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However, despite Tram's arguments that he can't prove if or how much money was given to the Tyrone players the fact is that players have been given money (approved by their county boards) to spend as they please.

Please prove that this is a fact via a verifiable source.

PM'd you with specific details and teams I know of. Please don't try and turn a blind eye to it. It is a fact that some teams give players cash as spending money on these teams holidays, I am not making it up to suit my agenda!

On the point that the GAA give players spending money on the International rules trips, they also do it on the foreign Railway Cup trips. To me, that is still a payment of cash to players and, strictly speaking is breaking the rules (I am open to correction on this though). Maybe it is a case of the rule being more than a guideline and should not be enforced literally. OR the GAA deems it not to be that big of a deal. That could be more worrying for some people here

Yes there was,but that would be a totally seperate matter. Fundraisers for player welfare would be a long established and welcome facet of GAA life.

I wasn't sure if it was true but just wondering whether the offering of money in this case was against the GAA ethos and if it had any relavance to this thread. It's late and I'm rambling, probably clutching at straws!

In all fairness that was about a player's loss of income etc due to injury. It is almost the opposite to what this thread about.

Yeah, you're right, I have no idea what I was trying to get at there! I'll use my sleepwalk card on that one!  

However, despite Tram's arguments that he can't prove if or how much money was given to the Tyrone players the fact is that players have been given money (approved by their county boards) to spend as they please. I just find it a case of total double-standards when the same county boards are so vociferous in their arguments against the players getting any money in the form of 'expenses'. I think we all know that these payments aren't expenses are done so as they don't contravene the amateur ethos, something which the players 'holiday money' is in risk of.

Yes there was,but that would be a totally seperate matter. Fundraisers for player welfare would be a long established and welcome facet of GAA life.

I wasn't sure if it was true but just wondering whether the offering of money in this case was against the GAA ethos and if it had any relavance to this thread. It's late and I'm rambling, probably clutching at straws!

On other note, and I may be completely wrong on this, but was there not a fundraising night of some sort in aid of Brian McGuigan when he got injured? I have only heard about this and I am completely wrong but can someone clarify this/

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I've no doubt Tyrone playersgot money after the 2003 AI. As i said earlier, I have no problem with that, the players deserve it. Again, this isn't only done by the TCB, I know many other county players have gotten cash in hand on holidays, whether that is money from the county board, sponsors, Club Tyrone-type supporters clubs I don't know. There is no doubt that the county board have either approved it or have turned a blind eye. Right or wrong, these players are getting money given to them simply because they are county players and/or they have been successful. Again, I think the players deserve it so I have absoluely no problems with it. What I do have a problem with is the fact that some county boards (our own voted against the grants too), Of One Belief etc. have been so vociferous in their arguments against the grants when  similar 'payments' or 'expenses' given to players simply because of their success, their status as county players, payments to club managers etc. have been made right under noses.

When the Tyrone CB first struck their sponsorship deal with Rockwell, it included a clause where Rockwell would pay an additional fee if Tyrone were to win the All-Ireland title. I can't remember the exact fee, but it was easily six figures sterling. Maybe its perfectly possible that the county board used some of this money to "top up" the spending money for the squad of players to allow themselves to enjoy the holiday more?

Again, fair play for negotiating that deal. However, if that was the case, is it not still a payment to the players? A bit of a pedantic argument, I know but some similarly pedantic arguments have been made in defence of the anti-grants brigade.

Does it reward success? Yeah, but we all do for something that is successful for teams at all levels, wherever it involves money, the glamour of the location or anything else.

Is this not exactly what the grants/expenses are? Giving the players more money depending on how successful they are?

I would tend to agree with bigpaul on this one.

The way I would see it is that everyone agrees that players should be looked after as well as we possibly can. Now, Tyrone go away on the holiday, players get flights paid, accomodation paid and all expenses paid. Surely this is 'looking after them the best we possibly can'. Then the sum of £3000 is given to them as spending money. It has been seen that they have no expenses therefore they are free to spend the three grand as they see fit. Fair enough, I have no problem with that, the players won the All-Ireland and deserve everything they get. However, had they not won the All-Ireland would they have got this holiday and the £3000? No, so therefore by winning the AI, they get money given to them. Again, I have no problem with this, fair play to the players, they deserve it. Simply, Club Tyrone (approved by the Tyrone CB) have given the players an award of £3000 because they have won an AI.

However, you now have OF One Belief forming because of the grants/expenses (money given to the players depending on how they fare in the championship, similar to above) when Mark Conway's own club and many other Tyrone clubs pay managers ILLEGALLY. Then the county board argue against the grants when they approve the players getting the £3000. To be honest, it smacks of double standards within certain sections of Tyrone county board, club members, Of One Belief etc. etc.

I would never advocate professionalism in any form but I don't see how these grants/expenses (which have yet to be proved illegal with regard to the GAA rules, remember) equates to wages, agents, spivs, contracts, the end of the club volunteer and other doomsday declarations.

Yeah I can see it being an open provincial myself. I suppose you would need the Dubs to go out in that case though.

wexford struggle at midfield, fermanagh cleaned them out today, teams that don;t win primary posession don't win championships, very good forwards though.

Myself and most of the Fermanagh fans around me thought Wexford cleaned us out of midfield, especially in the first half. I don't agree that their midfield is a weak link

I thought the same myself Ferm. The red fella with the knee strapping must have caught about 4 or 5 in the first half alone

[the only f**k up I can recall him making was against Longford last year when trying to catch the ball over the bar.]

Pedro, I don't think Connaughton can be described as "dodgy as f**k" at all. True, he shouldn't be coming out of his goal with the ball as he is not a good "footballer" and I would certainly be encouraging him to lay if off pretty snappy when he gets his hands on it but from a kick out/shot stopping/fielding/presence point of view I can honestly say I would not sway him for any keeper in the country. Since around 2004, when he first got called into goals the only f**k up I can recall him making was against Longford last year when trying to catch the ball over the bar. Might have been pretty costly but not bad for four odd years of goalkeeping. As safe as houses in my view.

Sorry AN other, I have felt that for a long time. I'm aware yous hold in him in high regard and in fairness he did pull off an important stop yesterday. However, he also made the same mistake as above against us in league last year and any time I have seen him I just have the feeling he's close to making a c**k-up. Maybe, I'm being a bit harsh and he'll go on to get an All-Star this year (his second one?)

To be honest, I have to laugh at some of teh Dub posters talking about peaking in time for August and September and about Westmeath ending their run in Leinster etc. Do yous not know who yous have in the first round? Yous probably will beat us but you can't just completely write us off either

Travelled down to the game myself, seeing as I was in the locality visiting relatives. Thought it was quite a good game played in a good manner. A number of points I would make:

- Dublin's bench mightn't be just as strong as Pillar et al. would like you to believe.
- What happened to O'Donoghue? I never rated him and thought he was as slow as Christmas but the new role in midfield seemed to suit him. I expected Ryan to run the legs off him but it never happened. Flanagan was excellent throughout, maybe slowed the play up a little bit but was very impressive.
- Dublin are really struggling in the full back line, however they are not the only county who has trouble in this department. Westmeath don't appear to be one of them though. How Paul Casey continues to get a game on that team is beyond me. Where was he supposed to be playing in the last 10-15? He seemed to be in roaming around half forward/full forward, good going for someone with such bad kicking skills.
- Connaughton (sp) is dodgy as fcuk IMO. It was very funny to hear the Dublin supporters cheering him when he got the ball, he was almost caught out with on suicide hand-pass in the first half.
- Sherlock's injury must be a worry considering the suspensions to other forwards in the Dublin panel.
- The Dubs fans aren't that bad 

Having seen two of Dublin's games firsthand (Armagh and W'Meath) I haven't been overly impressed and I think Louth could shock them. Hopefully the appeals won't be succesfull as I think this could be a major boost to us. Although we haven't set the world alight in the league, on our day we could cause the Dubs problems, I remember saying this before though 

Westmeath could be a real force to be reckoned with in Leinster. Not only have they a good team but the victory today will give a good boost going into the championship and morale must be high.

Why was Shocko not playing? Is he injured or just not being picked???

Injured - the problems he had with Pillar are over and done with. Only for injury he would have been number 4 in our last 3 games.

Yous definitely need him anyway the way things are going. When is he due back?

I would definitely back Wexford to go up. We've nothing to play for and Eamonn has selected a second string team so this shuldn't be any bother for Wexford.

I think it was Uladh who, in the Armagh/Cork thread, remarked that Cussen wasn't playing in the semi-final. I have heard a rumour (which could be completely unfounded, mind) that Cussen was not injured, suspended or anything else but had gotten into a spot of bother with the, em, Guards?

Ok-  I've read your signature - I can't accept that there isn't a man that could train / manage you. For how many years have you had an outside manager now ?

Well, we nearly always have an inside manager but they would have little input into the training aspect. We have been getting outside trainers in for the the guts of the last decade. I'm not kidding when I say there is no-one inside the club who would be good enough. We had Paddy Keenan training the seniors when he was injured at the start of the year but now he's back training with Louth we had to get someone in. I understand your scepticism but the reality is that I've tried to think of ONE person within the club who would be good enough but I would really be scraping the barrel, unfortunately.

I'm not saying paying managers/trainers is right or wrong but in our case it is almost a necessity. As Lynchboy says, external managers need to be paid. No-one from outside the club is going to willingly offer their services for nothing. I'll agree thre are a few sharks out there who will go from pillar to post in order to get a quick buck (and we have had some experience with these cowboys ourselves) but some are very good in fairness

Read my signature 

I initially didn't want to talk about my own club but I think it's a fair argument so I felt compelled to

That said, if things are left to fester as they are, then it is only a matter of time before a club that has lost a major game objects to the result on the basis that their opponents should be suspended for paying a player or manager. Then, all hell will break loose and God knows where it would end.

Doomsday alert, Doomsday alert!!

Really, do you think something like this will happen?

For what it's worth, I think it is a necessary evil in our games. I know for a fact there is NOBODY in our club who is good enough, who would have the respect, have the time etc. to train (not manage, train) our seniors. Now, we have won championships in recent times and this would definitely not have happened without getting an 'outside' trainer(s). What do you do? Stick to the letter of the law (GAA rules) and operate like a pub team or try and become more professional and win championships? I know which I would prefer, and all of the die-hard GAA old timers in our club would agree, especially after we won our first championship in 2003.

Another example would be a nearby senior club who would have an 'old-school' reputation where they would not even entertain the idea of paying a manager. Subsequently there was trouble at their AGM as their players argued that they needed an outside man as the club was being run shambolically. Their argument was ignored and already this year there is reports of in-fighting. This club will probably not win the championship in the near future but if the players want/feel they need an outside manager what does the club do?