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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Godsown on January 13, 2021, 09:16:15 AM

Title: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Godsown on January 13, 2021, 09:16:15 AM
24 hours on and not a whimper on the Mother and Baby Home Report. Does the board reflect the misogyny of the era or are people too caught up in US politics and Covid? Report is a damning indictment of Ireland  and the society that evolved post “Independence”
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2021, 09:30:06 AM
24 hours on and not a whimper on the Mother and Baby Home Report. Does the board reflect the misogyny of the era or are people too caught up in US politics and Covid? Report is a damning indictment of Ireland  and the society that evolved post “Independence”
Very sad to read. So many lives destroyed. the power of the Church at the time was unquestioned.The economy was a basket case until the early 1960s . Over half a million people emigrated and living standards were low. Unmarried  women were easy targets. 
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: sensethetone on January 13, 2021, 09:37:03 AM
It's such a grim topic, unbelievable that it could have happened for such a period of time.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: GetOverTheBar on January 13, 2021, 09:50:00 AM
It's such a grim topic, unbelievable that it could have happened for such a period of time.

I click by those news stories to be honest. Am I part of the problem? Maybe...It's hard to believe that kind of thing happened here, I don't think anyone is too caught up in anything else. What can we say? It's disgusting, embarrassing and shameful to us all.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 13, 2021, 09:59:40 AM
Watching a Danish thriller on BBC player, called DNA, when I say Danish its French/English and Polish..

Anyway the storyline is about a convent that takes in unmarried pregnant mothers and 'sells/adopt's' their babies off, Obviously fictional storyline but based on events that went/go on in modern day Poland, so this stuff was and is still going on around the world!!

Terrible that a institution like the Catholic Church allows this to happen
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: johnnycool on January 13, 2021, 10:56:47 AM
Watching a Danish thriller on BBC player, called DNA, when I say Danish its French/English and Polish..

Anyway the storyline is about a convent that takes in unmarried pregnant mothers and 'sells/adopt's' their babies off, Obviously fictional storyline but based on events that went/go on in modern day Poland, so this stuff was and is still going on around the world!!

Terrible that a institution like the Catholic Church allows this to happen

Allows is too kind of a word MR.

The Catholic Church created a culture where the likes of a young girl getting pregnant out of wedlock was seen as a shame and stain on the family and indeed parish/community and needed to be hidden away from "decent" society.

They were aided and abetted by weak governments driven by the same dogma through time.

What was uncovered in Tuam would make any organisation involved in that ashamed to their dying day, pro life my arse.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on January 13, 2021, 11:04:02 AM
Watching a Danish thriller on BBC player, called DNA, when I say Danish its French/English and Polish..

Anyway the storyline is about a convent that takes in unmarried pregnant mothers and 'sells/adopt's' their babies off, Obviously fictional storyline but based on events that went/go on in modern day Poland, so this stuff was and is still going on around the world!!

Terrible that a institution like the Catholic Church allows this to happen

Allows is too kind of a word MR.

The Catholic Church created a culture where the likes of a young girl getting pregnant out of wedlock was seen as a shame and stain on the family and indeed parish/community and needed to be hidden away from "decent" society.

They were aided and abetted by weak governments driven by the same dogma through time.

What was uncovered in Tuam would make any organisation involved in that ashamed to their dying day, pro life my arse.

+ 100. Exactly this.

57 thousand children passed through these homes with thousands more not included in the report. Staggering!
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Denn Forever on January 13, 2021, 11:17:16 AM
24 hours on and not a whimper on the Mother and Baby Home Report. Does the board reflect the misogyny of the era or are people too caught up in US politics and Covid? Report is a damning indictment of Ireland  and the society that evolved post “Independence”

I think it's the collective shame we feel.  i know what we'd hope we'd do but don't know if we would.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Taylor on January 13, 2021, 11:23:01 AM
The order of nuns who ran the Tuan Home have come out and said 'We did not live up to our Christianity'.

