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Messages - Zulu

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1
Would that be the Dublin beaten in the league final and narrow winners of the All Ireland after a replay against Mayo? I didn't see anyone talk about splitting Dublin on this thread anyway. Besides, that's not going to happen so unless you want to talk about a purely hypothetical scenario we may as well focus on the more realistic alternatives.

All sports are dominated by a few teams so the focus shouldn't be on weakening the strong but making the weak stronger. Kildare, Meath, Louth, Down, Wicklow, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Antrim are all performing below their capacity and despite the doom merchants around here players like Connolly, Cluxton, Brogan or Flynn are not easily replaced. Despite showing huge promise as an underage player Cormac Costello hasn't set the IC scene alight for example.

The solution isn't to split counties it's to pit counties of similar ability against each other more.

Reservoir Dubs doesn't count, Zulu.

This all boils down to two diametrically opposed positions - you want a system that only strengthens and uplifts the few, whereas most want a system that uplifts all areas that are passionate about the sport and allows them to compete at the highest level. Sadly some don't understand that a tiered system is never going to achieve that goal. No county that is regularly playing at Inter is ever going to be any better prepared to compete at Senior if and when they make it there. The elitism of hurling being superimposed on our sport would make me lose interest in it very fast.

Amalgamation and, in the case of Dublin and Cork, splitting is preferable to a tiered system because at least the former isn't a death sentence for interest in inter-county for those unfortunate counties stuck outside the top 8 or 12.

Will you please stop talking bollocks for a minute?

Amalgamations and splitting teams wouldn't be a death sentence for interest, are you bonkers? You may as well suggest our IC teams play soccer to develop the GAA as to suggest Cork and Dublin be split. So if you want to propose solutions that haven't a hope in hell in ever happening then carry on talking to yourself.

Again, I don't actually support the tiered format of junior, intermediate and senior but it's clearly a load of rubbish to suggest playing intermediate will hinder you at senior. Loads of teams at various levels have climbed the ladder to compete at the highest level. Your argument lacks any logic, why would a mid ranking team playing in the current format improve by playing and losing to the odd top team but couldn't improve by playing regular football every second week against teams they can compete against? If they are the best of that bunch then they'll be able to compete against the weaker top teams at least. There's actually so little sense to what your arguing that I could be here all day picking holes in it.

2
Quote
i still hear people saying Ulster is competitive when it's clearly not, the same few teams win it every year. The Ulster championship is terrible and is only marginally more competitive than the rest because it has more middling teams and no great team. It's still the best one we have though and that tells it's own tale.

Tyrone won the Ulster championship for first time in years last year and anyone of Monaghan,Donegal,Tyrone could win Ulster this year. No other provincial has 3 teams that are capable of winning their province at this moment in time and those three teams are established division one teams and for as terrible as Ulster is as you claim sides like Fermanagh,Armagh not currently capable of winning Ulster were still able to reach the All Ireland quarter final recently  and give a very good account of themselves.

Yes, there may be three potential winners but it's the same three that have been there for a decade. I accept there are more middling teams which means more can get to a QF but there are no All Ireland winners in Ulster at the moment.

3
Would that be the Dublin beaten in the league final and narrow winners of the All Ireland after a replay against Mayo? I didn't see anyone talk about splitting Dublin on this thread anyway. Besides, that's not going to happen so unless you want to talk about a purely hypothetical scenario we may as well focus on the more realistic alternatives.

All sports are dominated by a few teams so the focus shouldn't be on weakening the strong but making the weak stronger. Kildare, Meath, Louth, Down, Wicklow, Galway, Cork, Armagh and Antrim are all performing below their capacity and despite the doom merchants around here players like Connolly, Cluxton, Brogan or Flynn are not easily replaced. Despite showing huge promise as an underage player Cormac Costello hasn't set the IC scene alight for example.

The solution isn't to split counties it's to pit counties of similar ability against each other more.


4
GAA Discussion / Re: Galway v Mayo 11/06/17
« on: May 29, 2017, 02:17:26 PM »
Quote
a foul out the field

Seriously dude, you know in your heart of hearts that that was not a foul.
Terrible call by the ref.
That's up there as one of the hardest fairest shoulders i have ever seen.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQZemthWLLA&feature=youtu.be

One of the fairest shoulders youve seen?? A fair shoulder isn't hitting an open player before he's even collected the ball, or shouldering to the chest. What's the difference between that, and jumping in shouldering a midfielder while he's in the air contesting a kickout? Neither player has collected the ball. In a more psychical game with massive hits, American Football, Boyles hit would be called hitting a defenseless receiver and would warrant a huge fine. It was a scummy hit against a 20 year old debutant that would lay him out if he got him fairly these days

Watch from 12 seconds (slow motion clip) .... now tell me, honestly, does the Galway player have the ball before Boyle hits him (yes ... he has his 2 hands out in front of him with the ball before Boyle hits him from what i can see) and is it into his shoulder or chest (shoulder from what i can see).
One of us needs glasses....


in fairness if you watch it in slow motion. The galway player has the ball and it is shoulder to shoulder. And it matter little or nothing if either of us are correct!

Picture perfect shoulder. The odd thing is a shoulder to the chest is not a free in hurling yet a perfect shoulder that rattles a man is nearly always a free in football. Not sure why that is.

5
Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail.

The thing people who point to Senior/Inter/Junior in hurling and club never seem to point out is that there is little to no interest by the public in the lower tiers. They may be of interest to the players and a few dozen die-hards, but that's the extent of their impact or value towards the bottom line of the GAA. I'd say in the case of hurling at least it's clear most of the competitions run at a significant deficit.

When you're talking about a level where thousands follow their team even in smaller counties it's a very different matter. The GAA doesn't run on magic beans and it's the money-spinning senior football championship that by-and-large funds those other tiers in hurling and football.
Syf, a very famous American journalist once onserved that nobody even went broke by underestimating the taste of the public. RTE's audience would watch 2 flies on a window if it was called sport and analysed at half time.
For a lot of people the GAA is the summer and they will go to matches as long as the standard is watchable and the prices are reasonable

Have to agree with Syf on this. There is no interest in the general public for a 2/3 tier competition. The crowds would be poor and many would look down their nose on such competitions. The Sunday game would give games from these tiers the usual couple of minutes coverage in the evening Highlights program. The Top tier would just get bigger and stronger as Money from Sky and various media outlets would be pumped back into the Bigger counties as reward for their achievements. So the gap would get bigger and bigger! I know Mayo won the Nicky Rackard last year and our local Hurling Club had the Cup many times. Few knew what it was and only the odd person like myself had pictures of the Kids taken with it. I know Hurling is a different Animal. As north of the Midlands there is virtually little nothing of the game played and if it is it is generally of a poor standard.

There is no quick fix of this continuous problem. I say continuous because this problem has been there since the foundation of the Gaa and more so since the intercounty scene kicked in in the 20's (?) where before this a Club represented the county. Because of the Varying sizes and populations of Counties there is always going to be an imbalance.

To properly fix a lot of these problems would probably mean amalgamations of smaller counties and Franchises to create multiple entities for larger counties like Cork and Dublin. Would the Population have an appetite for a change in traditional boundaries? I don't think so! Would a Longford/Westmeath team be happy to win a Leinster and All Ireland title as one entity? Or would they just be happy to plod along and do what they have done for the past 100+ years? For me that is the only way forward! But it is to radical and we as a GAA nation are too stuck in our traditional ways!

Personally, I think all teams have to have a shot at the All Ireland which is why I'd prefer linking the league to the championship which gives you the tiered format, a trophy all teams can aim to win, knockout football but everyone still has a chance to win Sam. Now you can debate the correct format all day but the reality is that the provincials have no place in it. Play them as stand alones if you want but they must be removed from the championship proper.

I still hear people saying Ulster is competitive when it's clearly not, the same few teams win it every year. The Ulster championship is terrible and is only marginally more competitive than the rest because it has more middling teams and no great team. It's still the best one we have though and that tells it's own tale.

We still have a great sport but the competition formats we have and the sterility of managers approach to the game is killing it as a spectacle. Like a previous poster said, I wouldn't encourage kids to watch the game anymore as it would only put them off it. Better to just to play now if you want to enjoy the game.


6
Get rid of the provincials. They mean fcuk all.

They are needed to fill new stadia in Cork and Belfast.

No, they're not. You think Cork v Kerry will fill the new park at the moment? Or most Ulster championship games will fill a new Casement?

Time to go to bed, Paraic.

Someday, as a self improvement strategy, try to go through a full 24 hours without talking complete bollocks.

7
Get rid of the provincials. They mean fcuk all.

They are needed to fill new stadia in Cork and Belfast.

No, they're not. You think Cork v Kerry will fill the new park at the moment? Or most Ulster championship games will fill a new Casement?

8
A two tier championship will be the final nail in the coffin for the GAA in the counties in the 2nd tier. THEY ALREADY HAVE A LEAGUE BASED ON PERFORMANCES AND DO NOT WANT ANOTHER COMPETITION PLAYING THE SAME TEAMS. Is it that hard for people to grasp?
Every team sport in the world is dominated by 3/4 teams and everyone plays for pride.  The GAA is based on local rivalries and that pride is of even more significance.
We do not need more competitions - we need the league played in better weather, perhaps at the same time as the championship. Shorten the season, stop chasing money and restore the importance of club activity where county players can take meaningful part.
Provincial titles provide 4 opportunities to counties to win a significant competition; granted Leinster is under the cosh of Dublin but too may of the Leinster counties are accepting it as a fait accompli and are beaten before they start. You have to take you that off to Westmeath who have reached the last two finals and were competitive for first  35 minutes each year. Bigger counties like Meath and Kildare should be more capable of taking on the Dubs and if they did the Leinster Championship would be in pretty good health.

