Messages

if you do something, say not vote against a genocide its only ok if you do it in your own self interest. 

self interest is a handy excuse... someone should tell the Israel and Russia to use this.

 

When you're on your knees and fighting for the very existence of your country then yes, I'd say it's excusable to abstain on a vote that could harm you. You have the luxury of sitting on your high horse while not having to endure random missile attacks or the possibility of freezing to death this winter. How nice for you.
 

on there knees, a few posts back you said they weren't losing.

Israel and Russia have and do use excuses for there actions all based on their own interests, that is a massive part of the issue.

I also said they aren't currently winning either. I'd say everything that Ukraine has endured over the past almost 2 years fits the description of being on your knees.

Israel and Russia are aggressors. Ukraine is defending itself. Big difference.

if you do something, say not vote against a genocide its only ok if you do it in your own self interest. 

self interest is a handy excuse... someone should tell the Israel and Russia to use this.

 

When you're on your knees and fighting for the very existence of your country then yes, I'd say it's excusable to abstain on a vote that could harm you. You have the luxury of sitting on your high horse while not having to endure random missile attacks or the possibility of freezing to death this winter. How nice for you.
 

A US Intelligence report (reported in UK Times today) states that Russia has lost 315,000 men (dead & injured). Loses in personnel & armoured vehicles have set Russian military modernisation back 18 years.

That's devastating.
I genuinely feel for the normal Russian people who are suffering as a result of Putin's war mongering.
Of course the Ukrainians are suffering much more, but there are no winners here no matter what the outcome is.
Given the way this invasion has went and the lack of progress in pushing Russian forces further back, it looks like this is going to be a long term war.
Ukraine need that international support, especially from the US, and it might not come until after the next US election. Without it, Russia may be able to advance. With it, stalemate seems to be the likely outcome.
Ultimately there will have to be a political answer but unfortunately I think that means many more deaths until both sides are willing to concede something.
Russia don't deserve anything but will probably increase their land mass on the back of this invasion.

A peace deal that involves Ukraine ceding any land to Russia will not only be a great injustice but also won't bring peace, it will merely kick the can down the road as Russia will rebuild it's military and relaunch in 2-3-4 years time. The Minsk Agreements didn't bring peace and neither will some sort of Minsk 3. Russia does not honour peace agreements.

Unfortunately it does look like a stalemate thanks to western dithering over arms and allowing Russia time to build their fortifications. It also looks like the US doesn't want a Ukrainian victory merely a weakened Russia. There can be no other explanation for the slow feed of weapons given the amount of armaments the US is sitting on.

A US Intelligence report (reported in UK Times today) states that Russia has lost 315,000 men (dead & injured). Loses in personnel & armoured vehicles have set Russian military modernisation back 18 years.

All completely unnecessary. The murdered Russian journalist Anna Politkovskaya put it well when she said:

'Putin, having accidentally got the grip of huge power, disposed of it with catastrophic consequences for Russia. And I don't like him because he doesn't like people. He cannot stand us. He despises us. He believes that we are a means for him, and nothing more. A means to achieve his personal power goals. So he can do everything he wants to us – to play as he pleases. To destroy us at his will. We are nobody. And he, although he accidentally cut in the queue, is now the king and god, whom we must worship and fear.'

[when your very survival is reliant on aid and weapons from a wavering US]

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

They [rightly in my view] asked for, expected and accepted worldwide support for their resistance to an invasion by Russia.

They sought support for their stance in the UN criticising the invasion and used Russia's flagrant targetting of civilians and civilan infrastructure as a means of garnering sympathy and support for their cause.

Their gutless abstention the other night completely undermines that cause in my view. Using the targetting of civilians as means of raising support for your own cause but not showing an iota of empathy for an  even greater war crime is despicable.

I am fairly certain that a large percentage of people will share that view and that there will be a massive decrease in support for the Ukrainian cause as result of this. And rightly so.

You say all this with the luxury of not having Russian missiles raining down on your head and having to rely on certain allies for your survival. But sure, according to you, more Ukrainian children should now die because of the political situation Ukraine finds itself in. You're an idealistic fool.

Yeah I am sort of foolish like that tbf. Chagrined now that you've pointed it out.

Silly old me, I Find myself liking people more when they vote against dropping high explosives on babies than when they don't.

Wish I was a bit more sensible and pragmatic like yourself, maybe when I grow up who knows.

The Ukrainians know all about having high explosives dropped on them. I'm sure all they need is a good dose of your idealism to see them through this tight spot they're in.

which makes their decision to abstain even odder

Not really, when your very survival is reliant on aid and weapons from a wavering US. And an abstention is not a vote against, as I've pointed out many times already.

so you keep saying. An abstention may not be a vote against but it is certainly not a vote for. And as I said, it's odd from Ukraine. Until you consider that Zelensky is pretty much pro israel

There are 40 Million Ukrainians. Zelensky is not Ukraine.

many of whom are suffering at the hands of russia in the same way Palestinians are suffering at the hands of israel. Odd decision from Ukraine

IMO quite understandable given their reliance on the US. I wish it were otherwise. The US is an unreliable ally.

[when your very survival is reliant on aid and weapons from a wavering US]

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

They [rightly in my view] asked for, expected and accepted worldwide support for their resistance to an invasion by Russia.

They sought support for their stance in the UN criticising the invasion and used Russia's flagrant targetting of civilians and civilan infrastructure as a means of garnering sympathy and support for their cause.

Their gutless abstention the other night completely undermines that cause in my view. Using the targetting of civilians as means of raising support for your own cause but not showing an iota of empathy for an  even greater war crime is despicable.

