Messages

Snatter , do you live facing Musgrave and looking free tickets into all events?

Nope, its just the best one I can think of.
Have you/anybody else any serious ideas?

If we're to spend this money, we need to come up with a viable plan B pretty pronto before some excuse is made to claw the money back.
Leaving us in the sadly predictable situation where the OWC and rugger crowds get what they want and we get short changed.

Moving on....if Belfast really wants the economic benefits that a 40k stadium brings, it has to stump up a site.

My favourite is Musgrave Park, any other possible sites?

If Belfast doesn't want it, take it to Dungannon / Armagh / Antrim town, or whoever offers the best package.

Any thoughts?

Fold Housing plan for former Visteon factory in west Belfast

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25581367


The old Ford factory is

• a far larger site than Casement
• consequently much further away from residents
• is available for development right now
• has it's own access road
• is v close to Finaghy station

I wonder if some lateral thinking would allow the GAA to do some sort of a land swap with Fold, Casement for the Ford factory.

This would allow the GAA to

1. build a proper sized stadium with a roof on all four sides.
Planning permission would be straightforward for the GAA, as the stadium would be regarded as replacement economic activity, especially if some work units were incorporated into the build.
2. avoid an almost certain lengthy legal challenge from Casement residents, who may have a fair chance of winning.

Fold would benefit from planning,a s it's by no means certain that the planners will approve a change of use from economic activity to housing.

Any thoughts?

Bump

[However, Snatter has a point, the present location is mainly down to sectarianism.]

In another European country, or even in America, the City would vest these houses, it is not as if vast areas of Belfast have not been vested in the past. But in Ireland a stadia to be used by large numbers of the public seem to be deemed a private good.

However, Snatter has a point, the present location is mainly down to sectarianism.

You could buy the houses, halve the gardens and probably biuld new houses there and sell them to people happy enough with a short garden. The cost would not be that great.

No, I do not think that the present Casement site is down to sectarianism. I don't know where you got that from.

Casement was chosen because the GAA Ulster Council were advised by (an unknown & unpublished) consultancy report in 2010 that said Casement could accommodate a 40k fully covered stadium. Clearly it can't and never could - I do wish the original report was published, so all GAA members can see the basis for choosing a site that, whilst GAA-owned, was always too small and constrained.

--

RE Musgrave - I was making the obvious point that, whilst only a few hundred metres across the motorway, it is widely perceived as a neutral area. Consequently, it's more likely to attract the custom of Unionists for non-GAA events, eg concerts & conferences. With Unionists making up just short of 50% of the Grt Belfast population, that equates to more income. More income = less financial maintence burden in future.

--

RE Belfast City Council:  it is my view is that it is now clear that there are massive problems with ever getting the originally tendered 40k all seated & covered stadium on the Casement site.

That has been the case since
1. the capacity was dropped from the tendered 40k to 37k
2. the A'town Rd stand roof was removed, again to appease residents.
3. The official Northern Ireland Environment Agency report where their principal landscape architect slated the development, describing it as "overbearing" and not in keeping with its surroundings. See http://belfastmediagroup.com/new-setback-for-casement/
4. The improbability of the GAA being allowed to block main arterial routes for hours on event days.

The quality of what is now proposed falls well short of the project's original aims.

In such circumstances, I'd have expected Belfast City Council to have been proactive, and to jointly explore alternative locations with the GAA project team, in order that the originally planned top quality 40k fully covered stadium could be built. And built in Belfast. I'd have expected BCC to do this in recognition of the economic benefits of hosting a top class 40k stadium.

Approximately 10 months ago, BCC did have some "non-job" put out a press release about whether there was anything that BCC could do to facilitate or enhance the stadium developments at Windsor, Ravenhill & Casement. Reading the detail of the BCC initiative, it became clear that the main focus was to use the site of BCC's Olympia leisure centre to build a sports village alongside Windsor Park, enhancing and facilitating the Windsor redevelopment.

Now that the odds are stacked against Casement, why aren't BCC proactively looking at the feasability of granting Musgrave (or the Boucher Rd playing fields, or anywhere else) for the orignal 40k stadium proposed. Why aren't they engaging with the GAA to see how the best possible stadium & associated commercial facilities could be developed to give the best economic lift to Belfast?
Why aren't they examing how best they could use their power and influence to facilitate an alternative site?

That's what Cork adn Liverpool City Councils did.
Can any BCC staffers or councillors tell us why BCC aren't doing the same?

