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long covid effects are not unknown. see my previous post.

They are unknown.

Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.

They are both unknown.

I don't know how many times you have to be told that using them as an argument is self-defeating. I can repeat it over and over again but I can't do anymore if you're still struggling to accept something so basic and self-explanatory.

Will be great watching McIlroy fail again.

[Covid could age you 10 years in terms of damage to parts of your body.]

Covid could age you 10 years in terms of damage to parts of your body.

There is also the example of the 24 year old twins in India who died, I'm sure that that their familiy would like to hear Angelo's theories about young people being unaffected.

This is the disingenuous and purely speculative nonsense that has become par the course for the zealots on here.

Forget the truth, forge the facts, forget things we actually and just engage in hysterical and unproven speculation to pedal your agenda.

But there is already evidence of Long Covid. Some pretty grim reading on the impacts of it on people. It's not theoretical. And it seems to be hitting the younger age groups as well.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-05-20/long-covid-one-in-seven-younger-people-suffer-symptoms-up-to-six-months-after-catching-coronavirus

That's not long term.

If you have had a proper flu in the past you will know that it takes months to get back to 100%.

Long Covid is a complete and utter joke and the oxegen a hypochondriac or a lazy person needs.

How many months does it take to get back to 100% if you've suffered from non-reversible lung damage?

I was unaware Covid was the only thing that causes non-reversible lung damage.

Was also unaware how we suddenly have so many respiratory experts on the forum?

Or maybe we just have chaps like you speaking authoritatively on things they neither know about or understand?

But there is already evidence of Long Covid. Some pretty grim reading on the impacts of it on people. It's not theoretical. And it seems to be hitting the younger age groups as well.

https://www.itv.com/news/2021-05-20/long-covid-one-in-seven-younger-people-suffer-symptoms-up-to-six-months-after-catching-coronavirus

That's not long term.

If you have had a proper flu in the past you will know that it takes months to get back to 100%.

Long Covid is a complete and utter joke and the oxegen a hypochondriac or a lazy person needs.

[I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.]

It's obvious that the people who are refusing the vaccine don't have a lot of intelligence.

That kind of sh*te sickens me hole. I bet ya you're fierce intelligent - according to yourself . Personally I will take it, for the simple reason I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.
I would not for one second look down at those who have educated themselves enough to make a clear decision (cost/benefit analysis) not to the the vaccine. I know plently of educated people who for their own good reason will not take the vaccine. The my body my choice pro abortion birgrade, suddenely have turned the opposite, this hyprosicy pisses me off too. My kids all under 15 won't be getting it.
Trailer a bit like Sid, you have little crediability here, have a read of your posts from earlier in this thread ffs. You disappeared for 6 months & thought you could re-invent yourself, maybe you read a chit load of books on everything & now you're an over night expert Or maybe somebody else has taken over your account.

That's the key for me. I am sceptical about the stats that are thrown about like a 20 year old has a x% chance of dying from Covid but a y% chance of developing a blood clot from the vaccine etc so why should they get the vaccine?. Most of the stats I have seen quoted from people against the vaccine only take into account mortality and not potential longterm issues which I suspect would significantly change the outcome if you were able to include them. If you take society as a whole then it clearly is beneficial to have as many people vaccinated as possible as it reduces transmission and the chances that a  new, deadlier variant comes along that impacts everyone.

All hypothetical but is it reasonable that a small proportion of people (say the 20 year olds) are significantly increasing the chances that a new, more deadly strain develops because they are ensuring the virus lives on by their increased transmission rates?

What about the long term effects of the vaccine?

Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.

Just out of curiosity what are you basing that statement on? I dont agree with your arguments on vaccine and as I have said previously I believe that it is a selfish approach to remain unvaccinated because of a person's individual demographic at a point in time there "might" be a (very) marginally lower chance of health problems from Covid than from the vaccine based on current data. (Although as I say I am sceptical about this). Given that these risks are so small anyway I think it is absolutely the wrong approach  but people have a right to be selfish so I am not getting into that.

However, to the best of my knowledge there is no data about the longterm effect of the vaccine so what is that sweeping statement based on?

What do we know about long term effects of the vaccine? Nothing.

What do we know about long term effects of Covid. Not a lot.

But it suits some people's narratives go cite one as a reason and dismiss the other. And it's usually the pro-vaxx zealots who demand people get it and want everyone who doesn't shamed or coerced.

