Messages

You are using the games to promote a 32 county 'national identity' which is a political concept. There is no such a thing as a 32 county 'national identity(and never has been but that's a different issue) and to promote one means taking a political stance, which is barred in state schools.

But by attending a rugby match or playing for "Ireland" you are promoting a "national identity". You are playing in a 6-"nations" tournament, representing your "nation".

I would agree that the concept of "nation" could be interpreted to mean a 32-County republic but it isn't necessarily so.

Also do you not concur that it is through the "promotion and preservation of games" which is at odds with your initial claim about signing up to terrorist rallies etc....?

/Jim.

I would hope not many but the coach/school teacher would presumably have to be, in order to become a member.

So the participants are members of the GAA so can enter competitions.  Could the school teacher just not become a full member of the GAA or could the GAA provide a coach?

/Jim.

[through the preservation and promotion ofGaelic Games and pastimes]

Basic Aim
The Association is a National organisation
which has as its basic aim the strengthening of
the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland
through the preservation and promotion of
Gaelic Games and pastimes.

SammyG,

If one limits oneself to promoting a national identity solely through preservation and promotion of the games would they not avoid "signing up" to supporting terrorists etc. etc....?

/Jim.

[Each player in the Under 21 age grade orover must be a registered full member.]

Membership
Membership of the Association shall be
granted only by a Club, and shall be governed
by the following regulations: -
(a) Full membership shall be open to all
persons of eighteen years or over who
subscribe to and undertake to further the
aims and objects of the Gaelic Athletic
Association, as stated in General Rules.
Each player in the Under 21 age grade or
over must be a registered full member.
Only registered full members shall be
entitled to vote at club meetings,
including the Annual Meeting.
(b) Youth membership shall be open to
persons under eighteen years.
(c) Honorary membership shall be confined
to persons who have rendered
exceptional service to the Club or to the
games and/or activities of the Association.

SammyG,

How many schoolboy players will be over 21?   

/Jim.

to become a member of the GAA you have to sign-up to support a 32 county republic

Not true.   The aim is to promote a national identity in a 32-County island through the medium of the games.

fly the tricolour and play AnBf

The flags and Amhrán na bhFiann applies to big matches, hardly to a bit of coaching in the school gym.  Anyhow all sports fly flags and play anthems.  Is GSTQ and the UJ not political (or just to right politics?).

/Jim.

Sorry for being a bit thick but are you saying you can join the GAA and participate without becoming a member or are you saying you can become a member and just pretend that all the political stuff isn't there?

SammyG,

Coach (GAA member possibly) comes to school, coaches kids on Gaelic football or hurling skills.  GAA give the school some equipment.  They play the games.  No-one needs to join the GAA or pretend anything.   They just play the games at school.

Now, maybe a few like the games and decide to join the GAA to play more regularly.  If someone then says the have an objection to the rules, it will carry a lot more credence than someone who googled about the GAA and doesn't like the rules for some reason.  

Also the only "signing" someone does to become a member is for insurance purposes and this only applies to adult players.  

Do you think that when Darren Graham started kicking around or playing hurling in Fermanagh that someone asked him to sign a document stating that he was happy with Dungiven naming their club "Kevin Lynch's" or that he agreed that Antrim GAA could hire out their field to someone having a Hunger Strike commemoration?.  

/Jim.

Which one of the things I listed were either nonsense or lies?

That anyone has to sign up to anything be that school staff or pupils.  

As for your other concerns:  No doubt many clubs have a republican "hue" about them, however there are much more clubs that don't.  Yes, the GAA could be more proactive to force clubs to appear more neutral.   However it's a big jump on your part to suggest that by playing these sports you "sign up" to the views of every single member of the GAA.  (Actually it is a pile of steaming dung...)   This is the view of all and sundry including the governments.   Hence the fact that no grants body has bought into the OWC theory of withholding funds from the GAA.  Something that was promised over two years ago on said site.

Having more people playing GAA and involved wil change the "hue" of the organisation organically and much more effectively than bringing in a whole heap of complicated rules about who/what clubs can be named after.  Existing rules should be enforced better.   However, the Darren Graham incident has shown that making the place more acceptable to the likes of him (who actually wants to play our games) will be a lot more effective than arguing with the internet warriors.