Like f**k me.

Horrific and something which all Irish people should be ashamed off
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: mrdeeds on January 13, 2021, 11:24:22 AM
One mother and baby home at Bessborough in the 1940s had an infant mortality rate of 82%. The national average was 6.6%. Shocking.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 13, 2021, 11:29:44 AM
One mother and baby home at Bessborough in the 1940s had an infant mortality rate of 82%. The national average was 6.6%. Shocking.

So the point of this series I'm watching was that a lot of the kids were handed over legally for adoption and signed form agreeing to it.

The other part was the nuns were illegally giving the babies off for adoption and saying the children were stillborn, when they clearly weren't. Again this is a fictional storyline, but its not unthinkable considering what they have done in the past!
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: five points on January 13, 2021, 11:30:52 AM
Watching a Danish thriller on BBC player, called DNA, when I say Danish its French/English and Polish..

Anyway the storyline is about a convent that takes in unmarried pregnant mothers and 'sells/adopt's' their babies off, Obviously fictional storyline but based on events that went/go on in modern day Poland, so this stuff was and is still going on around the world!!

Terrible that a institution like the Catholic Church allows this to happen

That particular storyline was rather silly though, and not at all believable.  The sort of "Priests peasants and pixies" stuff that British filmmakers used make about Ireland.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: J70 on January 13, 2021, 11:33:48 AM
Ireland was a sick, twisted place back then.

Like many societies where religion holds an outsize influence.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: macdanger2 on January 13, 2021, 11:34:37 AM
Watching a Danish thriller on BBC player, called DNA, when I say Danish its French/English and Polish..

Anyway the storyline is about a convent that takes in unmarried pregnant mothers and 'sells/adopt's' their babies off, Obviously fictional storyline but based on events that went/go on in modern day Poland, so this stuff was and is still going on around the world!!

Terrible that a institution like the Catholic Church allows this to happen

Allows is too kind of a word MR.

The Catholic Church created a culture where the likes of a young girl getting pregnant out of wedlock was seen as a shame and stain on the family and indeed parish/community and needed to be hidden away from "decent" society.

They were aided and abetted by weak governments driven by the same dogma through time.

What was uncovered in Tuam would make any organisation involved in that ashamed to their dying day, pro life my arse.

That pretty much sums it up for me, the culture of fear that existed in society which was created by the church (and abetted by the state) is a disgrace to us as a country
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Rossfan on January 13, 2021, 11:37:44 AM
24 hours on and not a whimper on the Mother and Baby Home Report. Does the board reflect the misogyny of the era or are people too caught up in US politics and Covid? Report is a damning indictment of Ireland  and the society that evolved post “Independence”
I would think it's because 99% of GAAboarders were born after all that stuff ended.
Also it's officially stating what we've been hearing for 25 years.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Itchy on January 13, 2021, 12:25:42 PM
Watching a Danish thriller on BBC player, called DNA, when I say Danish its French/English and Polish..

Anyway the storyline is about a convent that takes in unmarried pregnant mothers and 'sells/adopt's' their babies off, Obviously fictional storyline but based on events that went/go on in modern day Poland, so this stuff was and is still going on around the world!!

Terrible that a institution like the Catholic Church allows this to happen

Allows is too kind of a word MR.

The Catholic Church created a culture where the likes of a young girl getting pregnant out of wedlock was seen as a shame and stain on the family and indeed parish/community and needed to be hidden away from "decent" society.

They were aided and abetted by weak governments driven by the same dogma through time.

What was uncovered in Tuam would make any organisation involved in that ashamed to their dying day, pro life my arse.

That pretty much sums it up for me, the culture of fear that existed in society which was created by the church (and abetted by the state) is a disgrace to us as a country

The blame lies 100% at the church and its closeness to the state. These people educated our parents and grandparents, created this climate of fear and shame and then compounded it by running these hell holes. It is the main reason that would not darken the door of their rotten churches. If there is a hell that's where you will find them, those bishops, nuns and priests.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 12:30:42 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Light-Window-June-Goulding/dp/0091902053

If you have the time , read this book written by a midwife who worked in the Bessborough home

The reason this book is so important is that it was written by someone who had first hand experience of what went on, but unlike the “holy” nuns she was in the side of the “inmates”
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Itchy on January 13, 2021, 12:39:07 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Light-Window-June-Goulding/dp/0091902053

If you have the time , read this book written by a midwife who worked in the Bessborough home

The reason this book is so important is that it was written by someone who had first hand experience of what went on, but unlike the “holy” nuns she was in the side of the “inmates”

I doubt I could stomach it. I read someone else earlier saying they feel shame for this. I say cast of your catholic upbringing, stop giving these f**kers money. Pray direct to your god if you want to. You will feel a whole lot better about yourself. We should not feel shame about something that happened that we had no control on. 25 years ago I told the church to f**k off, best decision I ever made.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: dublin7 on January 13, 2021, 12:54:52 PM
An issue for me would be the fact someone leaked the report to the indo for a few quid. There's no political or personal gain for anyone or any party by doing it so it can only have been done for money.

Survivors of the home who expected to be given the report ahead of its publication would have seen it splashed all over the front of the paper last Sunday. That wasn't right but of course we'll never find out who leaked it

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 13, 2021, 12:58:00 PM
An issue for me would be the fact someone leaked the report to the indo for a few quid. There's no political or personal gain for anyone or any party by doing it so it can only have been done for money.

Survivors of the home who expected to be given the report ahead of its publication would have seen it splashed all over the front of the paper last Sunday. That wasn't right but of course we'll never find out who leaked it

I would say the families would have wished this was leaked out when it happened!!
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 01:10:09 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Light-Window-June-Goulding/dp/0091902053

If you have the time , read this book written by a midwife who worked in the Bessborough home

The reason this book is so important is that it was written by someone who had first hand experience of what went on, but unlike the “holy” nuns she was in the side of the “inmates”

I doubt I could stomach it. I read someone else earlier saying they feel shame for this. I say cast of your catholic upbringing, stop giving these f**kers money. Pray direct to your god if you want to. You will feel a whole lot better about yourself. We should not feel shame about something that happened that we had no control on. 25 years ago I told the church to f**k off, best decision I ever made.

The crazy thing is the nuns actually tried to trap this lady into never being able to leave to get married. If I have it on Kindle I’ll post up the details......apart from the other stuff, which we already knew, this was absolutely mind boggling
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: sid waddell on January 13, 2021, 01:32:40 PM
The climate of fear then which led to things like mother and baby homes, Magdalene laundries and industrial schools finds its equivalent in today's reactionary right-wing

It is Gemma O'Doherty, Hermann Kelly, anti-mask demonstrators, conspiracy theorists, John McGuirk and "Gript.ie", Leo Sherlock and "theLiberal.ie", David Quinn, Maria Steen and the IONA Institute, Peadar Toibin and Aontú, Lucinda Creighton and Renua, the No campaign in the Repeal the 8th referendum, rogue, lying, vulture crisis pregnancy agencies like Giannacare, the No campaign in the marriage referendum, anti-immigrant demonstrators, public figures like George Hook

It is important to know our rotten history and who and what was responsible for it

It is even more important to see who perpetuates that ideology today

They haven't gone away you know
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2021, 01:42:37 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/appalling-death-rates-the-mother-and-baby-homes-investigated-by-commission

The Commission’s report details how one entry from 1933 stated that a TD was responsible for “her trouble.”
She had been “going to Leinster House and creating scenes there, trying to see him” and had been sent to Regina Coeli “by the porter from Leinster House”.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: thewobbler on January 13, 2021, 01:44:37 PM
And there was me thinking that the reason mother and baby transitioned from an idea, to a policy, to a secret, to a scandal was because for decades nobody was willing or able to question whether the state was acting in our best interests.

Silly me and my rabbit holes.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: sid waddell on January 13, 2021, 01:47:55 PM
And there was me thinking that the reason mother and baby transitioned from an idea, to a policy, to a secret, to a scandal was because for decades nobody was willing or able to question whether the state was acting in our best interests.

Silly me and my rabbit holes.
Like a lot your posts, that's very cryptic

Please do expand
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: trailer on January 13, 2021, 02:18:00 PM
Every story is harrowing. Unique. Individual. Personal to that Mother, Child and Family. What happened are some of the most heinous of crimes of the 20th century. These institutions stole children. They stole Women. They stole lives. In many cases they murdered innocent children, deliberately and through sheer neglect. The Nuns, Priests and State all working in perfect unison. A perfect murderous dance. A factory. The similarities to what the systematic persecution of Jews and other groups by the Nazi party are uncanny. Forced Labour in concentration camps. A lot of people should be looking at a long time in prison. The thought of those mothers having their children stolen, as a father it makes me unbelievably angry.

Schools, Convents and these "homes" always attracted a certain Priest or a certain Nun. They should not be trusted and they should be told so.

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Armamike on January 13, 2021, 03:08:28 PM
While most of us weren't around during those times our generation is impacted through our family links back to these homes.  Some on this board may have had parents or grandparents born into these places before going on to be adopted.  The sense of shame and stigma that was fostered by the church ran deep within families and the lengths many went to to cover up the pregnancy is hard to fathom now.  There was a veil of silence around this where it was never spoken of again and only a small group of family members would have been privy to the truth. Birth fathers, inlaws etc. were often kept in the dark.  This was the kind of omertà that the church and its affect on society brought about.  As we've seen in many other situations, this level of demonisation allowed the perpetrators (nuns) to exercise sickening levels of inhumane treatment to mothers and innocent babies. I hope for their sake their God has shown them more mercy.  I think of the mothers who had to go through the rest of their lives carrying this terrible burden. Not knowing what became of their son/daughter, and not able to share their pain with others. As a parent now myself it's extremely sad.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 03:21:34 PM
The country was brainwashed

People actually believed back then that they would burn in Hell for all eternity-the buck with the horns, hot pokers..... the works

You didn’t dare cross, contradict or defy a priest or damnation would come down upon you and yours for generations to follow
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: five points on January 13, 2021, 03:25:05 PM
You didn’t dare cross, contradict or defy a priest or damnation would come down upon you and yours for generations to follow

Not really true, by the way. Local priests in my neck of the woods were mocked, sometimes to their faces, and ignored when I was growing up.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Itchy on January 13, 2021, 03:31:50 PM
You didn’t dare cross, contradict or defy a priest or damnation would come down upon you and yours for generations to follow

Not really true, by the way. Local priests in my neck of the woods were mocked, sometimes to their faces, and ignored when I was growing up.

Id suggest this was a minorty, you aren't suggesting that this was the way it was in wider society?
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 03:32:19 PM
You didn’t dare cross, contradict or defy a priest or damnation would come down upon you and yours for generations to follow

Not really true, by the way. Local priests in my neck of the woods were mocked, sometimes to their faces, and ignored when I was growing up.

Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: StephenC on January 13, 2021, 03:35:32 PM
An issue for me would be the fact someone leaked the report to the indo for a few quid. There's no political or personal gain for anyone or any party by doing it so it can only have been done for money.

Survivors of the home who expected to be given the report ahead of its publication would have seen it splashed all over the front of the paper last Sunday. That wasn't right but of course we'll never find out who leaked it

And let's not forget that the indo went looking to acquire this report, and they decided to publish it, knowing full well the hurt it would cause. The leaker deserved to be punished (fired) but I'd love to see the editors etc in the indo come out and justify what they did.