It's a personal choice. When you see a few eejits like Trailer calling people uneducated because they don't see an upside into getting it and wanting sanctions put on them for exercising their own decisions then IMO it's people like him who are not only uneducated but dangerous. 90% of people who are getting the vaccine or doing so because they are being told to or being coerced into it.

I look at it from the point of view, which is backed up by statistical data, Covid is not a threat to my demograph. There's more chance of me sitting into my car today, driving 20 miles and dying or getting seriously injured than there is of getting Covid and dying of getting seriously injured.

I wonder do these same zealots who demand people get the vaccine, those who vilify, shame and insult those who choose not to get the flu jab every year or are they just moronic hypocrites. It's people like these who are a fickle mob and no doubt would have been front and centre when Hitler was whipping up Nazi Germany.

The first two parts I have highlighted contradict your original sweeping statement as there is evidence of  Long term Covid health problems while you are just making an assumption that there will be long term problems with the vaccine in the future. You may be proved right (personally I doubt it) but my point is you cannot make that statement as it sits now. You claim later in your paragraph you are making a call on whether to have the vaccine based on statistical data which may be fair enough (depending what statistics you choose to use) but blatantly apply your own subjective opinion rather than data when you claimed

Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.

Lastly, as I pointed out above, your demographic may be very marginally at less risk from Covid  compared to the the vaccine. Again, I would question what statistics you use but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. However, in my view (and I am sure I could find the statistics to back this up if I choose to) society as a whole  is better off the more people are vaccinated in terms of lower transmission, lower hospitalisation rates, greater freedoms and crucially less chance for a variant to develop that either changes the numbers for your demographic in terms of mortality etc or more worryingly is resistant to the vaccine as a whole. Rather confusingly, while you seem concerned for the potential longterm future issues with the vaccine to the extent you make a subjective statement on it but you do not seem to share the same concern for potential variants developing (for which there is statistical evidence for) and which have the potential to set us back months in combatting Covid and have the  potential for unnecessary deaths.

My opinion is that people like you who dont get the vaccine based on a minute delta between the chances of dying from Covid or reacting badly to the vaccine are absolutely being selfish and  its two fingers up to the rest of society. You use the analogy of driving in the car being riskier than developing Covid but obviously you have no issue in driving because it suits you. I would guess the same applies to getting the vaccine in the sense it is less risky than driving your 20 miles but as far as this is concerned you have deemed vaccination too risky even though it will benefit others. Absolutely your choice but I assume you can see that is not exactly a selfless act.

Clearly they do not contradict each other.

Anyone who cites one and dismisses the other is being a hypocrite.

Both are unknown, the difference is you choose to get the vaccine, you may never get Covid.

The statistics I cite are there on the Covid dashboard. 7 deaths in around 65k cases in the u40s.

I said they contradicted your statement that Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.[/b], not that they contradicted each other. I am not sure if you are referring to me as citing them but for clarity I certainly did not cite one or the other apart from to say there is evidence of longterm effects of Covid which I think is well accepted. Obviously if you have anything to challenge that statement with please post it.

My point was that you made a sweeping statement about something and then one post later said that there was zero evidence to underpin said statement. That does not necessarily make it wrong as its impossible to prove at this point but I am sure if someone said All U25s who do not get vaccinated will develop a new strain of Covid within 1 year and 25% will die you would (quite reasonably ) be one of the first people calling them out on this. Much like your statement above, you could not disprove it but there is zero evidence to back it up and its misleading.

I'm not getting into an argument about the rights and wrongs of whether people should get the vaccine or not. I think my position is pretty clear on this. While I respect people's right to not get it, I think it is a selfish act and I do think that those people should accept that this decision may have consequences in terms of where they can travel to, socialise etc because there is evidence that these people present a greater risk to society as a whole than people who have been vaccinated.

You claim on multiple threads how people dont like your "debating" style and how you look to the statistics etc. If that is the case stick to the stats and stop making unsubstantiated statements that are at best unproven and a worst wholly inaccurate. I have absolutely no issue in you saying that you think history will prove that the longterm effects of the vaccine will cancel out the long term effect of covid and we can debate the merits of your opinion and why you think that. Just dont present is as a fact to challenge a point when its clearly not and then hold yourself up as  some great debater.

And for the third time and hopefully it might get through this time.

An argument citing long term effects of Covid as a reason to get a vaccine is cancelled out by an argument of long term effects of the vaccine.

Plain English there, both are unknown at the minute, they cannot be quantified but if someone is citing the unknown long term effects of Covid as a reason to get a vaccine then it's a self-defeating argument as I can just as easily point to the unknown long term effects of the vaccine. And that's work both ways and if somebody wants to use one and dismiss the other then it's a clear sign of a completely biased agenda.

The only differentiation is that I may choose not to get the vaccine and never get Covid and never be open to potential long term impacts whereas if I do choose to get the vaccine I am opening up myself to potential long term impacts.

[I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.]

It's obvious that the people who are refusing the vaccine don't have a lot of intelligence.

That kind of sh*te sickens me hole. I bet ya you're fierce intelligent - according to yourself . Personally I will take it, for the simple reason I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.
I would not for one second look down at those who have educated themselves enough to make a clear decision (cost/benefit analysis) not to the the vaccine. I know plently of educated people who for their own good reason will not take the vaccine. The my body my choice pro abortion birgrade, suddenely have turned the opposite, this hyprosicy pisses me off too. My kids all under 15 won't be getting it.
Trailer a bit like Sid, you have little crediability here, have a read of your posts from earlier in this thread ffs. You disappeared for 6 months & thought you could re-invent yourself, maybe you read a chit load of books on everything & now you're an over night expert Or maybe somebody else has taken over your account.

That's the key for me. I am sceptical about the stats that are thrown about like a 20 year old has a x% chance of dying from Covid but a y% chance of developing a blood clot from the vaccine etc so why should they get the vaccine?. Most of the stats I have seen quoted from people against the vaccine only take into account mortality and not potential longterm issues which I suspect would significantly change the outcome if you were able to include them. If you take society as a whole then it clearly is beneficial to have as many people vaccinated as possible as it reduces transmission and the chances that a  new, deadlier variant comes along that impacts everyone.

All hypothetical but is it reasonable that a small proportion of people (say the 20 year olds) are significantly increasing the chances that a new, more deadly strain develops because they are ensuring the virus lives on by their increased transmission rates?

What about the long term effects of the vaccine?

Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.

Just out of curiosity what are you basing that statement on? I dont agree with your arguments on vaccine and as I have said previously I believe that it is a selfish approach to remain unvaccinated because of a person's individual demographic at a point in time there "might" be a (very) marginally lower chance of health problems from Covid than from the vaccine based on current data. (Although as I say I am sceptical about this). Given that these risks are so small anyway I think it is absolutely the wrong approach  but people have a right to be selfish so I am not getting into that.

However, to the best of my knowledge there is no data about the longterm effect of the vaccine so what is that sweeping statement based on?

What do we know about long term effects of the vaccine? Nothing.

What do we know about long term effects of Covid. Not a lot.

But it suits some people's narratives go cite one as a reason and dismiss the other. And it's usually the pro-vaxx zealots who demand people get it and want everyone who doesn't shamed or coerced.

It's a personal choice. When you see a few eejits like Trailer calling people uneducated because they don't see an upside into getting it and wanting sanctions put on them for exercising their own decisions then IMO it's people like him who are not only uneducated but dangerous. 90% of people who are getting the vaccine or doing so because they are being told to or being coerced into it.

I look at it from the point of view, which is backed up by statistical data, Covid is not a threat to my demograph. There's more chance of me sitting into my car today, driving 20 miles and dying or getting seriously injured than there is of getting Covid and dying of getting seriously injured.

I wonder do these same zealots who demand people get the vaccine, those who vilify, shame and insult those who choose not to get the flu jab every year or are they just moronic hypocrites. It's people like these who are a fickle mob and no doubt would have been front and centre when Hitler was whipping up Nazi Germany.

The first two parts I have highlighted contradict your original sweeping statement as there is evidence of  Long term Covid health problems while you are just making an assumption that there will be long term problems with the vaccine in the future. You may be proved right (personally I doubt it) but my point is you cannot make that statement as it sits now. You claim later in your paragraph you are making a call on whether to have the vaccine based on statistical data which may be fair enough (depending what statistics you choose to use) but blatantly apply your own subjective opinion rather than data when you claimed

Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.

Lastly, as I pointed out above, your demographic may be very marginally at less risk from Covid  compared to the the vaccine. Again, I would question what statistics you use but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. However, in my view (and I am sure I could find the statistics to back this up if I choose to) society as a whole  is better off the more people are vaccinated in terms of lower transmission, lower hospitalisation rates, greater freedoms and crucially less chance for a variant to develop that either changes the numbers for your demographic in terms of mortality etc or more worryingly is resistant to the vaccine as a whole. Rather confusingly, while you seem concerned for the potential longterm future issues with the vaccine to the extent you make a subjective statement on it but you do not seem to share the same concern for potential variants developing (for which there is statistical evidence for) and which have the potential to set us back months in combatting Covid and have the  potential for unnecessary deaths.

My opinion is that people like you who dont get the vaccine based on a minute delta between the chances of dying from Covid or reacting badly to the vaccine are absolutely being selfish and  its two fingers up to the rest of society. You use the analogy of driving in the car being riskier than developing Covid but obviously you have no issue in driving because it suits you. I would guess the same applies to getting the vaccine in the sense it is less risky than driving your 20 miles but as far as this is concerned you have deemed vaccination too risky even though it will benefit others. Absolutely your choice but I assume you can see that is not exactly a selfless act.
[/quote]

Clearly they do not contradict each other.

Anyone who cites one and dismisses the other is being a hypocrite.

Both are unknown, the difference is you choose to get the vaccine, you may never get Covid.

The statistics I cite are there on the Covid dashboard. 7 deaths in around 65k cases in the u40s.

[I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.]

It's obvious that the people who are refusing the vaccine don't have a lot of intelligence.

That kind of sh*te sickens me hole. I bet ya you're fierce intelligent - according to yourself . Personally I will take it, for the simple reason I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.
I would not for one second look down at those who have educated themselves enough to make a clear decision (cost/benefit analysis) not to the the vaccine. I know plently of educated people who for their own good reason will not take the vaccine. The my body my choice pro abortion birgrade, suddenely have turned the opposite, this hyprosicy pisses me off too. My kids all under 15 won't be getting it.
Trailer a bit like Sid, you have little crediability here, have a read of your posts from earlier in this thread ffs. You disappeared for 6 months & thought you could re-invent yourself, maybe you read a chit load of books on everything & now you're an over night expert Or maybe somebody else has taken over your account.

That's the key for me. I am sceptical about the stats that are thrown about like a 20 year old has a x% chance of dying from Covid but a y% chance of developing a blood clot from the vaccine etc so why should they get the vaccine?. Most of the stats I have seen quoted from people against the vaccine only take into account mortality and not potential longterm issues which I suspect would significantly change the outcome if you were able to include them. If you take society as a whole then it clearly is beneficial to have as many people vaccinated as possible as it reduces transmission and the chances that a  new, deadlier variant comes along that impacts everyone.

All hypothetical but is it reasonable that a small proportion of people (say the 20 year olds) are significantly increasing the chances that a new, more deadly strain develops because they are ensuring the virus lives on by their increased transmission rates?

What about the long term effects of the vaccine?

Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.

Just out of curiosity what are you basing that statement on? I dont agree with your arguments on vaccine and as I have said previously I believe that it is a selfish approach to remain unvaccinated because of a person's individual demographic at a point in time there "might" be a (very) marginally lower chance of health problems from Covid than from the vaccine based on current data. (Although as I say I am sceptical about this). Given that these risks are so small anyway I think it is absolutely the wrong approach  but people have a right to be selfish so I am not getting into that.

However, to the best of my knowledge there is no data about the longterm effect of the vaccine so what is that sweeping statement based on?

What do we know about long term effects of the vaccine? Nothing.

What do we know about long term effects of Covid. Not a lot.

But it suits some people's narratives go cite one as a reason and dismiss the other. And it's usually the pro-vaxx zealots who demand people get it and want everyone who doesn't shamed or coerced.

It's a personal choice. When you see a few eejits like Trailer calling people uneducated because they don't see an upside into getting it and wanting sanctions put on them for exercising their own decisions then IMO it's people like him who are not only uneducated but dangerous. 90% of people who are getting the vaccine or doing so because they are being told to or being coerced into it.

I look at it from the point of view, which is backed up by statistical data, Covid is not a threat to my demograph. There's more chance of me sitting into my car today, driving 20 miles and dying or getting seriously injured than there is of getting Covid and dying of getting seriously injured.

I wonder do these same zealots who demand people get the vaccine, those who vilify, shame and insult those who choose not to get the flu jab every year or are they just moronic hypocrites. It's people like these who are a fickle mob and no doubt would have been front and centre when Hitler was whipping up Nazi Germany.

I would say it won't be long until we see the non-binary Olympics, and such events.

I've always wondered what if I wanted to be identified as a donkey? Would I be pandered to, or carted off to the nut house? Could I demand that all public places have separate toilets for us donkeys?

