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Messages - J70

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1
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: Today at 03:34:31 PM »
There will be some crying now Chelsea Manning's sentence has been commuted.

I thought the whole wikileaks thing was now considered heroic on the right?

Yeah they all love wikileaks now since it helped them win the election... you couldn't make it up!!!
77

Meanwhile at the ranch, The President of the US commutes the sentence of someone who sold state secrets, some of you have no shame ffs! Forget republican or Democrat for the moment, who the f**k does that? and how can you justify it?

If the American people are not outraged about this what would it take to get them outraged???

1. Did Manning sell this info or merely leak it?

2. I've mixed feelings about the likes of Manning and Snowden. Is it such a bad thing if the whistle is blown on government cover-ups of military f**k-ups and misconduct and warrant-less phone tapping and the likes? Outing agents and so forth is a different matter.

2
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: Today at 02:20:44 PM »
Like I said, if and when those people or yourself have something specific or substantive to offer rather than vague platitudes lamenting the alienation of these people, which has been ongoing for decades, I'll absolutely listen and discuss.

3
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: Today at 02:08:33 AM »
There will be some crying now Chelsea Manning's sentence has been commuted.

I thought the whole wikileaks thing was now considered heroic on the right?

4
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: Today at 02:07:26 AM »
It's not just me saying it......you just have your head in the sand and can't face reality.  It's going to be a very long 4 years for you

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-humiliated-democrats-working-class-231326

"It is not good enough to have a liberal elite. I come from the white working class, and I am deeply humiliated that the Democratic Party cannot talk to the people where I came from.”

Saying WHAT though??

No doubt Bernie wants stuff such as increased public assistance to combat poverty and addiction, single-payer healthcare, free public college and so forth. We know what HE thinks the Dems need to double down on.

I'm pretty sure what HE wants is diametrically opposed to what YOU, a conservative, thinks these people want from their government.

The question is what YOU think they need to do. I've laid out a list of options on which white conservatives, including working class, oppose the Democrats. So what do they need to change their approach on?

So I have now given you direct quotes from both Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden stating that the elite of the Democratic Party has turned its back on and cannot speak to the regular working people and you're still in denial that that's why you lost the election

While all the issues you list are the MOST important issues to the progressive wing of the party, my guess is that the swing voters in the swing states are more interested in jobs, education, healthcare, public safety, and college affordability.

Whitey, seriously, why bother?

Your last paragraph illustrates beautifully the confusion in the ranks of the rank and file and the disconnect between the Democratic people and the upper echelon people who are completely and utterly out of touch with their base.

You can lead a horse to water and all that but the fact is, as bad as Trump is, Clinton and the democrats are worse, you just need to look at the last eight years and the way they campaigned for the presidency, I am delighted to say they got what they deserved, not in Trump, but in losing the election, and no matter how good or bad Trump is, the country spoke and they threw the democrats out on their collective holes!

Why bother indeed when details and specifics are asked for, same as yourself.

Well we all can't see I,to the future like yourself, sure the Donald is going to tuck everything up, catch youself on man dear, be .canot be any worse than the gimp leaving office in a couple of days.

The white working class screwed nobody, they simply knew the crats took their votes as a given.

Is this a response to me?

What has any of that got to do with whitey perpetually telling us the Dems and us liberals need to cop on, but how exactly we should address our apparent issues is a mystery?

I never said the working class screwed anyone.

5
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 17, 2017, 03:10:02 PM »
It's not just me saying it......you just have your head in the sand and can't face reality.  It's going to be a very long 4 years for you

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-humiliated-democrats-working-class-231326

"It is not good enough to have a liberal elite. I come from the white working class, and I am deeply humiliated that the Democratic Party cannot talk to the people where I came from.”

Saying WHAT though??

No doubt Bernie wants stuff such as increased public assistance to combat poverty and addiction, single-payer healthcare, free public college and so forth. We know what HE thinks the Dems need to double down on.

I'm pretty sure what HE wants is diametrically opposed to what YOU, a conservative, thinks these people want from their government.

The question is what YOU think they need to do. I've laid out a list of options on which white conservatives, including working class, oppose the Democrats. So what do they need to change their approach on?

So I have now given you direct quotes from both Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden stating that the elite of the Democratic Party has turned its back on and cannot speak to the regular working people and you're still in denial that that's why you lost the election

While all the issues you list are the MOST important issues to the progressive wing of the party, my guess is that the swing voters in the swing states are more interested in jobs, education, healthcare, public safety, and college affordability.

Whitey, seriously, why bother?

Your last paragraph illustrates beautifully the confusion in the ranks of the rank and file and the disconnect between the Democratic people and the upper echelon people who are completely and utterly out of touch with their base.

You can lead a horse to water and all that but the fact is, as bad as Trump is, Clinton and the democrats are worse, you just need to look at the last eight years and the way they campaigned for the presidency, I am delighted to say they got what they deserved, not in Trump, but in losing the election, and no matter how good or bad Trump is, the country spoke and they threw the democrats out on their collective holes!

Why bother indeed when details and specifics are asked for, same as yourself.

6
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 17, 2017, 03:08:33 PM »
Joe Biden actually said it in JULY, 3 1/2 months BEFORE the election but nice try trying to play it off as an after the fact mea cupla

Doesn't change my point one bit whether he is reacting to the actual vote or a trend in polls.

1. Joe, the Dems got butt-fucked by the white working class in the election. What does this mean going forward?

2. Joe, the polls are showing a serious lack of support for Democrats among white working class. What does this mean for the election and how can the Dems avoid a butt-f**king?

7
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 17, 2017, 01:43:38 AM »
So when I say the elitists of the Democratic party have lost touch with the base you, and most people on here, jump down my neck and accuse me of all sorts of rascism and bigotry and whatever else

When I point out (with direct quotes) that several of the most prominent and respected elder statesmen of the Democratic Party hold the exact same opinion as me you still cannot accept that the Democratic Party are on the wrong path

Instead of having a little introspection and thinking  "hmmm, maybe theres something here" you discount them as "vague quotes".  All due respect, but I think Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden have a better handle on tha situation than you do

Keep worrying yourself sick about whether a guy should be able to use the ladies room....it will help you win back all those swing voters.

You'll have to point out where and when I ever accused you of racism or bigotry. I've no recollection of that.

As for the rest, YOU'RE the one doing the preaching and accusing here, so one would expect you'd at least have some handle on what or where you feel the Democrats went wrong.

I have not said whether I accept or don't accept that the Democratic party is on the right or wrong path. I haven't said anything either way.

I'm merely asking YOU, who seems so sure, what YOU think and to give us some details, given that you're telling us all how doomed the party is if they don't change their errant ways. I even laid out some issues that alienate many conservatives from the Dems, asking if the Dems need to change them to win back some voters.

We all know BOTH parties have people who come out with mea culpas after election defeats. Its a cliche at this point. What are they supposed to say? It doesn't mean, per se, that a particular election is fatal or that wholesale changes are inevitable or even necessary.

But you are saying that they ARE necessary. I'm asking you what and how, but you've nothing to say.

I've already said we know where Bernie is coming from. He wants full-on public funding of healthcare, education, minimum wage and all the rest. Even if the Dems had won the election, he'd still be working to achieve that stuff, preaching that both parties have left the "little" people behind, as he has for decades. There is a reason he has been an independent for so long.

I've no idea what Biden thinks the Dems should be doing. I suspect, given his roots, he knows all about the places like his hometown Scranton, but how receptive are a demographic like working class whites who've been moving away from the Dems since the 70s to campaigning on jobs programmes when they've unrealistic expectations about factories that left town and are scared into thinking Democrats are going to take their guns away, are giving free stuff to lazy, urban minorities and are uncomfortable with gay rights? But, I'll wait and see if he expands on what he thinks the Dems need to do.

Once again, I seriously doubt a famously liberal politician like Joe will have the same perspective YOU do on the topic, whatever your perspective is.

8
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 17, 2017, 12:43:59 AM »
It's not just me saying it......you just have your head in the sand and can't face reality.  It's going to be a very long 4 years for you

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-humiliated-democrats-working-class-231326

"It is not good enough to have a liberal elite. I come from the white working class, and I am deeply humiliated that the Democratic Party cannot talk to the people where I came from.”

Saying WHAT though??

No doubt Bernie wants stuff such as increased public assistance to combat poverty and addiction, single-payer healthcare, free public college and so forth. We know what HE thinks the Dems need to double down on.

I'm pretty sure what HE wants is diametrically opposed to what YOU, a conservative, thinks these people want from their government.

The question is what YOU think they need to do. I've laid out a list of options on which white conservatives, including working class, oppose the Democrats. So what do they need to change their approach on?

So I have now given you direct quotes from both Bernie Sanders and Joe Biden stating that the elite of the Democratic Party has turned its back on and cannot speak to the regular working people and you're still in denial that that's why you lost the election

While all the issues you list are the MOST important issues to the progressive wing of the party, my guess is that the swing voters in the swing states are more interested in jobs, education, healthcare, public safety, and college affordability.

All you're giving, again and again and again, is vague quotes with zero specifics, along with accusations of my being in denial.

I've repeatedly asked you what the Dems should do (and this is not the first time we've had this discussion), but you've nothing specific to offer.

The swing voters have taken a chance with Trump, but the likelihood is that he is going to do f**k all to address jobs or healthcare or college affordability or public safety.

Cops are a local and state issue. What can he possibly do? Tell black people to f**k off and sort out Chicago the next time a video emerges of some poor unarmed lad in Georgia or Tennessee or NYC getting shot and killed by a cop for little reason? Send the police forces some more military surplus gear to deal with protests and riots?

Healthcare - yeah, he is going to sign the repeal of Obamacare, but then what? Yes, we "know" its going to be lower premiums and deductibles and better coverage, but how? Does he have a magic wand? How is he going to address all the problems without mandates spreading the risk and subsidies and Medicaid expansion helping those who can't afford the premiums? What good is a tax break to someone who is barely earning enough to be taxed anyway?

College affordability - again - what? The GOP have been in complete control of Congress for eight of the past twelve sessions since 1994. What have they done or even proposed to address this? 

Jobs - allegedly we are going to get an infrastructure package. Obama and the Dems agitated for this for the past eight years, but the GOP refused point blank. Apparently we couldn't afford such things, despite their proven mutiplier benefit. Whereas now we can deficit spend to build an unnecessary wall (pending the Mexican government ponying up of course) and "rebuilding" the military. While a trade war will bring back long-gone manufacturing jobs and restore a failing (and terribly destructive) coal mining industry.

But yeah, I know, Trump is "talking" about these issues. And Hillary might have too, but no one cared because she is a proven liar and was running on transgender bathroom access.

9
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 16, 2017, 11:28:09 PM »
It's not just me saying it......you just have your head in the sand and can't face reality.  It's going to be a very long 4 years for you

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/bernie-sanders-humiliated-democrats-working-class-231326

"It is not good enough to have a liberal elite. I come from the white working class, and I am deeply humiliated that the Democratic Party cannot talk to the people where I came from.”

Saying WHAT though??

No doubt Bernie wants stuff such as increased public assistance to combat poverty and addiction, single-payer healthcare, free public college and so forth. We know what HE thinks the Dems need to double down on.

I'm pretty sure what HE wants is diametrically opposed to what YOU, a conservative, thinks these people want from their government.

The question is what YOU think they need to do. I've laid out a list of options on which white conservatives, including working class, oppose the Democrats. So what do they need to change their approach on?

10
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 16, 2017, 10:34:18 PM »
They should listen to their voters.....that's what they should do.(Instead they paint anyone who disagrees with the elites of the party as a bigot/fascist/homephobe/islamophobe)

If They don't wake up, they could take a hammering in 2018......I think they have to defend something like 20 Senate seats in states Trump won.  He'll play it between the ditches between now and then, but if he scores big in 2018 he will do whatever the fvck he wants for the final 2 years....and that won't be good for anyone one

How about some specifics, given that you're so adamant about where the Dems are going wrong?

Clinton won 48% of the vote. Trump 46%.

So what do the Dems need to do to swing the 0.5-1.0% it would take to tilt things back?

Say that its ok to ban muslims? Ban the building of mosques?

Deport people who were born in or entered the US as young children, speak with American accents and know no other country, back to Mexico or Guatamala? Or deport their illegal parents and split families up?

Ban all abortion outright and drive abortion back to the back alley butchers?

Say that its ok to discriminate against gay people, that they're less worthy than the rest of us? And definitely don't deserve the dignity of legally marrying and spending their lives with their same-sex partners.

Embrace the false scientific positions of the climate denial and creationist movements?

