trailer Iím intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championship is full of poor games, in front of poor crowds with little to no interest. Munster and Leinster football championships are dead. Gone. Like a dog that has been run over by a lorry we're allowing it to limp on in severe pain out of some hazy long lost nostalgic view. Euthanise and dispose of immediately.
It could be a wonderful competition, played in front of large crowds. It could be run off in a high intensity burst. With real interest and buy in from all counties. Solving scheduling issues for clubs up and down the country. But no, we must persist with this outdated rigmarole of drawn out provincials and back doors that is grossly unfair if you're an Ulster county. It doesn't help any weaker county no matter what anyone says. They're not getting better. They're not winning provincials or All Ireland's. It's time to filter and condense.
It suits the stronger counties to have weaker teams. But a championship were every game is a big game would be a different matter, at all levels/ tiers.

The Championship has been like this since day dot.  Weaker teams have been dumped out routinely by stronger teams.  The quality and competitiveness should improve as the competition progresses.  Unseeded players don't win often in the first round of Wimbledon (some don't even win a game or a set) against the best players.  However, you do get the odd upset and that's what the underdogs live for. 

I would make several changes though to the existing system.  Firstly, I would seed the teams based on league performance both in the provincial championship and the qualifiers.  We shouldn't really have a situation where weaker teams (like London in 2013) reach the provincial final due to being on the easy side of the draw, while Roscommon, Mayo and Galway knock eachother out.  Same for the qualifiers; it is wrong to have two All-Ireland contenders knocked out in the first round and finding themselves pitted against each other in the first round of the qualifiers, while say Wicklow progresses because they beat London.

In Leinster for example, there shouldn't be an open draw (I know it's not open at the moment, but can see no sense in putting Meath in the preliminary round).  The four highest ranked teams in the league shouldn't enter the competition until the QF stage.  The other six teams can play-off for the right to get through - again the Leinster preliminary round should be seeded with the Top 4 ranked teams in the league playing the bottom four ranked teams (top playing bottom, second playing second last, third playing 3rd last). That would at least mean that the teams coming into to play in quarter finals would at least be there on some kind of merit. 

Secondly, I would change the qualifier system to ensure that the point at which you enter the qualifiers is based not on the stage you reach in your provincial championship, but based on the number of games you have won in your province.

Teams that lose their first game should go into the 1st round of the qualifiers.   
Teams that win one game and lose one game in their province, should go into the 2nd round of the qualifiers.
Teams that win two games and lose one game should go into the 3rd round of the qualifiers

This would mean that Cork, who are now in a Munster Final, by virtue of hammering Limerick, should join the second round of the qualifiers if they lose to Kerry. This would reward a team like Limerick who if they made a Munster Final this year would have done so by beating Tipp and Cork.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 04, 2019, 01:56:26 PM
Trailer Iím intrigued as to why you are on this thread every five minutes pushing for a two tier system.  As a Tyrone man, why is it such a big deal to you?

The football championsh