And more importantly, would I qualify for DLA?

Not sure but you would probably become eligible to play for Derry.

[I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.]

It's obvious that the people who are refusing the vaccine don't have a lot of intelligence.

That kind of sh*te sickens me hole. I bet ya you're fierce intelligent - according to yourself . Personally I will take it, for the simple reason I see it as the only viable solution out of the crisis, stop variants of potentially far worse strains developing.
I would not for one second look down at those who have educated themselves enough to make a clear decision (cost/benefit analysis) not to the the vaccine. I know plently of educated people who for their own good reason will not take the vaccine. The my body my choice pro abortion birgrade, suddenely have turned the opposite, this hyprosicy pisses me off too. My kids all under 15 won't be getting it.
Trailer a bit like Sid, you have little crediability here, have a read of your posts from earlier in this thread ffs. You disappeared for 6 months & thought you could re-invent yourself, maybe you read a chit load of books on everything & now you're an over night expert Or maybe somebody else has taken over your account.

That's the key for me. I am sceptical about the stats that are thrown about like a 20 year old has a x% chance of dying from Covid but a y% chance of developing a blood clot from the vaccine etc so why should they get the vaccine?. Most of the stats I have seen quoted from people against the vaccine only take into account mortality and not potential longterm issues which I suspect would significantly change the outcome if you were able to include them. If you take society as a whole then it clearly is beneficial to have as many people vaccinated as possible as it reduces transmission and the chances that a  new, deadlier variant comes along that impacts everyone.

All hypothetical but is it reasonable that a small proportion of people (say the 20 year olds) are significantly increasing the chances that a new, more deadly strain develops because they are ensuring the virus lives on by their increased transmission rates?

What about the long term effects of the vaccine?

Long term effects of Covid and long term effects of vaccines cancel each other out.

It's obvious that people who don't get the vaccine are confident enough to exercise their own judgement and not be coerced by what the mob demand they do.

Stoops generally wouldn't know what having a bit of backbone entails.

What about the younger ones that have died or as in Bolton haven't had the vaccine and are in hospital because of the virus ?

What younger ones have died?

Let's look at the O6

61,500~ cases of under 40s getting Covid.
7 deaths.
A 0.000114% of dying from Covid if you are under 40 by those figures.

And that's before you even analyse the fact that over 90% of people who have died with Covid have had underlying health conditions.
The fact that a death is recorded as a Covid death if you tested positive within 14 days of dying, irrespective of whether or not Covid was the main factor in your death.
The fact that hospice deaths have been included in the Covid death figures.

So I would say Covid is as much a risk to the under 40s as getting behind the wheel of a car to make a 20 mile trip is.

What's the upside to an u40 getting a Covid vaccine?

It's obvious that people who don't get the vaccine are confident enough to exercise their own judgement and not be coerced by what the mob demand they do.

Stoops generally wouldn't know what having a bit of backbone entails.

Vaccines have their uses for the vulnerable categories (the elderly and medically compromised), apart from that their effect is negligible at the very best and downright dangerous at the worst.

How many smallpox deaths this year? Are there many with polio in Tyrone. How many deaths from measles?

That's hysterical.

You're really comparing the fatality of Covid to Smallpox?

If you are citing polio vaccines as a great win you might want to tell that to the hundreds of people left paralysed and other dead after getting them.

I think it's clear that you are trying to twist the narrative here.

The data overwhelmingly states that if you are fit, healthy and young Covid is of the most minimal threat to you, so I fail to see the upside of getting the vaccine when we have seen the amount of cases which have resulted in serious illness and deaths associated with the vaccine.

Russia currently occupies parts of three sovereign countries.

Russia is in no way a victim of any propaganda campaign, it is a dangerous, rotten, colonialist state, just like Israel is.

Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq off the top of my head.

If you look at any of these proxy wars between Russia and America, you will generally find Russia are on the right side of it.

But it's the Russians who are the bad guys according to the West.

Right.

Both bad in my view, most superpowers are, stick China on that list too.

Russia are far less of an evil than the USA who are the root cause of all that's wrong in the Middle East and Central America.

Central America I give you but the original cause of a lot of the issues in the Middle East are our lovely neighbours the next Island over.

The original possibly but the US have taken that mantle up over the past 40/50 years and have been a huge cause directly or indirectly in the likes of Al Qaeda and ISIS, by backing them with arms or providing training to their operatives in order to overthrow regimes that were not under their thumb over in the Middle East.