I am fairly certain that a large percentage of people will share that view and that there will be a massive decrease in support for the Ukrainian cause as result of this. And rightly so.

You say all this with the luxury of not having Russian missiles raining down on your head and having to rely on certain allies for your survival. But sure, according to you, more Ukrainian children should now die because of the political situation Ukraine finds itself in. You're an idealistic fool.

Yeah I am sort of foolish like that tbf. Chagrined now that you've pointed it out.

Silly old me, I Find myself liking people more when they vote against dropping high explosives on babies than when they don't.

Wish I was a bit more sensible and pragmatic like yourself, maybe when I grow up who knows.

The Ukrainians know all about having high explosives dropped on them. I'm sure all they need is a good dose of your idealism to see them through this tight spot they're in.

which makes their decision to abstain even odder

Not really, when your very survival is reliant on aid and weapons from a wavering US. And an abstention is not a vote against, as I've pointed out many times already.

so you keep saying. An abstention may not be a vote against but it is certainly not a vote for. And as I said, it's odd from Ukraine. Until you consider that Zelensky is pretty much pro israel

There are 40 Million Ukrainians. Zelensky is not Ukraine.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

They [rightly in my view] asked for, expected and accepted worldwide support for their resistance to an invasion by Russia.

They sought support for their stance in the UN criticising the invasion and used Russia's flagrant targetting of civilians and civilan infrastructure as a means of garnering sympathy and support for their cause.

Their gutless abstention the other night completely undermines that cause in my view. Using the targetting of civilians as means of raising support for your own cause but not showing an iota of empathy for an  even greater war crime is despicable.

I am fairly certain that a large percentage of people will share that view and that there will be a massive decrease in support for the Ukrainian cause as result of this. And rightly so.

You say all this with the luxury of not having Russian missiles raining down on your head and having to rely on certain allies for your survival. But sure, according to you, more Ukrainian children should now die because of the political situation Ukraine finds itself in. You're an idealistic fool.

Yeah I am sort of foolish like that tbf. Chagrined now that you've pointed it out.

Silly old me, I Find myself liking people more when they vote against dropping high explosives on babies than when they don't.

Wish I was a bit more sensible and pragmatic like yourself, maybe when I grow up who knows.

The Ukrainians know all about having high explosives dropped on them. I'm sure all they need is a good dose of your idealism to see them through this tight spot they're in.

which makes their decision to abstain even odder

Not really, when your very survival is reliant on aid and weapons from a wavering US. And an abstention is not a vote against, as I've pointed out many times already.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

They [rightly in my view] asked for, expected and accepted worldwide support for their resistance to an invasion by Russia.

They sought support for their stance in the UN criticising the invasion and used Russia's flagrant targetting of civilians and civilan infrastructure as a means of garnering sympathy and support for their cause.

Their gutless abstention the other night completely undermines that cause in my view. Using the targetting of civilians as means of raising support for your own cause but not showing an iota of empathy for an  even greater war crime is despicable.

I am fairly certain that a large percentage of people will share that view and that there will be a massive decrease in support for the Ukrainian cause as result of this. And rightly so.

You say all this with the luxury of not having Russian missiles raining down on your head and having to rely on certain allies for your survival. But sure, according to you, more Ukrainian children should now die because of the political situation Ukraine finds itself in. You're an idealistic fool.

Yeah I am sort of foolish like that tbf. Chagrined now that you've pointed it out.

Silly old me, I Find myself liking people more when they vote against dropping high explosives on babies than when they don't.

Wish I was a bit more sensible and pragmatic like yourself, maybe when I grow up who knows.

The Ukrainians know all about having high explosives dropped on them. I'm sure all they need is a good dose of your idealism to see them through this tight spot they're in.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

if there was any pressure on Ukraine would it not have been to vote against the ceasefire like the US did?

Who knows but an abstention would be the natural choice for any country which finds itself in an awkward situation with regard to allies voting one way at the UN and perhaps not wanting to anger them.

If your allies are supporting Israel it's time to get new allies...

Puerile nonsense.

Not sure how Ukraine can expect worldwide support and not even do something as simple as support for a ceasefire in Gaza.

An abstention is the wisest choice for a country in Ukraine's position.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

if there was any pressure on Ukraine would it not have been to vote against the ceasefire like the US did?

Who knows but an abstention would be the natural choice for any country which finds itself in an awkward situation with regard to allies voting one way at the UN and perhaps not wanting to anger them.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

They [rightly in my view] asked for, expected and accepted worldwide support for their resistance to an invasion by Russia.

They sought support for their stance in the UN criticising the invasion and used Russia's flagrant targetting of civilians and civilan infrastructure as a means of garnering sympathy and support for their cause.

Their gutless abstention the other night completely undermines that cause in my view. Using the targetting of civilians as means of raising support for your own cause but not showing an iota of empathy for an  even greater war crime is despicable.

I am fairly certain that a large percentage of people will share that view and that there will be a massive decrease in support for the Ukrainian cause as result of this. And rightly so.

You say all this with the luxury of not having Russian missiles raining down on your head and having to rely on certain allies for your survival. But sure, according to you, more Ukrainian children should now die because of the political situation Ukraine finds itself in. You're an idealistic fool.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Ireland was a neutral non-participant in WW2, don't what you have been reading. 

153 countries voted for a ceasefire, the rest didn't vote for a ceasefire, in effect their vote was for a continuation of the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians.

I was merely using an analogy to point out how ludicrous it is to compare a vote against something with an abstention. I'm not surprised it went over your head.

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies.