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1999 - The re-ermergence of Armagh.

I recall a debate with Sammy G(may have been on OWC & must have been a few years later) where he claimed he only saw a few NI 'flegs' and most were red & white checked ones.  Shuuuuuure !!!!!

Don't forget that prior to the 1999 European games, Ulster played to crowds of a few thousand at most, and all the gear available to supporters now just didn't exist.  The team plays in red and white so a large number of people did have the red and white NI flag.  I'm sure some had a political motive for using this flag but it shouldn't be interpretated that everyone was making some sort of political statement.

These days at Ravenhill and at away games, you still get some red and white NI flags, but you also get red and yellow Ulster provincial flags, red and white checked flags and I've also seen the flags of Greenland, Yemen and the Japanese naval ensign (all of which are red and white...)

If Ulster make the knock-out stages of the HEC again, you can expect to see some NI flags, an assortment of others including the Ulster provincial flag and sponsors getting on the bandwagon with Ulster Rugby flags just as Leinster and Munster do.

Edit: the Maltese flag as well...

However, that is not how I see the game now. From what I observe, the onset of professionalism in rugby union originally led the powers that be (correctly) to conclude that Irish rugby would struggle to maintain four fully-professional teams, to compete in the Magners and Heineken etc, and also to contribute international-quality players to the Ireland team. So first poor Connacht was effectively cast aside, and now we see Ulster being marginalised, as Munster and Leinster establish their dominance over senior rugby on the island. Which from a purely professional club  point of view actually makes sense, since there is no point in dissipating limited resources on one or two struggling teams at the expense of two more successful teams who could better utilise them.

However, the effect of this shift of power within Professional club rugby has also been transferred to the international team, which is now basically seen as a Munster/Leinster select, with the odd Ulster player thrown in. One of the results of this shift in ethos is seen, for example, in the way money has been found by the IRFU to keep star players like Brian O'Driscoll playing his club rugby for Leinster, rather than follow the money to England or France etc. Similarly, I get the impression that they were determined to keep O'Gara with Munster, but wouldn't have cared had David Humphries gone to England, as his brother did.
And I would be interested to compare IRFU funding for Thomond with that allocated to redeveloping Ravenhill (or selling Ravenhill to help fund a new, larger ground for Ulster rugby elsewhere in NI). Of course Munster rugby is on a high - and long may it continue. But this overlooks the fact that for more than the first century of its existence, Ulster's position amongst the Irish Provinces was at least as eminent as either Leinster or Munster. Normally, of course, these things come in cycles; for example, Ulster was the first Irish team to win the Heineken Cup, as recently as nine years ago, and with 13 Ulster-born players, plus a completely assimilated Kiwi who represented Ireland, and one solitary non-Irish player.

However, the way things are going at the moment, if Ulster don't somehow close the gap within the next few years, I fear that the IRFU's prioritisation (bias?) will see Ulster permanently left behind by M & L, to the long-term detriment of the game in the northern Province.

There is too much looking for conspiracy theories here.  The simple answer is that Ulster haven't been good enough on the pitch and haven't had the quality of players compared to Munster and Leinster.  If you look back on the Ulster, Munster and Leinster squads of 4 years ago, and 8 years ago, you'll see that Munster, and to a lesser degree, Leinster, have managed to maintain a core of 6-8 international standard players over this period.  That sort of quality and experience delivers results.  Go back 4 years, and Ulster has had almost 100% squad turnover. Go back another 4 years, and it is almost 100% again.  The home-grown and imported players just haven't been good enough. Successive coaches have tried to build quality squads but have failed, for a variety of reasons.  In the case of Mark McCall, it was because he simply wasn't a good enough coach when it came to man management.

In terms of why Ulster has been so poor, part is probably cyclical.  Ulster had their "golden generation" in the 80s when they won all inter-pros for years and regularly contributed 7 or 8 to the Ireland team.  Perhaps the 00s will be Munster and Leinster's golden generation?  Time will tell - ROG and BOD increasingly look as if their best days are behind them.  But the other reason is structural.  Rugby is still largely a grammar school sport in Ulster and in the late 90s/early 00s a very large proportion of the grammar school output were leaving N Ireland, going to uni in GB and were basically lost to Irish rugby.  You could have predicted that Ulster were going to be poor from the low representation on age group teams at the time.  Establishment of an Ulster academy structure meant that talent could be identified earlier and kept at home.  Players like Ferris are some the first academy output and only now beginning to mature.  In Munster, the focus is more on the club scene than schools, and in Leinster and Munster, school leavers generally go to uni in Ireland.

Regarding resources, it isn't a case of the IRFU only spending money on the two favoured sons - the provinces are expected to increasingly pay their own way.  Look at Munster and Ulster's respective records in the HEC during the 00s.  Munster have been in 9 Quarter Finals, 7 Semi Finals and 4 Finals.  Ulster has been in 0 QFs, 0 SFs and 0 Finals.  That has given Munster a massive financial boost compared to Ulster - it is nothing to do with IRFU prioritisation. Winning games and good facilities puts money in the bank - isn't that how it goes in pro sport?

I'd agree that the financial gap between the provinces is now such that it will be very difficult for Ulster to overcome it.  Munster now has a culture where they expect to win every game while Ulster's culture seems to be trying not to lose too many.  Leinster and Munster both have good stadium facilties while politicians in N Ireland have prevaricated for years.

It is very tempting for some in Ulster to blame the IRFU, but look at the facts.  The people that run Ulster Rugby are Ulstermen, the coaches that weren't good enough were Ulstermen, the vast majority of the teams that have never won a HEC game in England or France have been Ulstermen, the players whose egos wrecked the ML winning team of 05/06 were Ulstermen, the politicians who haven't been able to agree on stadium plans are also Ulstermen.  Blame for the state of Ulster rugby lies in Ulster.

Regarding some specific points that you mentioned in your post:
- There is a tax break for professional sportsmen in the ROI that makes it attractive for players to stay and retire in Ireland.  All things being equal, salaries can be less as benefits come after retirement.  Ulster competes in the GB market for player wages, along with teams like Leicester and the Ospreys.
- David Humphreys DID go to England.  He started his pro career with London Irish.  What brought him back? The IRFU giving him a professional contract.  His brother went to England as he is on the record that he wanted to play for Ulster but wouldn't as long as his big bro was there, as he would always be in his shadow.
- The IRFU has given Munster a loan covering 50% of Thomond Park development with the rest being funded by the Munster branch (through debenture sales and the like).  I believe the loan + interest will be paid back over 10 years.  Understandably, the IRFU has been waiting to see what happens with the Maze... without getting into that whole debate, what has been shameful is the lack of a decision, one way or the other, from the muppet show at Stormont.  UR is also stuck when it comes to developing Ravenhill - because of planning and zoning, capacity can't be increased , and it is zoned as parkland so isn't worth anything to developers.  It could be on the cards for the IRFU to build a new stadium for UR, but they'll want to finish off the Lansdowne Rd development and have some decisions from Stormont first.

Obviously not mike when you have players threatening to pull out of the squad unless it is changed. I think you will find if the team was bigger than what you say then the issue of the anthem wouldn't be an issue. wake up to reality.

Who is threatening to pull out of the squad unless it is changed? flegs'n'anthems is a perennial subject for debate on message boards, but rugby is a professional sport - a player can "threaten to pull out" all they want - it would just mean they are in breach of their employment contract and they are out of a job.  Irelands Call has been played for over 10 years now.  If someone doesn't like it, they shouldn't have gone for the job as a professional rugby player aspiring to make the Ireland team in the first place.

(ps if a player is threatening to pull out, I hope it is ROG - he is playing like a drain  )

why then have a team claiming to do it if you can't get something as simple as a song??

Because from a rugby fan's perspective, the team and the game are a lot more important than a song.

This Ireland team is clearly not. This is very noticeable when the anthem is being played. The first England game in croker where we had some of the Irish lads in tears for the anthem whilst others were standing about motionless.

Singing or not singing an anthem isn't just about politics.  Jerry Flannery doesn't sing A na B or Ireland's Call.  Neither does Rory Best.  Maybe hookers can't sing, but more likely each player will have their own way of preparing themselves for the game.  Some will sing - some won't - whatever the anthem.

you may have been under the misapprehension that Irelands Call has something representative specific connection to the Unionist tradition

No, not at all, and I think you would need to have a seriously bigoted mind to come to that conclusion.  But what I do have a problem with is the dropping of the National Anthem at away games, and even more so, lame attempts at trying to excuse the fact as to why it should be dropped.   

You can't be "dropped" if you've never played in the first place.  A na b has never been played for Ireland's away games.

Why does the Irish National Anthem not get treated with equality along side Ireland's Call? 