Embrace the conspiracy theorism of the right, where big government crackdown and martial law is always just one step around the corner (e.g. Jade Helm) and actual false flag operations such as Sandy Hook and Orlando are carried out with the aim of disarming the populace.

Capitulate completely in the gun debate, completely giving up on even the ridiculously modest attempts at tracking and checking backgrounds that the right ludicrously resists?

Reject the need to protect the environment and save the few remaining wild places and open everything up to drilling, mining and grazing, including the destruction of any species or habitat that stands in the way of a few short term bucks?

Embrace the right wing position that is in fact white people who are the real victims in modern society, and that minorities are taking the decent, hardworking taxpayers to the cleaners and need to shut the f**k up about being disproportionate victims of police violence and judicial injustice?

On 2018, yeah, the Dems are probably fucked, unless Trump and the GOP completely overplays their hand. So be it. The backlash will come soon enough.

11
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 16, 2017, 05:41:48 PM »
Believe whatever you want....

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/us_56f17969e4b084c672219f8a

If the prevailing ideology of the Republican establishment is that of a sneering aristocracy, Democratic elites are all too often the purveyors of a smirking meritocracy that offers working people very little.


http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/biden-admits-democrats-have-turned-white-middle-class-favor-elites

 a Hardball exclusive on MSNBC with Chris Matthews, Vice President Joe Biden admitted that the Democrat Party has turned its back on white middle-class voters and preferred latching on to elitists.

http://www.salon.com/2016/10/06/democrats-stopped-listening-to-bruce-springsteen-how-the-party-lost-its-working-class-rust-belt-base_partner/

The Democratic establishment and many in the media wonder why so many white working-class voters have abandoned the party. Unfortunately, for many of those voters, the Democratic Party feels it’s rich enough to forget their names.

But I'm not arguing that the Democrats don't have elitests amongst their number or that they might not need to work harder to court white middle class voters. I'm saying the GOP is just as if not more so elitest, hence I don't see why you feel that this one election is so significant and fatal for the Dems if elitism is so key. You quote/paraphrase the Springsteen song Youngstown at the end - which party is the steel mill owner in question forgetting his workers' names more likely to belong to?

But let's play along - what should the Dems do? Abandon the social justice/minority inclusion stuff that the GOP hypes as being against their interests? Embrace the hostility to immigrants and gays and the non-Christian? Get all in on ownership of military style automatic weapons?

12
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 16, 2017, 03:52:30 PM »
So if it doesn't appeal to Republicans it ain't funny? Or it doesn't matter? And if it doesn't matter, and no one you know watches it, what are you banging on about?

I think Republicans aren't funny. But they do matter.

However, you mustn't be a Republican, because all your twisted and turned comments (persecuted again, Whitey?) are hilarious.

I'll use up one of my "lol's" just for you

In spite of what SNL and the MSM may tell you conservatism is alive and well and thriving

When have either suggested that conservatism is not alive and well and thriving?

Creationism is demonstrably a complete load of pseudoscientific bollocks and deserving of ridicule. That doesn't mean its not thriving. As with lots of conspiracy theory nonsense.

As much as I dislike Trump personally, I think he might actually do a decent job.

The proof will be in the pudding. If you're rich he'll absolutely do a great job for you.

If you want to gut environmental or consumer or worker protections or protections for the poor or vulnerable, he, along with Paul Ryan, is absolutely your man.

Dems are very much like the Labour Party in England....they have lots to say to those on the fringes but shag all to say to the people "humping it 60 hours a week" (to quote Bill Clinton)

You're always coming out with this horseshit. As if liberals aren't also hard-working people or part of the mainstream of America.

But we'll see how Trump will do for the hard-working "real" Americans.

And who are all these people supposedly "on the fringes" that the Dems are mistakenly targeting?


Haha (can't use lol anymore).....your response in a nutshell explains why the Democrats lost.....you just can't admit that the elites and establishment of the Democratic Party no longer represent their base......the base are the people humping it 60 hours a week (I never said they were Republicans... that was your spin)

Election is decided by the swing voters in the swing states and those are the people who feel abandoned by the Democratic Party.......they voted twice for Obama and flipped to Trump and he'll probably do okay by them (or at least he'll pretend to)

You're full of shit with this "elite" bollocks whitey.

Both parties have "elites". The GOP have the business class types who, for years, have used wedge issues like guns and gays to keep THEIR base afraid of what the Dems will supposedly do once they get in power.

One election does not mean that suddenly the GOP is right and the Dems all wrong. You'd swear, listening to you, that the GOP were the ones over the past eight years calling for jobs programmes and support for those laid off during the economic collapse.

And along comes Trump who, you somewhat admit, cynically latched on to bullshit about bringing manufacturing jobs back, and suddenly its the Dems who are the out of touch elites. You admit yourself he will possibly "pretend to do okay by them", as if that is better than pushing retraining and infrastructure employment that Obama tried to offer, but which was poison because, you know, the Dems were going to take their guns away or turn the sons into fags or allow ISIS to turn America into a sharia state.

And, just to remind you, the GOP lost the popular vote yet again, and won by achieving a razor-thin margin in three states. You say yourself that Biden or Sanders may well have won. It will take f**k all to have Trump booted out of office in 2020, Democratic elite types be damned.


13
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 16, 2017, 03:08:43 PM »
So if it doesn't appeal to Republicans it ain't funny? Or it doesn't matter? And if it doesn't matter, and no one you know watches it, what are you banging on about?

I think Republicans aren't funny. But they do matter.

However, you mustn't be a Republican, because all your twisted and turned comments (persecuted again, Whitey?) are hilarious.

I'll use up one of my "lol's" just for you

In spite of what SNL and the MSM may tell you conservatism is alive and well and thriving

When have either suggested that conservatism is not alive and well and thriving?

Creationism is demonstrably a complete load of pseudoscientific bollocks and deserving of ridicule. That doesn't mean its not thriving. As with lots of conspiracy theory nonsense.

As much as I dislike Trump personally, I think he might actually do a decent job.

The proof will be in the pudding. If you're rich he'll absolutely do a great job for you.

If you want to gut environmental or consumer or worker protections or protections for the poor or vulnerable, he, along with Paul Ryan, is absolutely your man.

Dems are very much like the Labour Party in England....they have lots to say to those on the fringes but shag all to say to the people "humping it 60 hours a week" (to quote Bill Clinton)

You're always coming out with this horseshit. As if liberals aren't also hard-working people or part of the mainstream of America.

But we'll see how Trump will do for the hard-working "real" Americans.

And who are all these people supposedly "on the fringes" that the Dems are mistakenly targeting?

14
General discussion / Re: Man Utd Thread:
« on: January 16, 2017, 02:09:51 PM »
Long balls don't necessarily have to be high or down the middle.

True, but in terms of an attacking strategy, there's a difference between launching balls into a crowded box towards no one in particular and threading a long pass to the wing or behind or over the head of the centre back for a specific attacker to run on to.

Jack Charlton/Big Sam football is not the same as putting someone like Jan Molby or Paul Scholes on the ball to spray around passes and through balls from the centre of midfield.

Which is probably your actual point! :)

15
General discussion / Re: The Many Faces of US Politics...
« on: January 16, 2017, 01:58:09 PM »
You've spent the last year and a half complaining, that while of course you'd never vote Trump, the namby pamby snowflakes of the liberal left, with their safe spaces and their BLM t shirts, and their sensitive beards are wot's doing Murica down...

and then Trump wins, apparently on the back of a great manly roar from the unwashed and forgotten Real Muricans...

and now you're complaining about a sketch show...a FRICKIN' SKETCH SHOW... on the lame stream media, which you say you don't care about (which is obviously a sign that you do)... is "unfairly" doing down the conservative He Man, who responds by tweeting like a vapid Valley Girl...of which you're doing a fairly good impression yerself.

That's it. Shut down the mocha cappuccino machine, throw the fixy bikes in the dumpster and usher the hipsters towards the cliff ... irony is dead.

LOL, as you would say Whitey.



I don't care about the sketch show, because from what I can tell they have a pretty well defined audience who would most likely never vote Republican anyway.

The Lame Stream News Media then play every clip on a loop for the rest of the week in a deliberate attempt to malign just conservatives.  I expect nothing more from them

But this election cycle has shown that the power and influence of the Lame Stream News Media is waning fast and their demise is accelerating.

Grow up FFS. ;D

And on the last point, what did the 2012 election cycle show then??

We've been hearing about the impending death of the mainstream media for 25 years. And if it's becoming so irrelevant, why are you so obsessed with it. You never shut up about it!

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