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Messages - Drummer

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1
GAA Discussion / Re: Kerry v Mayo - Super 8s Round 1
« on: July 17, 2019, 03:58:06 PM »

Yes and the starting position of the attacking midfielder - i.e. coming from behind - is generally more advantageous for that type of kickout.  In this day and age a goalkeeper should not be making kickouts contestable if possible; he should be given as much of an advantage to his own players as possible.  I agree though that we should have been more aggressive for some of the kickouts the last day.  Also, Vaughan's aerial ability is very limited so that certainly didn't help.

Why do you say that the attacking midfielder is usually coming from behind? Surely both midfielders are free to position themselves as they see fit. As an aside, Coen / Boyle / Keegan  should have been in there blocking the run of Moran for these kickouts instead of letting him have free reign

If Clarke was able to ping a long kickout accurately, O’Shea or Vaughan wouldn’t need to worry where Moran or Spillane positioned themselves.  Moran knew the type of kickout that was coming so ensured that he was coming at it from behind. 
In general it is too risky for a defending midfielder to deliberately play his man from behind on his own kickouts.  Unless he has 100% confidence in the keeper’s ability to reach him with a long kick over the head of his marker.

Absolutely a pinged kickout is better so it can be won uncontested.

I disagree on the "too risky" bit though, Moran was winning every ball uncontested, it literally couldn't get much worse.

I'll leave it at this but imo, the blame for the kickout fiasco is collective for every player 1-12 and in particular the coaching team. It'll be interesting to see how we deal with this if Meath push up at the weekend or when Donegal (as they surely will) push up in castlebar.

I agree that the blame doesn't lie solely at Clarke's feet (excuse the pun).  But a kickout that hangs high in the air is of little or no benefit to any kickout strategy in the modern game.  Hence you don't see it from any of the keepers these days.
Yes indeed will be interesting to see what we do in the next couple of games.

2
GAA Discussion / Re: Kerry v Mayo - Super 8s Round 1
« on: July 17, 2019, 03:41:24 PM »

Yes and the starting position of the attacking midfielder - i.e. coming from behind - is generally more advantageous for that type of kickout.  In this day and age a goalkeeper should not be making kickouts contestable if possible; he should be given as much of an advantage to his own players as possible.  I agree though that we should have been more aggressive for some of the kickouts the last day.  Also, Vaughan's aerial ability is very limited so that certainly didn't help.

Why do you say that the attacking midfielder is usually coming from behind? Surely both midfielders are free to position themselves as they see fit. As an aside, Coen / Boyle / Keegan  should have been in there blocking the run of Moran for these kickouts instead of letting him have free reign

If Clarke was able to ping a long kickout accurately, O’Shea or Vaughan wouldn’t need to worry where Moran or Spillane positioned themselves.  Moran knew the type of kickout that was coming so ensured that he was coming at it from behind. 
In general it is too risky for a defending midfielder to deliberately play his man from behind on his own kickouts.  Unless he has 100% confidence in the keeper’s ability to reach him with a long kick over the head of his marker.

3
GAA Discussion / Re: Kerry v Mayo - Super 8s Round 1
« on: July 17, 2019, 02:48:04 PM »
[Not unlike Clark’s which are tailor made for a Willie Joe and a David Moran. I mentioned here after Roscommon game that this would happen when Clark replaced Hennelly and ye would not listen.

I've seen this written in several places, can someone explain to me how it was different for AOS and Moran catching the ball based on the trajectory?


McDanger, the problem with a “scooped” kick out that hangs high in the air before it lands is that it completely favours the opposition midfielder (e.g. David Moran), who invariably is coming from behind to attack the ball. 

Moran knows that his marker (e.g. O’Shea) has little or no space to run into for a short option due to the extremely high press that Kerry have in place. 
He knows that Clarke can’t drive it with distance and pace into the space between midfield and the Kerry half line as Patton, Cluxton or Beggan can do.
He knows that Clarkes mid-long range kicks tend to hang in air before landing.

So for those kick outs it gives Moran the chance to stand a few yards behind O’Shea.  Coming from a few yards behind to attack a hanging kickout is a significant advantage.
(i)   It gives Moran much more of a running jump than O’Shea
(ii)   While jumping it allows Moran to use his momentum to plough into O’Shea in a fair manner.
Meanwhile O’Shea is trying to contest the kickout with very little of a run or worse still from a standing position.  There’s only going to be one winner when you’re up against a good fetcher like Moran. This happened numerous times in the first 20 minutes last Sunday, to both O’Shea and Vaughan.

A keeper with more of a “pinging” kickout style finds it much easier to give a more advantageous option to his midfielders (and other team mates) i.e. a quicker, lower trajectory kickout into a small pocket of space that allows his target the chance to run on to it without giving the opposition the chance to gather around where it lands.  This is much needed when a team presses high up like Kerry did in the first half. 

Ideally the keeper should also be able to hit a Mayo runner attacking the space beyond midfield. Doing that once or twice would keep Kerry honest and force them to pull back on their high press.

In saying the above, let me finish by stating that I have huge admiration for Clarke both as a keeper and as a person.  Also, I am not advocating for Hennelly to be reintroduced for the Meath game.  But we badly need to start looking at a better long term option.

The advantage of a "pinged" kickout only really applies when you're playing it to a runner, basically it reaches him quicker and gives the opposition less time to react/intercept.

For the hanging / scooped kickout (as you've already discussed with ms), it's more to do with the starting position of the fielder than the kickout naturally favouring the opposition. Which brings me back to my original point that Clarke's kickouts don't necessarily favour either side, just that they're potentially more contestable - on Sunday though, we weren't even contesting them ffs so the problem was much more than just who's between the sticks



Yes and the starting position of the attacking midfielder - i.e. coming from behind - is generally more advantageous for that type of kickout.  In this day and age a goalkeeper should not be making kickouts contestable if possible; he should be given as much of an advantage to his own players as possible.  I agree though that we should have been more aggressive for some of the kickouts the last day.  Also, Vaughan's aerial ability is very limited so that certainly didn't help.

4
GAA Discussion / Re: Kerry v Mayo - Super 8s Round 1
« on: July 17, 2019, 01:14:33 PM »
[Not unlike Clark’s which are tailor made for a Willie Joe and a David Moran. I mentioned here after Roscommon game that this would happen when Clark replaced Hennelly and ye would not listen.

I've seen this written in several places, can someone explain to me how it was different for AOS and Moran catching the ball based on the trajectory?


McDanger, the problem with a “scooped” kick out that hangs high in the air before it lands is that it completely favours the opposition midfielder (e.g. David Moran), who invariably is coming from behind to attack the ball. 

Moran knows that his marker (e.g. O’Shea) has little or no space to run into for a short option due to the extremely high press that Kerry have in place. 
He knows that Clarke can’t drive it with distance and pace into the space between midfield and the Kerry half line as Patton, Cluxton or Beggan can do.
He knows that Clarkes mid-long range kicks tend to hang in air before landing.

So for those kick outs it gives Moran the chance to stand a few yards behind O’Shea.  Coming from a few yards behind to attack a hanging kickout is a significant advantage.
(i)   It gives Moran much more of a running jump than O’Shea
(ii)   While jumping it allows Moran to use his momentum to plough into O’Shea in a fair manner.
Meanwhile O’Shea is trying to contest the kickout with very little of a run or worse still from a standing position.  There’s only going to be one winner when you’re up against a good fetcher like Moran. This happened numerous times in the first 20 minutes last Sunday, to both O’Shea and Vaughan.

A keeper with more of a “pinging” kickout style finds it much easier to give a more advantageous option to his midfielders (and other team mates) i.e. a quicker, lower trajectory kickout into a small pocket of space that allows his target the chance to run on to it without giving the opposition the chance to gather around where it lands.  This is much needed when a team presses high up like Kerry did in the first half. 

Ideally the keeper should also be able to hit a Mayo runner attacking the space beyond midfield. Doing that once or twice would keep Kerry honest and force them to pull back on their high press.

In saying the above, let me finish by stating that I have huge admiration for Clarke both as a keeper and as a person.  Also, I am not advocating for Hennelly to be reintroduced for the Meath game.  But we badly need to start looking at a better long term option.


