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Messages - Cat and Cage

#1
Quote from: Jinxy on October 03, 2016, 09:49:57 PM
Sez physics.

"Proof by emphatic assertion."

Look, believe whatever you want to believe. Personally I think you're in denial. Any player who tries the same thing runs a serious risk of getting a black.
#2
Quote from: Jinxy on October 03, 2016, 08:43:28 PM
Quote from: Cat and Cage on October 03, 2016, 06:41:21 PM

That's only part of it. There was a fuller clip floating around that I can't find now, showing the few seconds just before this. Keegan reaches across with his left hand and grabs Connolly's jersey on the chest area, then swings around and we see the rest of the clip you've shown. The whole effect is of Connolly being pulled down. If it was the jersey grab alone, or the clip you show alone, then ok, it would seem harsh.

Even as it was he could well have gotten away with it, fair enough. But I don't see how you can get from there to saying it's definitely not a black card. He was all over Connolly and Connolly went down, he's at risk.

I'll explain it to you in greater detail so.
Connolly was not deliberately pulled down.
So either he got a black card for one of the other four listed offences, such as a deliberate trip, or Deegan was wrong.

Sez you.
#3
Quote from: Jinxy on October 03, 2016, 11:48:34 AM
Here is the Lee Keegan black card.

https://twitter.com/Sportstalkdotie/status/782258063302590464

Watch the Keegan incident and ignore him altogether.
Just watch Connolly.
He is not pulled down.
I'm not even all that sure he's being fouled, but the hand over the shoulder probably merits a free-in at most.
At no point does Keegan make contact with him below the shoulder.

That's only part of it. There was a fuller clip floating around that I can't find now, showing the few seconds just before this. Keegan reaches across with his left hand and grabs Connolly's jersey on the chest area, then swings around and we see the rest of the clip you've shown. The whole effect is of Connolly being pulled down. If it was the jersey grab alone, or the clip you show alone, then ok, it would seem harsh.

Even as it was he could well have gotten away with it, fair enough. But I don't see how you can get from there to saying it's definitely not a black card. He was all over Connolly and Connolly went down, he's at risk.
#4
Quote from: moysider on October 03, 2016, 01:54:36 AM
Quote from: Cat and Cage on October 03, 2016, 01:29:40 AM
Quote from: blast05 on October 02, 2016, 11:08:06 PM
Good God, i've just watched Keegans black card...... i'm dumbstruck. Connolly dived (he did NOT end up on the ground through interference from Keegan so therefore it could not be a black card by the letter of the law).
Connolly talked Deegan into giving the black card - pathetic
Christ, no sleep again tonight after watching that.

I'm normally a neutral but this time was strongly for Mayo.

However: the Keegan black was what the black was brought in for in the first place. He brought Connolly down. The only confusion arises because he's skillful about it: he makes it look as if he's just jostling a bit and lets go quickly when the damage is done. But c'mon. He went for a result and he got it.


The black card rule is clear. The player has to be pulled down, not go to ground as a result of a pull or drag. That's just a free or penalty. The referee should not factor in intent unless it is dangerous play (that's yellow or red anyway)  and clearly that was not an issue there. The issue about it being a scoring opportunity doesn t come into it either as others have suggested.

You prompted me to look up the rule. I'm not so sure I can agree that it's clear!

The summary on gaa.ie says its for cynical fouls:
"Deliberately pull down an opponent.
Deliberately trip an opponent with the hand(s), arm, leg or foot.
Deliberately body collide [the official guide just says "collide"] with an opponent after he has played the ball away or for the purpose of taking him out of a movement of play.
Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate.
Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official."

Small's case must be exhibit A (I think), or what's the point of the rule? If he must get off because he grabbed an ankle not to pull down Moran but instead stop him scoring a goal, then there's something amiss. Maybe the third part is the one that fits: he has acted for the purpose of taking him out of a movement of play. (Is grabbing someone's ankle a "body collide"? Debatable.) If he intended to trip, then the second part fits, but did he? He acted deliberately to hold Moran back, sure, but trip him? Debatable again.

I'd prefer to judge Small as deliberately taking Moran out of a movement of play, with a broad definition of "collide". The alternative of judging it not a black card seems to be too literalist.

Keegan was deliberately keeping Connolly out of a movement of play--I assume that's not in dispute. Did he "collide" with him enough to qualify for a black card? I'd say yes--it wouldn't have been outrageous if he had gotten away with it but all the same he seemed to cross a line.

(Hennelly? Hmm.)
#5
Quote from: blast05 on October 02, 2016, 11:08:06 PM
Good God, i've just watched Keegans black card...... i'm dumbstruck. Connolly dived (he did NOT end up on the ground through interference from Keegan so therefore it could not be a black card by the letter of the law).
Connolly talked Deegan into giving the black card - pathetic
Christ, no sleep again tonight after watching that.

I'm normally a neutral but this time was strongly for Mayo.

They were unlucky. Victory can look inevitable in hindsight and there are many Dublin supporters who think the result was predestined but Mayo could easily have won that given one or two breaks.

However: the Keegan black was what the black was brought in for in the first place. He brought Connolly down. The only confusion arises because he's skillful about it: he makes it look as if he's just jostling a bit and lets go quickly when the damage is done. But c'mon. He went for a result and he got it.

On the other hand Deegan bottled it completely on Small. A far clearer case. Simple cowardice on Deegan's part.

On another point I have to agree with those who thought this was a high quality game. It was immense. I have many good memories of the old days but standards were not higher and in many cases were much lower.
#6
Quote from: barelegs on August 24, 2015, 09:46:15 AM
John Bannon didn't think much of Deegan's refereeing

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/john-bannon-maurice-deegan-display-erratic-349833.html

Almost fell off my chair when I read this.

That would be John Bannon, the worst referee in the history of the universe? The one who reffed the Kerry-Armagh drawn semi-final in 2000? I never saw anything as bizarre before and hope I never do again.