So in answer to the question, would an introduction in schools make the GAA a better place for Unionists?  Yes of course it would.

/Jim.

http://www.onesmallstepcampaign.org/

EG,

What's your involvement with the above campaign, if it's okay to ask?

/Jim.

Perfectly OK to ask. As it happens, although I have great admiration for Trevor Ringland, one of the leading lights behind OSS, I have no formal involvement at all. Somebody directed me to the site, and I was persuaded that rather than spend time bolstering ones own prejudices by forever moving in the same circles, only ever hearing the same opinions etc, it is more useful to widen them out in order better to appreciate what others think about things.

Of course, "appreciation" is not the same as "conversion"(!), but whatever impression certain individuals may have of me and my opinions now, I can assure you that these are actually somewhat more moderate and enlightened* than they were before I decided to make my "journey through the dark side"!  



* - Honest!

Very good!.   Trevor was on TodayFM last week and he mentioned that the GAA were involved in this program.  I had not known this and was interested in what is about.   The website explained all.

/Jim.

However, if you must know, my motivation is not one of "hatred", rather it is primarily curiousity - or a search for enlightenment, if you prefer.  As I replied earlier when POG asked why I am a regular on this Board, the following might explain:
http://www.onesmallstepcampaign.org/

EG,

What's your involvement with the above campaign, if it's okay to ask?

/Jim.

Funnily enough, I was talking to someone the other day who had been trying to secure sponsorship for a local soccer venture in NI. They were talking to a prominent Catholic businessman in the area, to see whether he might help. It seems he was not at all averse, but in the end declined, since he is already a sponsor of GAA in the same area, and he made it clear that the shit he'd get from certain quarters in the GAA (i.e. for supporting a "garrison" sport) made it more trouble than it was worth.

Good man,  Aerlik tried to pan a story off yesterday full of easily testable facts and got caught out.  You are cute enough to go with I was talking to someone who was chatting to someone who was let know by someone else.  All very convenient.

Must try harder: D minus.

/Jim.

Jim,
This is a thread about the GAA, in the context of the Graham affair. The Juice asked me my opinion on the GAA playing the SS and flying the Tricolour at its games and I replied strictly on those lines.

The arrangements for soccer have no place in this discussion, indeed, they serve only to sidetrack this thread down the usual "Yah, Boo, Sucks, Themmuns started it" line. Consequently, I have no desire to see what I think has been an interesting thread degenerate thus.

As I've said before, the GAA must do what the GAA thinks best, irrespective of what other organisations do. So why not leave the "Whataboutery" to the likes of Fearon?

Fine EG,

Play it that way.  However using another example to set the context is far from whataboutery.  The substantive point of my view is that the anthems and flags used by the GAA are an issue yes, an insurmountable one, no.  Someone might feel uncomfortable for about 2 minutes while Amhrán na bhFiann is played but the rest of the time they will be fine.

I could give comparative examples but apparently that would be Fearon'esque whataboutery so I'll let the comment stand as it is.

/Jim.

Jim,
I deliberately chose my analogies for GAA from Cricket and Rugby, since these are both all-Ireland sports, which face the problem of reconciling two political entities and traditions within the one island. As such, both sports have been pretty successful (though Rugby is storing up potential problems for the forthcoming international vs Italy at Ravenhill, imo).

Soccer is different, since it is partitioned. Therefore, I have absolutely no problem whatever with the FAI playing the Soldiers Song and flying the Tricolour at their matches - indeed, it is the proper thing to do.

As regards NI, it is a FIFA requirement that each team flies its National flag at international matches. With the NI flag, I can see that it causes difficulties for Nationalists, but what other flag is there? The official flag of NI is actually the Union Flag, but I certainly don't require to see that replacing the present one!
Of course, if the NI government at Stormont were to agree a new flag (and pigs will fly before that happens! ), then I would happily accept that. In the meantime, the only flag I personally bring to Windsor is a Green and White one, in common with the majority of the fans.