Because it isn't equal. Like it or not, Irelands Call is used to represent the Irish Rugby Football Union in its entirety. A NA B doesn't do that.

thanks mikerob. was it the same for the soccer  games?  did the Welsh/Scottish do their own or GSTQ for internationals. dates again would be nice

I don't know - I'm not a soccer fan!

i'm not trying to catch you out but when was this? and back in the day, did they use GSTQ?

Certainly in the 1980s, the Scotland Rugby team used to have Scotland the Brave and GSTQ before their games.  Nobody knows the words of Scotland the Brave and the Scots increasingly used to boo GSTQ.  When it was Scotland v Wales, both sets of supporters booed GSTQ so loudly that you could hardly hear it. That got very embarassing for the SRU as Princess Anne goes to all their home games and the crowd were slagging off her ma. The SRU then decided (sometime in the 90s) to replace GSTQ and STB with Flower of Scotland which had become the team's de facto anthem.

Now they have moved from playing A NA B both home and away to introducing a new song for home  

The Ireland rugby team has NEVER used A NA B for away games.  Prior to the introduction of Ireland's Call, Ireland didn't have an anthem for away games. The home team's anthem was played, and that was it (although apparently there was some embarassment at the 1987 world cup when the Rose of Tralee was played 

Knowing from the onset that the anthem was A Na B when they became an All Ireland body then they should have objected at this stage.

The IRFU was founded in 1879 so pre-dates both partition and A Na B.

However, Mr Poots said: "It would be unacceptable to produce an all-black rugby team...

Errr.... Edwin.... www.allblacks.com   ?   

Anyone recommend a decent pub in London to watch the Rugger buggers tonight? Preferably central enough.

I assume you mean Munster v Leinster rather than Ulster v Edinburgh... if so the M v L game is bring shown at Waxy O'Connors (http://www.waxyoconnors.co.uk/london/whatson.asp) and I also know it is being shown at O'Neills Great Queen St in Covent Garden as well.

[still]

Your comparison with Twickewnham is total bullshit, since there are literally dozens of trunk routes, dual carriageways and 6 lane Motorways which can get drivers to and from Twickenham. Moreover, there are thousands of car parking spaces available just across the A316* from the Ground. Plus there are any number of bars and refreshment facitlities both within and near the ground itself, to allow fans to stagger their journey times, unlike the Maze. Plus there is a main Railway line, with two stations, which is in easy walking distance of Twickenham. Additionally, the Piccadilly Line Tube runs almost as close to the Stadium as the NIR rail line is to the Maze at its closest point. Plus there is an extensive Bus Service serving that part of SW London seven days a week (augmented on matchdays)

And still it takes hours to get to and from Twickenham on matchdays, which is why they limit the number of events allowed to be staged there.

P.S. Have you ever actually attended a game at Twickenham?


* - The A316, like the (so-called) M1 in NI, is actually a dual carriageway, with the same number of lanes (more in places). It passes within 150 yards of Twickenham.

Pedestrians have got to cross the A316 to get from Twickenham Railway station to the stadium so before and after a game, traffic on this road is at a total standstlll.  It may be a dual carriageway but because the majority of pedestrians leaving the stadium have to cross it, it is useless as a trunk route to get cars away from the stadium to the M3/M4 for some time after a big game.

Events are restricted at Twickenham because the stadium is in a primarily residential area and big events cause a lot of inconvenience to residents - there are controlled parking zones, you can't easily drive in and out of the area, thousands of people walk down your road if you live on a route to the ground, people who've had too much to drink relieving themselves in your driveway, litter from fast food joints all over the place.... Its a wealthy area, the residents are organised and have the local borough's ear if they reckon things are going too far.

The closest comparison in Belfast would be Ravenhill where the local residents are none too thrilled by the large increase in attendances and the number of Ulster Rugby matches over the last 5 years.  That is why there is very little chance of any significant expansion of Ravenhill's capacity.

Oh FFS here we go again. Ulster Rugby have said they are staying at Ravenhill and have already started upgrading it. They said they'd prefer a second Belfast stadium for larger matches but if the Maze is built they will use it if required. Hardly anybodys definition of 'agreeable'.

Most recent statement from Ulster Rugby is here

The UB/IRFU's minimum commitment to the stadium was 3 x European Cup games annually and an Autumn International every other year.

In my view they are hedging their bets (quite sensibly) as the Magners League inter-pro games against Munster and Leinster also sell-out Ravenhill, so if the finances work for European Cup games at a new stadium, then they'll switch the other Ravenhill sell-out games there as well.

... for anyone that is interested, you can find information about Sport NI's Stadia Safety program here