The Leinster championship is under the cosh of one county? What about Munster or Connacht? Even the Ulster championship is limited to two or three teams and has been for many years. There isn't a provincial championship worth watching anymore. The league is way better than the provincials and every year the evidence keeps piling up but some people keep trying to tell us that a once in a 100 years win for some county is reason enough to keep a format that is failing our sport.

9
You said this -

"Again, the blindingly obvious reason it wouldn't be a success is because supporters have no interest in these so-called merit-based tiers and will not trek half the country to see some random match-up of counties. The Quailifers and the league have shown us this in graphic detail."

I pointed out that this is rubbish but you now say it's because it's a division one game? Of course the games involving the best teams will generate bigger crowds and the most populated counties will bring have bigger crowds but you claim people aren't interested in going to games if it's not down the road and against a local rival, that's clearly nonsense. Why is Roscommon v Leitrim better than Dublin v Mayo?



10
Jesus man, that's utter nonsense. There was about 20,000 at the Cavan Dublin league game and huge crowds at many other league games. You talk about the provincials like they are not dying on their feet when the evidence is they are.

Why are you talking about traveling half the country to see random match ups (whatever the blue blazes they are? Is the All Ireland final one of these random match ups?). Roscommon supporters could probably get to 10 non-Connacht counties in not much more time to get to some county grounds within the province. Offaly, Westmeath, Longford all boarder Roscommon. Meath, Cavan, Fermanagh, Laois, Tipp or Kildare not a million miles away. Other counties wold be even better set.

If Waterford had beaten Cork it would have been brilliant for them but an upset like that once every second generation isn't better than giving every Waterford footballer over an 80 year period a proper season. The provincial system means that most IC footballers in Ireland are just waiting for their season to end after the league. Linking the league to the championship would give every footballer a pathway to the bigtime and supporters more genuine contests.

Even supporters of the provincials acknowledge they would have no value if they weren't linked to the championship whereas the league is growing in strength as a stand alone competition so imagine the crowds and passion if played in April and May with all teams at full strength.

11
GAA Discussion / Re: Top 8 teams in the country
« on: May 12, 2017, 04:14:31 PM »
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.

It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra 1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.

Granted, but as rosnarun points out there are plenty of wealthy sports entities that fail to achieve much. I remember listening to someone on the radio talk about the population of Cavan when they were winning All Irelands being much bigger than now. Talent will always be the biggest factor and you are likely to have more talent with bigger populations. It's not the only factor but it is the main one in the GAA IMO. In professional sports any sports team with money can buy the players you need, you could give Longford all the money in the world and they still wouldn't be All Ireland champions anytime soon. Give Longford town all the money in the world and they'd certainly be the best team in Ireland by the end of the year.

12
GAA Discussion / Re: Top 8 teams in the country
« on: May 12, 2017, 10:33:02 AM »
There are a hundred and one factors that go into a county being competitive. Money is, of course, one of those factors and an important one at that but it isn't the defining one. Population is the defining factor. Every now and again a county will stump that, like Monaghan currently, but the trend will always be defined by population as it always has.

Seafoid, did you look at the relative size of populations in counties that were successful?




13
GAA Discussion / Re: Top 8 teams in the country
« on: May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM »
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.

It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra 1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

14
GAA Discussion / Re: Top 8 teams in the country
« on: May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM »
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

15
General discussion / Re: Proof there is no god.
« on: May 10, 2017, 07:53:01 PM »
Not sure I follow. I don't believe there is a God because I have seen nothing to suggest there is and the Gods have changed over the years and even now, we can't agree on what or who God is. It seems odd to me there are different Gods or that the current Gods weren't even always the ones we believed in. Why did people think Zeus was a God at one time but now nobody gives the Greek Gods credence?

Does that not say more about us than about God?

Does it not just say we don't know there is a God so we make up entities that represent one? I understand that people from ancient history would see the world in terms of an all seeing creator. They couldn't comprehend many things but science has explained a lot of what we didn't understand even 200 years ago.

I think we'd all like to believe there is something after this life. It's understandable that meeting our friends and relatives again and being rewarded for living a good life would appeal. This is particularly so when life is tough, as it has been for the majority throughout history. Is it a coincidence that as more and more people live lives of plenty that they have less attachment to a God?

I can't convince myself there's a God but if others do that's fine. However, if I accept someone saying the Christian God is real and should equally accept a guy who tells me Zeus is the only true God. Neither person can prove to me they are right and I can't prove either is wrong. Is the Christian God to be accepted more purely because it has the numbers now and the Greek Gods don't?

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