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Messages - Armamike

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1
I think that was Des' first go at trying to be like Shreeves, be interesting to see if this continues

Will be interest to see how tonight's interview goes!

2
General discussion / Re: Premier League 20/21
« on: November 30, 2020, 09:04:43 PM »
Tough draw for Liverpool but a chance to avenge the 7 2.

3
General discussion / Re: Premier League 20/21
« on: November 30, 2020, 11:46:24 AM »
Man U using the same argument to defend Cavani as Liverpool did with Suarez. Suarez got 8 matches.

4
General discussion / Re: Premier League 20/21
« on: November 30, 2020, 10:04:46 AM »
The sound of the clash was bad, and that was with the crowd noise on! 

5
General discussion / Re: Premier League 20/21
« on: November 30, 2020, 09:20:18 AM »
If a player needs a head bandage they shouldn't be on the pitch!  Times have moved on since Terry Butcher's hayday.

6
Never saw the second half but at it sounded like Brighton weren't creating that much in the second half and Liverpool should have seen the match out.  Never nice to concede so late.  Sick of VAR at this point. Have Liverpool got one decision out of it this season? I can't remember many.  There is now a forensic level of analysis undertaken to find a reason NOT to give a goal. 

Like all the best managers, Klopp isn't a good loser and his interviews have always been tetchy when they drop points. We haven't seen that side of him much the past couple of years because Liverpool haven't lost or drawn many! The BT sport reporter Des isn't the worst of them and probably didn't deserve to be on the end of it. Geoff Shreeves is a different story ;)

7
General discussion / Re: The Late Late show
« on: November 28, 2020, 01:01:15 AM »
Did Tubridy just say bollocks on the toy show

I thought it was F**k
Thats what I thought also.

Sounded like that.  An automatic reaction when a bottle of fizzy orange explodes all over you. Would challenge anyone not to say fcuk. All the funnier for a kid sitting 2 yards from him.

8
General discussion / Re: Death Notices
« on: November 27, 2020, 09:30:41 PM »
Also, why is Pele by default seen as the best player ever?  How good was the Brazilian and American leagues?  Irrelevant of that, he was obviously an amazing goalscorer, but from any footage I have saw of him he didn't seem to have that jaw dropping dribbling ability that the like of Best, Cruyff, Maradona or Messi had/have.  Is it purely down to winning 3 world cups?  How good were that Brazilian team, i.e. would they have potentially won those tournaments without him?  The World Cup seems to get a lot more credit when debating the best of all time, whereas inning Champions Leagues are possibly a greater achievement given the fact that the standard is higher at elite club level than it is at international level.  Why is Best never considered as the best ever, purely down to his country of birth and the obvious fact that he never won a world cup?  People may mention years at the top level, and yes he did retire early but at the same time he was at the top level very early and consequently had a decent number of seasons at the top.
Pele was a fraud. Loads of his goals were unofficial and he played at a poor standard during his whole club career. His reputation lives solely off the back of being one of the star men in one of the best football teams of all time, but statistically him (and Maradona) get nowhere near Messi as the GOAT. It's nothing more than people wanting to be "different" by avoiding to pick the obvious choice and letting their nostalgic bias get in the way.

We've all got some degree of bias, though some have more than others it seems.

9
General discussion / Re: Death Notices
« on: November 27, 2020, 08:29:10 PM »
FWIW in my book Maradona was the most entertaining player I’ve ever seen, an extraordinary mix of technique, balance, close control and power. He was pretty much a unique footballer, in some movements using his power to render the best defenders in world as tools to bounce out of tackles and steal a yard, and in alternate movements leaving their colleagues bamboozled and gasping for air.

The only player in my lifetime with similar attributes at the highest level, was Gascoigne - but in terms of output, that’s  like comparing Barcelona with Newcastle. Hence his uniqueness.

But does that make him a better player than Messi or Ronaldo? Honestly, I don’t think  so.  Longevity is the easy marker. Consistency is the more relevant one. Diego just didn’t have the consistency of the other players who are normally hallmarked for the best player of all time. At his best there was nothing like him. But that doesn’t make him the best, anymore than writing a couple of the greatest songs makes you the best songwriter of all time.

Plus anyone  dismissing Messi’s credentials for playing in an era without tackles from behind should really consider just how few brick shithouse 6’ 3” sprinters played centre half in Maradona’s day. They might not be able to kick you these days, but the modern defender is on a different level in terms of physical presence and pace.