Did you see the one where AOS kicked Spillane in the head?

No I missed that.  What's your point?

A hanging kickout favours the better fielder who judges it best....not "attacker" or "defender".

Fair enough if it's a kickout into space that gives both players the chance to attack it.  That was not the case with Clarke's kickouts on Sunday.
Having said that Moran probably is a better fielder than O'Shea.  And he's certainly far better than Vaughan.


I think that's the point though. If Clarke was the Kerry keeper in the same situation I'd expect Moran to win those kickouts too.

Don’t think he’d have anywhere near the same success as he had on Sunday. If the roles were reversed I’d expect that O’Shea would at least be able to break a high percentage.
Kerry midfield on Sunday didn’t even have to break the ball, such was the advantage they were given by the kickouts. 

5
GAA Discussion / Re: Kerry v Mayo - Super 8s Round 1
« on: July 17, 2019, 12:21:31 PM »
[Not unlike Clark’s which are tailor made for a Willie Joe and a David Moran. I mentioned here after Roscommon game that this would happen when Clark replaced Hennelly and ye would not listen.

I've seen this written in several places, can someone explain to me how it was different for AOS and Moran catching the ball based on the trajectory?


McDanger, the problem with a “scooped” kick out that hangs high in the air before it lands is that it completely favours the opposition midfielder (e.g. David Moran), who invariably is coming from behind to attack the ball. 

Moran knows that his marker (e.g. O’Shea) has little or no space to run into for a short option due to the extremely high press that Kerry have in place. 
He knows that Clarke can’t drive it with distance and pace into the space between midfield and the Kerry half line as Patton, Cluxton or Beggan can do.
He knows that Clarkes mid-long range kicks tend to hang in air before landing.

So for those kick outs it gives Moran the chance to stand a few yards behind O’Shea.  Coming from a few yards behind to attack a hanging kickout is a significant advantage.
(i)   It gives Moran much more of a running jump than O’Shea
(ii)   While jumping it allows Moran to use his momentum to plough into O’Shea in a fair manner.
Meanwhile O’Shea is trying to contest the kickout with very little of a run or worse still from a standing position.  There’s only going to be one winner when you’re up against a good fetcher like Moran. This happened numerous times in the first 20 minutes last Sunday, to both O’Shea and Vaughan.

A keeper with more of a “pinging” kickout style finds it much easier to give a more advantageous option to his midfielders (and other team mates) i.e. a quicker, lower trajectory kickout into a small pocket of space that allows his target the chance to run on to it without giving the opposition the chance to gather around where it lands.  This is much needed when a team presses high up like Kerry did in the first half. 

Ideally the keeper should also be able to hit a Mayo runner attacking the space beyond midfield. Doing that once or twice would keep Kerry honest and force them to pull back on their high press.

In saying the above, let me finish by stating that I have huge admiration for Clarke both as a keeper and as a person.  Also, I am not advocating for Hennelly to be reintroduced for the Meath game.  But we badly need to start looking at a better long term option.


Did you see the one where AOS kicked Spillane in the head?

No I missed that.  What's your point?

A hanging kickout favours the better fielder who judges it best....not "attacker" or "defender".

Fair enough if it's a kickout into space that gives both players the chance to attack it.  That was not the case with Clarke's kickouts on Sunday.
Having said that Moran probably is a better fielder than O'Shea.  And he's certainly far better than Vaughan.



6
GAA Discussion / Re: Kerry v Mayo - Super 8s Round 1
« on: July 17, 2019, 11:34:50 AM »
[Not unlike Clark’s which are tailor made for a Willie Joe and a David Moran. I mentioned here after Roscommon game that this would happen when Clark replaced Hennelly and ye would not listen.

I've seen this written in several places, can someone explain to me how it was different for AOS and Moran catching the ball based on the trajectory?


McDanger, the problem with a “scooped” kick out that hangs high in the air before it lands is that it completely favours the opposition midfielder (e.g. David Moran), who invariably is coming from behind to attack the ball. 