BCC need to step up to the mark and facilitate a much needed plan B. If they can use council property to facilitate the Windsor Park soccer development, then there's no reason they can't do the same for the GAA.

Bump

From the aerial photo there must be around 50 properties along the stadium perimeter each one costing around 150000 pounds (or more) - The GAA could end up with a hefty bill very quickly

They could end up with a big bill, but they can rebuild these or just sell them again and get most of the money back.

Or they could do what they should have done from the start - build the f*ing stadium on a site that's f*ing big enough.

That way, you can

• build it as high as you like.
• have a roof on all four sides.
• offer better views to more people by have the deepest stands down the sides of the pitches, not behind one of the goals.
• run as many concerts as you like (critical for long term running costs).
• avoid having to close one SW Belfast's arterial routes.
• avoid years of legal challenges which you will almost certainly lose..

It's simple. Not complicated.
The Casement site is, and always was too small.

If Belfast doesn't stump up a larger site, (eg Musgrave Park), then move it out to somewhere that wants it (and take the rugby world cup along with us).

Can one of our noble, hard working Belfast City Councillors tell us how much would a token 100 year lease on Musgrave Park would be? And then compare that to the cost of blackmail-buying an ever-increasing list of houses around Casement.

It won't take a forensic accountant to tell you that it would be cheaper, even now, to go down the route of a proper stadium on a new site rather than building 3/4 of a stadium involving the senseless purchase of several dozens of surrounding houses at inflated prices.

Bump

I've just had an idea.

What about building the stadium on a site big enough?

Like Musgrave Park, 300m away.

I think an upgrade of a stadium in Armagh/Tyrone is best, but can't see a brand new stadium being built. When was the last time a GAA stadium was built from scratch? I don't remember any.

Has no one been paying attention to the this the whole way through.

Ziggy said it earlier, this money has been ring fenced for Casement. It cannot and will not be directed to another project anywhere else.

Its Casement of bust I'm afraid.

Incorrect.

The original restrictions still stand, namely that all three sports are to spend the money on one stadium development each.

There have never been any restrictions on whether the stadiums should be refurbishments, greenfield sites, or ties to any given location.

The decision to spend the money on Casement was the GAA's, and the GAA's alone. After receiving (flawed) advice from an unnamed consultancy in 2010 that the site could accommodate a 40k stadium.

Most ( if not all ) of the resident v's GAA conflict could be engineered out if the O'Connell schools campus was moved to a new site in the Clonliffe College grounds.

A large plaza could then be created in front of Croker and could be used as the single entry point for the stadium. Croker could then be used a lot more, which is a win win for the whole country and the GAA.

Site:  http://binged.it/1w0RNso

Have a look at the link, specifically the playground areas to get an idea of how a large plaza could be created.

.

A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
2. There is NO BAN on having more than three events per year.
3. The promoter of the subsequent ( ie 4th and beyond) events have to apply for a Public Event Licence from DCC.

Here's the legalese ( lifted from http://votemcauliffe.com )

"An Bord Pleanála granted permission for the redevelopment of Croke Park Stadium on the 9th of March 1993 under Planning Permission Register Reference No. 0238/92. Condition 11 of the permission allows for three special events such as concerts per year to be held in the stadium under this permission subject to the approval of an event management plan which is required to be submitted by way of compliance submission to Dublin City Councils Planning Department.

Any additional concerts proposed to be held in Croke Park in excess of the three permitted per year under the permission must be applied for by way of a Public Event Licence application to Dublin City Council under the provisions of 230 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended. The application which can be for one or more events must be made a minimum of ten weeks prior to the first event."

Any suggestion that Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of three non sports events per year is entirely bogus.

FFS, this isn't difficult to understand. There is no maximum.

There is not one regulation anywhere, apart form some of your heads, that says Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of 3 events per year.

Croke Park is automatically allowed 3 events (subject to event management plan ) every year. This was granted as a condition under the original planning permission.

Subsequent legislation allows promoters to apply for as many further Croke Park events as they like, by applying to DCC for what are known as a Public Event Licences.

The reason DCC turned down the events licence wasn't that Croke Park had already had 3 events (under the Planning Permission). Rather, it was the 5 consecutuive days duration they objected to. Afaik, it's the first time anywhere that any council has ever turned down one of these event licence applications. Previously it was regarded as a rubber stamp exercise.

DCC did make it clear that 3 concerts in a row was fine, just not 5. Their judgement (for which no appeal mechanism exists) was purely subjective - nothing in any regulation or guidance states 3 consecutive days as a cut-off point.