From the age of 17/18 until 30 Maradona was consistent, don't get why you think he was inconsistent? His goal record is phenomenal for a player during that era and given the position he played.

“His goal record is phenomenal”.

This isn’t true. Throughout his peak decade (1980s) he averaged a goal every other game for club and country. That is a good return. It might even be very good.

But it wasnt unusual, outlandish or freaky in any way. Definitely not unattainable for a host of top class players in any generation. So it’s not phenomenal. I would call it the minimum bar anyone would expect for the best player in the world.

——

As for inconsistent, I’m being harsh here. But if we are going to assess him as the greatest player of all time, then it is a claim that has to be evaluated severely. International football was the peak measuring then.  Maradona’s extraordinary 1986 World Cup performances were bookended by mediocre ones in 82 and 90. Of course you’ll point to him playing through injuries on those occasions. But that doesn’t change the fact that Argentina were only just about a fearsome side throughout that decade, even though Maradona was with them.

——

I adore Maradona the footballer. But i still think it takes a clear and uneven dose of subjectivity to rank him higher than Messi or Ronaldo.


He wasn't a centre forward, he was an attacking midfielder hence why I'm classing his goal record as exceptional. Goals were hard to come by in Italy during the mid 80's to 1991, only once during that time someone scored over 20 goals during a season. I'm not sure goals is correct metric to be comparing Messi & Maradona.

The problem you’ll encounter if using any quantitative metrics in this discussion, is that apart from World Cups won (0 v 1), Messi will always score higher, and much higher in most metrics. He’s had a phenomenal career, individually and team wise, by anyone’s standards.

Hence the arguments for Maradona being superior will always boil down to qualitative, subjective preference.

Measuring the greatness of players is of course highly subjective and thus debatable.  All any of us can do is give our opinion based on what we've seen with our eyes, from afar on a tv.  The great shame is that we only have very limited clips of games from 30 plus years ago.  The same wall to wall coverage obviously didn't exist then.  That said, people will have seen enough of the likes of Maradona, Pele, Cruyff and so on to know what they were capable of.  Maradona did things with the ball that I don't believe anyone else on this earth to date has been capable of.  That's only an opinion of course. But I would back it up with some 'hard' evidence of his consistency. When he was at Napoli over 6 or 7 years, a mediocre team were winning and challenging for titles.  That would suggest to me that, even though we don't have tv film of every game he played during that time, he must have been performing pretty much week in week out.

10
General discussion / Re: Death Notices
« on: November 27, 2020, 08:15:14 PM »
Do you want to name them?

11
General discussion / Re: Death Notices
« on: November 27, 2020, 02:10:37 PM »
Which goal or goals did you have in mind? His effort against Belgium?

12
What's the chances of our local politicians and the Tory government actually showing some organisational skills for once to get the vaccines rolled out efficiently!

13
General discussion / Re: Death Notices
« on: November 27, 2020, 10:12:41 AM »
England v Argentina 1980

2:35 here

The greatest goal of all time was six years in the making

Maradona's brother asked him "why didn't you go around the goalkeeper"?

He did six years later, he remembered 1980

Though it should probably be mentioned that Ray Clemence was a better goalkeeper than Peter Shilton

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6PchZvly8k&feature=emb_title

Nobody could do what he could with the ball at his feet.

14
General discussion / Re: Death Notices
« on: November 26, 2020, 10:46:08 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.

Is longevity that important really?  Is Messi better because he has been at the top for 15 years. Maradona had around 10 years, from 1980 to 1990.  I don't think greatness should be measured in longevity. Compare it to Gaelic.  The greatest player I've seen in my lifetime was Matt Connor.  He only had 3 or 4 years.  The fact he didn't have 10-12 years doesn't diminish his greatness in my eyes. I saw enough in those 3 or 4 years.

15
General discussion / Re: Death Notices
« on: November 26, 2020, 06:06:56 PM »
Diego existed far and away above anything so trivial as football

He is best looked at as an other worldly liberator of whole peoples

Their entire existence, their entire sense of themselves was validated by him

This is not an exaggeration in any sense - this is genuinely how he made the peoples of Argentina and of Naples feel

In a world sense and in a non football sense, only the likes of Mandela, Martin Luther King and Gandhi had this sort of effect

In history and legend, what he did for Argentina in those four minutes in 1986 was like what Moses did for the Israelites

He was the chosen one

Senna was the Brazilian equivalent.