Moran knows that his marker (e.g. O’Shea) has little or no space to run into for a short option due to the extremely high press that Kerry have in place. 
He knows that Clarke can’t drive it with distance and pace into the space between midfield and the Kerry half line as Patton, Cluxton or Beggan can do.
He knows that Clarkes mid-long range kicks tend to hang in air before landing.

So for those kick outs it gives Moran the chance to stand a few yards behind O’Shea.  Coming from a few yards behind to attack a hanging kickout is a significant advantage.
(i)   It gives Moran much more of a running jump than O’Shea
(ii)   While jumping it allows Moran to use his momentum to plough into O’Shea in a fair manner.
Meanwhile O’Shea is trying to contest the kickout with very little of a run or worse still from a standing position.  There’s only going to be one winner when you’re up against a good fetcher like Moran. This happened numerous times in the first 20 minutes last Sunday, to both O’Shea and Vaughan.

A keeper with more of a “pinging” kickout style finds it much easier to give a more advantageous option to his midfielders (and other team mates) i.e. a quicker, lower trajectory kickout into a small pocket of space that allows his target the chance to run on to it without giving the opposition the chance to gather around where it lands.  This is much needed when a team presses high up like Kerry did in the first half. 

Ideally the keeper should also be able to hit a Mayo runner attacking the space beyond midfield. Doing that once or twice would keep Kerry honest and force them to pull back on their high press.

In saying the above, let me finish by stating that I have huge admiration for Clarke both as a keeper and as a person.  Also, I am not advocating for Hennelly to be reintroduced for the Meath game.  But we badly need to start looking at a better long term option.

7
General discussion / Re: Anastasia Kriegel
« on: June 20, 2019, 12:36:04 PM »
The bottom line is this:
Given Boy B's involvement and the evidence against him, then irrespective of whether he should have been convicted of murder or not, he deserves whatever punishment (plus more) is coming his way.

8
OK, Lar and Drummer. In the O'Mahony years Mayo would have lost that game. That's all I'm saying. Why the hell I brought 'Mortimer's club' into it is anybody's guess ;D, but let's just say there were a few Shrule men on the panel at that time.

Well Farrandeelin, it's worth pointing out that there were just as many, if not more, Knockmore players knocking around during the same period i.e. McLoughlin, Howley, Kilcoyne, Munnelly.   So I wouldn't be so quick to blame S/G players for failures during O'Mahony's time in charge.  In fact I wouldn't point the finger at any individual player or group of players in relation to those losses.  If the same system and style of play was in place during those years as we currently have then it's likely results would have been alot different. 

It's also worth pointing out that "there were a few Shrule men on the panel" on plenty of occasions during the 00s when Mayo displayed the grit and spirit required to win big games, games which were significantly more important than last Sunday.  So I think you should give a bit more thought in future before making such lazy and uninformed comments about a club who have served Mayo teams as prominently as any other club during the last 15 years or so.

9
You know Cosmo, you have put a decidedly positive spin on my post and seen as it's getting late. I won't state anything negative in my brief synopsis of the game. I, like yourself am having to eat humble pie about Barry Moran. Also fair play to the lads for having the guts to come back to win. Under a previous regime where Mortimer's club, this more than likely would not have happened. Anyway, well done to the lads. True there are lots of things to learn from. I'll post about them tomorrow night sometime.

Farrandeelin, would you mind clarifying what you mean in reference to "Under a previous regime where Mortimer's club"?

10
GAA Discussion / Idea to Improve Football
« on: March 28, 2012, 12:58:02 PM »
Folks,
Just something I've been thinking of lately ....
Why don't the GAA introduce a rule whereby any player seen to commit a third man tackle should automatically be given a yellow card, irrespective of the circumstances?

For me, the lenient treatment of third man tackles is one of the main reasons why football is a less attractive game to watch than it used to be.  Removing this from the game would significantly improve the pace of the game and should return the free flowing nature of gaelic football which has been lost recent years. 

In the absence of any official rule to prevent mass defences, extra defenders etc. I believe automatic yellow cards for third man tackles is the single easiest way that we can improve the "modern" game, and I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be introduced.

It's something that would be easy to understand for players, mentors and spectators, and easy to judge for referees/linesmen/umpires.

What do you think?


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