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Messages - twohands!!!

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1
Armagh18, You contradict yourself in the above paragraph. True Mayo had a good side, but the results tell of nothing other than a procession of dominance by Dublin - 8 League wins in a row and 6 wins and 2 draws in Championship from 2013-2020. That's 16 times both counties met between 2013-2020. Dublin have won 14 times, 2 Draws and 0 losses!

But at least you gave them a serious game most of the time.

Outside of McGuinness outsmarting Gavin and catching them on the hop in 2014, and Kerry getting that draw when Jonny Cooper got the line in the first half, no one else has so much as laid a finger on them since you beat them in 2012.

Its Mayo misfortune that their 2010s team may have been better than quite a number of teams that actually won All Irelands over the past 25 years. I remember one of the Kerry lads commenting on here years ago that Cork were probably the second best team in the country many years, based on the relative challenges the Kerry teams faced (think he was responding to the old accusation that Kerry always had it easy and won a load of handy All Irelands). But if so, they had the misfortune of being in the same province as Kerry, and in the absence of the backdoor, are not remembered. Mayo will be though.

Was it really a case of McGuinness outsmarting Gavin in 2014?  The big factor for me was the goal conversion rate - Donegal scored 3-1 from 4 shots on goal compared to Dublin who had 5 shots on goal and missed all 5.

2
GAA Discussion / Re: Monaghan Covid Breach
« on: April 09, 2021, 03:42:12 PM »
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-poised-to-declare-bans-on-dublin-and-monaghan-managers-null-and-void-ahead-of-further-investigation-40291101.html

So Banty held the training session on his own club grounds, it just goes to show that you aren't safe anywhere!

The penalties aren't exactly a deterrent for other counties though, loss of home venue is of no relevance in the current climate. Farrell and Banty might now miss the opening championship fixture but it depends what the managerial suspension covers in terms of any potential impact this might have. If it is a complete stadium & training ban then it might have some effect but otherwise if it is just a touchline ban on matchdays then it will have little or no impact given the amount of backroom staff involved now at county level.

Given these are high profile now and the minister is even on record saying how annoyed he is, I think the GAA will be acting swiftly with a much stronger punishment. Remember these bans were put in place by the county boards of the respective counties. I think the GAA would be correct to deduct league points of counties, refuse them home advantage in games or whatever. And I say that even though I think the restriction on outdoor sport is wrong. But put yourself in the shoes of someone who has lost a relative, a job etc looking on at this carry one from Dublin and especially Monaghan.

I think the fact that this and the Dublin offence actually took place on GAA grounds plus the fact that what Cork and Down did wasn't technically against the law whereas Dublin and Monaghan did break the law will be a factor in the severity of the punishment.
Also Down and Cork made the argument that when they met up that it was a once-off breach and not an ongoing return to training. There's no way Dublin and Monaghan are going to get away with trying that defence. I would imagine the statement released when Monaghan and Dublin get punished will make a specific mention of all these factors as an explanation of why their punishment will be more than what Down and Cork got.

I did say that I felt that Dublin GAA had made a mis-step by issuing the ban to Dessie.
I did question whether they had followed correct procedure at the time.
I am a bit surprised that that the powers-that-be have actually come out and actually declared the suspensions null and void.
I thought they would basically just ignore what the county boards in Dublin and Monaghan did and impose their punishment with no reference to the county boards actions.
Another factor is that Dublin's credibility is not exactly great in terms of breaching training bans given they were called in to explain their "historical" trip to France in 2019.
It's quite clear that Dublin and Monaghan's punishments will be harsher than what Cork and Down got - the big question is by how much.

3
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 07, 2021, 03:37:12 PM »

I thought that just a covid measure? is it a permanent arrangement?

Permanent measure - GPA have been working for a good while to get this through.
Expenses/allowances have caused a world of bother over the years between county boards and squads.
Some of the worst behaviour by county board officials has been related to this - telling certain lads on panels they don't deserve it/trying to put lads who were injured off from claiming/delaying payments by months and months/massive differences in time scale between how different codes were treated. This wasn't all counties but over the years there have been some real terrible carry-on by some individuals in county boards. Croke Park taking care of it should improve matters a lot.
Story below is just one example. There were a lot of other cases over the years.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40217390.html

So in effect the individual Counties still bear the cost?

County boards were getting grants from Croke Park from when the central agreement to pay players expenses started.
County boards aren't losing out at all.
County boards also save time/money on the administration of this.

Counties are curently still allowed carry more than the 32 players and 9 backroom team but any of these additional/extra costs the county has to bear [don't be surprised if this - being allowed carry more than 32+9 - comes under pressure down the road - there was already talk that this (32+9) should be the maximum allowed in total]

What's really going to be interesting in the various county board financial accounts is the money spent on intercounty teams preparation, when these standard player and backroom expenses are taken out. Will give a clearer idea on what counties are spending on intercounty preparation over the standard allowances to players.

These measure should benefit a lot of the weaker teams in the less popular codes e.g. hurling in a lot of counties and football in some of the hurling counties.

For a lot of managers the fact that the expenses/allowances for a squad of 32 players and a backroom team of 9 expenses are guaranteed and administered by Croke Park for pre-season training,league and championship without having to go anywhere near the county board will be a massive plus. I'd say if you looked at a lot of intercounty squads they came nowhere near having expenses covered for 32 players and 9 backroom staff.

It's not going to solve all the issues around the cost of intercounty teams but it is a step forward, especially for the players on teams lower down the divisions.

4
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 03, 2021, 05:29:05 PM »
They're all entitled to the same official expenses but it's a major burden on small Counties' Boards.
Also Western and rural Counties bear a dispropriate burden.
Central GAA should pay them for a set number of weeks, say from 1st December or whenever till County finishes its Championship run - early June for most in the new split Season model.
Also some percentage of sponsorship needs pooling too.

Croke Park have taken over the administration of the players and backroom staff mileage and expenses scheme since last year.
Each county squad (both hurling and football) are entitled to expenses for 32 players and 9 backroom staff.
Grants from Croke Park to each county have been reduced as a result.



5
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 07:46:14 PM »
https://www.dublingaa.ie/news/dublin-gaa-statement-on-behalf-of-management-committee

Dublin GAA acknowledge that, following an investigation this afternoon, there was a breach of Covid-19 guidelines yesterday morning.

The County Management Committee have suspended Dublin Senior Football manager Dessie Farrell for 12 weeks with immediate effect.

The Dublin senior football management and players recognise that this was a serious error of judgement and apologise unreservedly for their actions.

Dublin GAA Management Committee

At least Dessie is taking his medicine and isn't brazen enough to appeal the punishment. They must have been training for a while (like other counties) to have a photographer out there at that hour morning of the morning to catch them. Can't have any complaints and at least they dealt with it quickly and decisively

There could well be issues with regards to Dublin's GAA right to suspend him and whether due process was followed by acting so quickly.

Be some disaster for Dublin GAA if Farrell appeals his suspension.

Also could be a bit of a tactical mistake as the CCC will surely ask for the copies of the evidence and the arguments Dublin GAA made to suspend Dessie and will use the same in their case against him.
You can hardly get another 8/12 week suspension for the same crime under the same rule? If that's the case why would Dublin issue any suspension at all

The CCC will most likely punish him as well.  There's close to zero chance they don't. The offence they will be charging him under will be bringing the association (the GAA) into disrepute.

I would say the reason Dublin would issue a suspension is in the hope that it would make things go away on the PR front/try and mitigate the severity of any punishment handed down by the CCC. 

Also handing down an immediate suspension means the clock starts running now. A 12 week suspension starting immediately would expire on the 24th of June. In the Cork and Down cases it was something like 6 weeks between the offence occurring and the clock starting on the suspensions.

This feels like a mis-step by Dublin GAA to me.

If Dessie gets a 2nd ban he'll probably appeal that. GAA HQ have set a precedent when they suspended the other county managers. I don't see how they charge him with anything they didn't charge the other managers with and if it's the same offence as what the dubs punished him for he'll appeal on those grounds.

It says alot about the farcical nature of the GAA disciplinary system that people think Dublin county board somehow made a mistake in acting so quickly and decisively. If they hadn't done anything they'd have been criticized for that.

I'm not a lawyer but I very much think it would be a situation similar to being punished for state and federal crimes in the USA.
The fact that you are charged at one level doesn't give you protection from being charged at the other level.
Think of it this way - if it was the case that being punished by the DCB offered protection from the CCC punishing him, the DCB could simply suspend Farrell for a day, suspend the players for 15 minutes and thumb their noses at the CCC.

The reason I mentioned the speed of the punishment is that the GAA disciplinary system (and pretty much every justice system) have rules and procedure about the accused having time to prepare a defence/make their case/seek advice/ bring along an advocate. If Dessie challenges his DCB punishment, the speed with which the punishment was handed down (less than 24 hours after the story broke) will look very bad. I agree if they hadn't done anything they would have been criticized but if they had issued a statement expressing regret and that they were going to conduct an investigation (similar to the GAA statement)  I don't think most people would have an issue with it.

I wonder were other groups of players training together elsewhere?

There's no way that the other Dublin players weren't training together elsewhere.

There's no logical case you can make that it was only these 9 players who decided to break the rules.

Also someone had to have spotted at least one previous session and tipped off the Independent, they weren't just wandering about North Dublin and stumbled upon the story.

It's three weeks until training is allowed and I don't think anyone is going to try and make the case that Dublin were just going to have this single training session with a third of the squad and they pack away their gear for three weeks - so Dublin were planning on breaking the rules multiple times.

This means that multiple training sessions occurred and more were planned.

The big question is whether the CCC will take this into account in determing  Dublin's punishment.

6
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 06:52:09 PM »
Wonder will any of the "Official partners" decamp?
Wonder will Central GAA have the balls to put manners on Dublin or will they hide behind the DCB suspension?

There's no way that the powers-that-be can hide behind the DCB suspension even if they wanted to [can't help but think the DCB are wishing Johnny Horan was still in place] - Cork and Down would both have very strong cases to have the loss of their home match overturned.

None of sponsors will decamp now but it definitely is a blow to the Dublin brand.

7
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 06:22:12 PM »
https://www.dublingaa.ie/news/dublin-gaa-statement-on-behalf-of-management-committee

Dublin GAA acknowledge that, following an investigation this afternoon, there was a breach of Covid-19 guidelines yesterday morning.

The County Management Committee have suspended Dublin Senior Football manager Dessie Farrell for 12 weeks with immediate effect.

The Dublin senior football management and players recognise that this was a serious error of judgement and apologise unreservedly for their actions.

Dublin GAA Management Committee

At least Dessie is taking his medicine and isn't brazen enough to appeal the punishment. They must have been training for a while (like other counties) to have a photographer out there at that hour morning of the morning to catch them. Can't have any complaints and at least they dealt with it quickly and decisively

There could well be issues with regards to Dublin's GAA right to suspend him and whether due process was followed by acting so quickly.

Be some disaster for Dublin GAA if Farrell appeals his suspension.

Also could be a bit of a tactical mistake as the CCC will surely ask for the copies of the evidence and the arguments Dublin GAA made to suspend Dessie and will use the same in their case against him.
You can hardly get another 8/12 week suspension for the same crime under the same rule? If that's the case why would Dublin issue any suspension at all

The CCC will most likely punish him as well.  There's close to zero chance they don't. The offence they will be charging him under will be bringing the association (the GAA) into disrepute.

I would say the reason Dublin would issue a suspension is in the hope that it would make things go away on the PR front/try and mitigate the severity of any punishment handed down by the CCC. 

Also handing down an immediate suspension means the clock starts running now. A 12 week suspension starting immediately would expire on the 24th of June. In the Cork and Down cases it was something like 6 weeks between the offence occurring and the clock starting on the suspensions.

This feels like a mis-step by Dublin GAA to me.

8
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 06:05:57 PM »
https://www.dublingaa.ie/news/dublin-gaa-statement-on-behalf-of-management-committee

Dublin GAA acknowledge that, following an investigation this afternoon, there was a breach of Covid-19 guidelines yesterday morning.

The County Management Committee have suspended Dublin Senior Football manager Dessie Farrell for 12 weeks with immediate effect.

The Dublin senior football management and players recognise that this was a serious error of judgement and apologise unreservedly for their actions.

Dublin GAA Management Committee

At least Dessie is taking his medicine and isn't brazen enough to appeal the punishment. They must have been training for a while (like other counties) to have a photographer out there at that hour morning of the morning to catch them. Can't have any complaints and at least they dealt with it quickly and decisively

There could well be issues with regards to Dublin's GAA right to suspend him and whether due process was followed by acting so quickly.

Be some disaster for Dublin GAA if Farrell appeals his suspension.

Also could be a bit of a tactical mistake as the CCC will surely ask for the copies of the evidence and the arguments Dublin GAA made to suspend Dessie and will use the same in their case against him.

Any team has the right to suspend players or managers for rulebreakimg

Of course they do - the thing is did they follow proper procedure in doing this.

If Farrell is ok to carry the can they they are probably fine but if he isn't willing to go along with things it could get massively messy.

9
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 05:58:01 PM »
https://www.dublingaa.ie/news/dublin-gaa-statement-on-behalf-of-management-committee

Dublin GAA acknowledge that, following an investigation this afternoon, there was a breach of Covid-19 guidelines yesterday morning.

The County Management Committee have suspended Dublin Senior Football manager Dessie Farrell for 12 weeks with immediate effect.

The Dublin senior football management and players recognise that this was a serious error of judgement and apologise unreservedly for their actions.

Dublin GAA Management Committee

At least Dessie is taking his medicine and isn't brazen enough to appeal the punishment. They must have been training for a while (like other counties) to have a photographer out there at that hour morning of the morning to catch them. Can't have any complaints and at least they dealt with it quickly and decisively

There could well be issues with regards to Dublin's GAA right to suspend him and whether due process was followed by acting so quickly.

Be some disaster for Dublin GAA if Farrell appeals his suspension.

Also could be a bit of a tactical mistake as the CCC will surely ask for the copies of the evidence and the arguments Dublin GAA made to suspend Dessie and will use the same in their case against him.

10
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 03:25:11 PM »
The very worst case scenario re insurance would be if one of the 9 got injured they wouldn't be covered. Absolutely no impact on Innisfails insurance cover generally.

Ignoring Covid for a sec (and I'm sure someone from Innisfails knew about it), but do you need formal permission to train on a GAA pitch? In the past I often organised early morning or late summer evening sessions when I knew there'd be plenty of room at my local GAA club,  with a 5 or 6 kids (son, nephew, friends) and a bag of balls - usually just fun stuff like scoring practice. Never once sought permission.

I don't agree about the impact in Innisfails insurance.
You 100% need formal permission to train on a GAA pitch.
If anything happened at any of the sessions you organised you would be personally liable.
I remember hearing that the GAA basically is forced to punish individuals who are caught in order to keep their insurance.
The vast vast majority of the time a blind eye is turned to this but given the publicity and the nature of insurance companies I wouldn't be a bit surprised to see Innisfails in bother over this.



11
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 02:55:46 PM »
I fookin hate the Indo and everyone and everything associated with it. I equate GAA people buying the Indo with Liverpool fans buying the Sun.

So my starting point here is doubly biased!

Somebody got a tip and decided to hide and use a long range photo lens to take pics of some Dublin players taking part in non-contact outdoor training. And the Indo thinks that's front page news.

Yes, they did wrong and against the rules. Everyone knows what they're doing is low risk, but still against the rules. It's a problem because they were caught and they (all GAA counties really) are held to a high standard. The punishment is already out there with precedent. The leading coach in attendance gets a 8 to 12 week ban and the players get off scot free. The GAA decided that was sufficient punishment/deterrant in the Cork and Down cases, when they could have gone harder (or lighter). Apparently there was a coach there, but not Dessie. So that coach gets the ban.

I think a home game ban is also part of the precedent punishment. So that should certainly be imposed too here.

That won't wash. Cork and Down managers received suspensions and so should Dessie Farrell. There's no way this was arranged without his authority. In fact, given that John Costello's son was one of the player's, it should call into account his role at the helm of the county board.

Croke Park made a specific point in one of their COVID regulations releases that county chairpersons could be held personally responsible. Neither the Down or Cork chairperson admitted knowledge of what was going on from what I recall so the powers that be couldn't do anything to them. However what Dublin GAA admit will be key.

The fact that this took place on GAA property might throw up extra issues. Neither the Cork or Down incidents occurred on GAA property.
Who was responsible at Innisfails for opening the pitch?
Who told them to do it from the Dublin side of things?
Whoever did it can hardly claim that they got a physic vision that 9 members of the Dublin squad and a coach would be randomly turning up at half six in the morning.
I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't issues in relations to Innisfails insurance policy.
I wonder if there is a chance this might void Innisfails insurance cover - this seems very much seems like something that would void an insurance policy.
Or might Innisfails have to report the individuals in question for tresspassing to avoid this? Some folk at Innisfails could well be looking at very severe punishments i.e lifetime ban.

Calm down.

Jesus Christ. Talk about getting carried away.. lol lifetime bans lol...
Dessie should get jail time. And Fenton should probably do a stretch as well... f**k it, put them all in jail and throw away the key.

I clearly stated that the lifetime bans was in relation to the people at Innisfails - I meant the people at the Innisfails club who knew about this/facilitated it, not the Dublin players involved - there are some very heavy sanctions on the GAA books in relation to allowing non-authorised people use pitches [up to lifetime bans] which I'm pretty sure is due to the GAA's insurance company.