Sorry but Maradona not GOAT. Messi for me.
Other than them being from South America, at their respective peaks in the late 1980s and having rivetting documentaries about them made by Asif Kapadia, they aren't really comparable





Senna came from 'money' while Maradona patently did not; however, the effect both had on their compatriots was the same. Both were beacons, icons to populations beset with poverty and government indifference and corruption. Both were aspirations to what their people would like to be.

Muhammad Ali was called The Greatest, due perhaps to his personality and the effect he had on the zeitgeist of his era, rather than as much to do with his ring craft. He was scarcely the greatest boxer of all time. In the same way, I think people are conflating Maradona's greatness with his tumultuous times and the stormy life he led. Sure, he played at a time when referee protection was much less and opponents were given more licence to physically stop him from playing, even if it was hardly the brutal free-for-all fest that some would have you believe. His time at the pinnacle was brief by and large, from say 1986 - 1990. His club career, injury-blighted of course, at Barce' was underwhelming, the same post-Napoli where he made little impression at Sevilla and wherever else.

Messi, for longevity alone, is IMO superior to Maradona. He has bestrode the Champions League, (regarded for a good number of years now as the premier competition in football, quality and standard wise)  for over a decade. He has scored the type of 'England 1986' goal many's a time for Barce' and his club performances for a spell in the early to mid years of this decade have been at times stupidly brilliant. Never more so when he masterminded the destruction of Real Madrid almost 10 years ago now;

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/nov/29/barcelona-real-madrid-la-liga

He might have won the '06 WC in Germany if that dolt Pekerman favoured boldness instead of caution. He was never going to win it under Maradona in 2010. Somewhat unfit I think in 2014 and perhaps 2018.

Maradona's great moments were like lightning, brief brilliant flashes. Messi's were a constant blaze of brilliance.
I suppose Senna had as much flair as it's possible to have driving a car

But I would compare him more to somebody like Seve Ballesteros, mercurial in his own way, and loved, but pursuing an essentially minority, rich pursuit

Brazil elevated Senna perhaps in the absence of a great Brazilian football figure of the era, and because of their failure in World Cups in 1986 and 1990, his death and Brazil's victory in 1994 signalled a changing of the guard back to Brazil's first love, football

Senna would not have been what he was without his rivalry with Prost, in a similar way to how Messi's story is tied up with his rivalry with Ronaldo, in both cases, each was driven on by the other

But comparing Senna to Maradona is like comparing Jimmy Page to Jimi Hendrix, The Small Faces to The Beatles, Ocean Colour Scene to Oasis

Maradona didn't have that sort of personal rival, his rival was the system, oppression, the rich, he was a football Robin Hood fighting for the little people

What people's definition of greatness is will differ, but for me the greatest greatness is circumstance, story and explosive genius of the sort nobody else can even dream of, fighting against the odds

There needs to be genius and there needs to be romance, there needs to be soul

Football at it's very best is an art form, it is self expression, or collective expression, but it's also a test of human strength, both physical and mental

In basic football terms Maradona had a higher ceiling than anybody to have ever played the game, his genius was on another level to anybody who has ever played any sport, he did this against the hardest odds any true sporting genius has ever had to put up with

And he produced this ceiling at the very highest level possible, the most popular sporting event in the world - the centre of the world for a month - in a World Cup which was the first one Argentina had experienced free of the junta - most memorably against the country which had defeated it humiliatingly in a war four years earlier

He owned the world, no other footballer, not even Pele, has done this

He did this with an otherwise average team


He did the same in the hardest league there has ever been in football, Serie A from 1984 to 1991, with a team which had never won the league and whose people were looked down upon, ridiculed, despised by the wealthy north of Italy

The graphic of Ché Guevara that we all know means something visceral to people, a sort of a loose, romantic feeling of freedom and justice, of being young, of being a rebel, it doesn't have to make sense, but it stirs something in you, you haven't a heart if it doesn't move you somewhat

Diego was that graphic of Ché Guevara come to life on a football pitch

He was a symbol of freedom, of rebelliousness, of youth, of pure unrestrained potency, of fantasy, unlimited possibility, of exoticism, of cool, of danger, of other worldly genius

He was a rock star, preacher, prophet, stand up comedian, guerilla fighter, genius poker player, all rolled into one

He was the greatest countercultural icon ever

And to his peoples he was a redeemer and a liberator

This is what greatness is

And he suffered for it, because nobody could deal with the unconditional worship people had for him

That's it for me. Produced unsurpassable levels of brilliance on the World Cup stage and lifted average to mediocre teams to glory.

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