Having said that, there's nothing in the current legislation or DCC's precedent to prevent promoters from applying for as many more CP concerts as they like, as long as they are only 3 consecutive days. As things stand right now, they could have three concerts a month, every month of the year, under DCC's new precedent.

Going forward, the best thing the Govt & GAA could do is to move the schools at the canal end, and make a proper plaza, through which all CP users would enter and exit. That's the blindingly obvious solution to all of this resident(or faux-resident) v's GAA conflict.

A lot of misinformation being spread about the number of events that Croke Park is allowed to hold each year.

It's quite simple:

1. The GAA is automatically ALLOWED three non-football events per year.
2. There is NO BAN on having more than three events per year.
3. The promoter of the subsequent ( ie 4th and beyond) events have to apply for a Public Event Licence from DCC.

Here's the legalese ( lifted from http://votemcauliffe.com )

"An Bord Pleanála granted permission for the redevelopment of Croke Park Stadium on the 9th of March 1993 under Planning Permission Register Reference No. 0238/92. Condition 11 of the permission allows for three special events such as concerts per year to be held in the stadium under this permission subject to the approval of an event management plan which is required to be submitted by way of compliance submission to Dublin City Councils Planning Department.

Any additional concerts proposed to be held in Croke Park in excess of the three permitted per year under the permission must be applied for by way of a Public Event Licence application to Dublin City Council under the provisions of 230 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 as amended. The application which can be for one or more events must be made a minimum of ten weeks prior to the first event."

Any suggestion that Croke Park is only allowed a maximum of three non sports events per year is entirely bogus.

Most ( if not all ) of the resident v's GAA conflict could be engineered out if the O'Connell schools campus was moved to a new site in the Clonliffe College grounds.

A large plaza could then be created in front of Croker and could be used as the single entry point for the stadium. Croker could then be used a lot more, which is a win win for the whole country and the GAA.

Site:  http://binged.it/1w0RNso

[Group seek judicial review over Casement]

Not much coverage on this, I'd have thought it was more threatening to the new stadium than the social club side show.

Group seek judicial review over Casement http://www.u.tv/Sport/Group-seek-judicial-review-over-Casement/61935990-c306-4c84-932f-96d4fbaa14f9

From the aerial photo there must be around 50 properties along the stadium perimeter each one costing around 150000 pounds (or more) - The GAA could end up with a hefty bill very quickly

They could end up with a big bill, but they can rebuild these or just sell them again and get most of the money back.

Or they could do what they should have done from the start - build the f*ing stadium on a site that's f*ing big enough.

That way, you can

• build it as high as you like.
• have a roof on all four sides.
• offer better views to more people by have the deepest stands down the sides of the pitches, not behind one of the goals.
• run as many concerts as you like (critical for long term running costs).
• avoid having to close one SW Belfast's arterial routes.
• avoid years of legal challenges which you will almost certainly lose..

It's simple. Not complicated.
The Casement site is, and always was too small.

If Belfast doesn't stump up a larger site, (eg Musgrave Park), then move it out to somewhere that wants it (and take the rugby world cup along with us).

Can one of our noble, hard working Belfast City Councillors tell us how much would a token 100 year lease on Musgrave Park would be? And then compare that to the cost of blackmail-buying an ever-increasing list of houses around Casement.

It won't take a forensic accountant to tell you that it would be cheaper, even now, to go down the route of a proper stadium on a new site rather than building 3/4 of a stadium involving the senseless purchase of several dozens of surrounding houses at inflated prices.

Fold Housing plan for former Visteon factory in west Belfast

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-25581367


The old Ford factory is

• a far larger site than Casement
• consequently much further away from residents
• is available for development right now
• has it's own access road
• is v close to Finaghy station

I wonder if some lateral thinking would allow the GAA to do some sort of a land swap with Fold, Casement for the Ford factory.

This would allow the GAA to

1. build a proper sized stadium with a roof on all four sides.
Planning permission would be straightforward for the GAA, as the stadium would be regarded as replacement economic activity, especially if some work units were incorporated into the build.
2. avoid an almost certain lengthy legal challenge from Casement residents, who may have a fair chance of winning.

Fold would benefit from planning,a s it's by no means certain that the planners will approve a change of use from economic activity to housing.

Any thoughts?

Check out the virtual flythrough of the new Casement Park/Páirc Mhic Asmaint stadium.

I loved the graphics of the snow falling on the shivering wretches on the uncovered A'town Rd stand.