It might well be the case of Innisfails having to opt between imposing a lifetime or year(s) ban on some individuals at the club who facilitated this or not being covered by insurance [which would effectively mean the death knell for the club]

12
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 02:17:52 PM »
I fookin hate the Indo and everyone and everything associated with it. I equate GAA people buying the Indo with Liverpool fans buying the Sun.

So my starting point here is doubly biased!

Somebody got a tip and decided to hide and use a long range photo lens to take pics of some Dublin players taking part in non-contact outdoor training. And the Indo thinks that's front page news.

Yes, they did wrong and against the rules. Everyone knows what they're doing is low risk, but still against the rules. It's a problem because they were caught and they (all GAA counties really) are held to a high standard. The punishment is already out there with precedent. The leading coach in attendance gets a 8 to 12 week ban and the players get off scot free. The GAA decided that was sufficient punishment/deterrant in the Cork and Down cases, when they could have gone harder (or lighter). Apparently there was a coach there, but not Dessie. So that coach gets the ban.

I think a home game ban is also part of the precedent punishment. So that should certainly be imposed too here.

That won't wash. Cork and Down managers received suspensions and so should Dessie Farrell. There's no way this was arranged without his authority. In fact, given that John Costello's son was one of the player's, it should call into account his role at the helm of the county board.

Croke Park made a specific point in one of their COVID regulations releases that county chairpersons could be held personally responsible. Neither the Down or Cork chairperson admitted knowledge of what was going on from what I recall so the powers that be couldn't do anything to them. However what Dublin GAA admit will be key.

The fact that this took place on GAA property might throw up extra issues. Neither the Cork or Down incidents occurred on GAA property.
Who was responsible at Innisfails for opening the pitch?
Who told them to do it from the Dublin side of things?
Whoever did it can hardly claim that they got a physic vision that 9 members of the Dublin squad and a coach would be randomly turning up at half six in the morning.
I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't issues in relations to Innisfails insurance policy.
I wonder if there is a chance this might void Innisfails insurance cover - this seems very much seems like something that would void an insurance policy.
Or might Innisfails have to report the individuals in question for tresspassing to avoid this? Some folk at Innisfails could well be looking at very severe punishments i.e lifetime ban.


13
GAA Discussion / Re: Money, Dublin and the GAA
« on: April 01, 2021, 12:59:13 PM »

Unfortunately this feeds into the saga of last year where for right or wrong the GAA was perceived as not taking Covid seriously. We aren't even back yet and rules are broken. Fine and bans is fair and just.

I'd imagine that based on the Cork and Down precedents that it will be the case that Dublin GAA will be charged as opposed to the individual players.

However there are a couple of differences from the Down and Cork offences, which might affect the severity of the punishments.

Do Dublin try to claim this was a one-off? Both Down and Cork basically made the argument that what they were doing a one-off session.

The fact that there was only 9 members of the squad present and the time frame in terms of when intercounty teams are allowed return to training (April 19th) means that the odds of anyone accepting this was just a one-off session where 9 members of the squad were training and the rest were sitting at home on the sofa twidlding their thumbs are fairly remote.

I'd imagine the GAA will call in the Indo journalist who found out about this. Odds are he was tipped off by someone, so the chances of this being the first early morning training session are fairly remote. I'm sure that Croke Park will be asking about how many more training sessions were planned.

Does Dessie Farrell come out and accept that he knew this was going on or does he try to plead ignorance (and look like  a complete liar and a muppet) ?

The powers-that-be will surely be asking questions about whether the rest of the Dublin squad were training, where and how often.

Do Dublin GAA take the risk that there isn't more evidence of training sessions out there?

One other difference from the Down and Cork cases is that this took place on the GAA grounds; I would expect Innisfails GAA to be punished as well. Fine if I had to guess. Possibly ban for their chairperson as well.

Looking at the pictures one of those involved looks like Cormac Costello [I'm not 100%]. Bit awkward for Daddy.

Guards will surely be involved and I'd imagine all involved will be fined.

14
GAA Discussion / Re: The GAA is "misogynist!"
« on: January 08, 2021, 02:09:18 PM »
Well said, Alan.

The fact that the author of the piece made no reference whatsoever to the LGFA or the Camogie Association in her piece really betrays her utter lack of knowledge on the subject.

15
GAA Discussion / Re: Retirements
« on: January 08, 2021, 02:06:09 PM »
Kyle Coney Tyrone.

A great minor

Sometimes more of an insult than a compliment?

Yeah the longer it's said about a player the worse it becomes.

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