As for the Anthem, I have long wanted to see GSTQ replaced by a peculiarly Norn Iron tune, whether specially commissioned, or an existing tune adopted (Danny Boy? - Not sure, or bothered, really).  As such, I am one of a growing number who thinks this way.
In the meantime, I shall continue to do what I do e.g. at Lansdowne Rugby matches when the SS is played: either stand respectfully till it's over (90 seconds?), or use that time to nip to the jacks for a late emptying of the bladder.

(Anyhow, this is a GAA thread; if you want to discuss the situation facing soccer, it would be better either to open a separate thread, or borrow any one of Fatboy Fearon's myriad interventions!)

EG,

I am aware that soccer in Ireland is partitioned.  However, my understanding from OWC contributors like yourself is that is a cross-community sport subscribed to by all and sundry.  Hence, I'd expect it to adhere to same standards as any All-Ireland sport.  I am also well aware that this is a GAA thread but mindfulof where you are coming from I use soccer as a frame of reference.

I have no doubt that you (and others) attach less importance to symbols used by your sport but still you see no real prospect of change.  However, you do not see it as insurmountable barrier to those of another tradition.  The put up, show respect, it will over in a minute view of things.  That is what I am advocating in the GAA context.  It may change in time but for now c'est la vie.

I attach little credence to the "FIFA say" excuses proffered by those in the OWC camp.  The world of soccer is full of anchronisms when it comes to national stuff.  Welsh teams in English Leagues, anthems used/not used.  If the will was there to change the Northern Ireland soccer flag and anthem in the interests of community relations, FIFA would not stand in the way.  You and I both know that.

Hence, while I see the anthem and tricolour as an issue, it is far from an insurmountable barrier.  

/Jim.

Oh yeah, I'd kinda forgotten those! I'd have to say, if Unionists are going to be attracted to GAA in any significant numbers, then it will only be when GAA drops its traditionally Nationalist ethos. As such, the Tricolour and Anthem are integral parts of that ethos.

Frankly, I can't see any way the Unionist identity could also be reflected alongside the Nationalist one at GAA games, nor should it, even were it possible (imo), since I don't like "branding" people, nor mixing politics and sport.

The best solution I've seen is to follow the example of Cricket, which doesn't have any anthems before games and which in the Irish context merely flies the flag of the Irish Cricket Union.

Alternatively, at GAA games it might be workable to fly the respective Provincial Flags of the teams playing, plus perhaps a specially commissioned GAA Flag, if Central Council insisted.

Similarly for anthems, perhaps each province might have its own, non-political song ("Danny Boy" for Ulster?), and the GAA could commission its own equivalent to rugby's "Ireland's Call"?

On reflection, I've no doubt that the prospect of dropping the Soldiers Song and Tricolour will shock, even appall, many otherwise apolitical GAA fans, since they are a cherished part of GAA tradition. But the sky didn't fall in when GSTQ was played for the England Rugby Team at Croke Park a few months back, so I doubt it would scupper GAA entirely to have to select a new song or flag.

Anyhow, at the risk of repeating myself for the umpteenth time, such issues merely highlight the choice which is facing the GAA. That is, it may embrace Nationalism, or embrace Unionists, but not both at the same time.

Indeed and I have no doubt that soon over in Windsor Park a neutral anthem will be played with a neutral flag fluttering over it.   I have a lot of doubts that the swarms of nationalists won over by FFA feel comfortable with these trappings.   Of course though their love of their chosen sport means that they put up with and get on with it.  Likewise, so can those of the unionist tradition involved in GAA.

Of course if overtime the number of unionists (or nationalists or whatever) within the GAA decide they don't want the anthem or tricolour at matches then fine it will change.  

However for now I don't see it changing. (just like I don't see the IFA making changes of a similar ilk)

/Jim.

So instead of not reading them - you constantly add to them ass licking Tony - knob!

Only people who have been to Windsor (not NI versus Morocco either) may vote.

/Jim.

Look,

A bit of acid corrosion in your engines is a small price you pay for Slab and the boys delivering an Ireland of Equals.

Get on with.

/Jim.