As for the report itself ... what do you say? Just sick, disgusting and depressing. Those poor people.

And then you have politicians rushing to score points off it ... religeous orders are sorry but no indication that they'll flash the cash ...

Just depressing. :(
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: five points on January 13, 2021, 03:35:37 PM
Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)

Cavan in the 70s.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 03:41:02 PM
Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)

Cavan in the 70s.

Makes sense. I’m referring more to the earlier decades after the foundation of the state
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Itchy on January 13, 2021, 03:44:13 PM
Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)

Cavan in the 70s.

I wonder, cos Cavan in the 1980s was still a religion obsessed place. Maybe you were in a more enlightened part of the county than me. The west certainly was trailing behind and I live  there now and there are pockets that are still stuck in the 50s.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: J70 on January 13, 2021, 03:46:03 PM
You didn’t dare cross, contradict or defy a priest or damnation would come down upon you and yours for generations to follow

Not really true, by the way. Local priests in my neck of the woods were mocked, sometimes to their faces, and ignored when I was growing up.

Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)

My auld lad spoke all the time about the power the priest wielded when he was growing up in Donegal. People's name being read out at mass for this or that, priest being up to his ears in every issue going in the area.

My mother grew up in the west. One story I've heard from her end is how my aunt, a leftie, was basically beaten into learning to write with her right hand by the nuns.

My father, also a lefty, did not suffer the same abuse. The Diocese of Raphoe must have been a bit more relaxed about "sinister" ciotogs.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: imtommygunn on January 13, 2021, 03:52:39 PM
The left handed thing I think happened to my uncle too in the north. My aunt also had bad experiences in the same family. (not from being left handed but other stuff)

I would have said in 80s and 90s it was still the same where I'm from though we still had a fairly old school priest.

Nothing as bad as anything here but you can definitely see scar marks on older generations in the family from various goings on.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: five points on January 13, 2021, 03:55:11 PM
Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)

Cavan in the 70s.

I wonder, cos Cavan in the 1980s was still a religion obsessed place. Maybe you were in a more enlightened part of the county than me. The west certainly was trailing behind and I live  there now and there are pockets that are still stuck in the 50s.

Nothing to do with enlightenment.

A visiting parish priest in national school once told us not to play gaelic as he said GAA clubs only encouraged drinking. Our parents laughed when we went home and told them. We kept going to the football.

Another parish priest wanted to merge our school with another. There was an angry response from parents who denounced him to his face at a public meeting. He dropped the merger plans.

There were other rows with another priest over GAA club functions held in local pubs. People listened politely to him and then ignored him.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 04:06:39 PM
Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)

Cavan in the 70s.

I wonder, cos Cavan in the 1980s was still a religion obsessed place. Maybe you were in a more enlightened part of the county than me. The west certainly was trailing behind and I live  there now and there are pockets that are still stuck in the 50s.

In very rural parts of the West, old people would still be afraid of priests to this day

Someone (about 10 years ago) pointed out an abandoned house to me that was supposedly cursed by a priest in the 50s.

There was a dispute over a right of way or a property line and the farmer opposed the priest.

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 13, 2021, 04:15:46 PM
Not a difference in opinions here, will keep someone out thankfully
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Itchy on January 13, 2021, 04:21:32 PM
Where and when was that?

(It definitely wasn’t the case in the West of Ireland up until the early 70s)

Cavan in the 70s.

I wonder, cos Cavan in the 1980s was still a religion obsessed place. Maybe you were in a more enlightened part of the county than me. The west certainly was trailing behind and I live  there now and there are pockets that are still stuck in the 50s.

Nothing to do with enlightenment.

A visiting parish priest in national school once told us not to play gaelic as he said GAA clubs only encouraged drinking. Our parents laughed when we went home and told them. We kept going to the football.

Another parish priest wanted to merge our school with another. There was an angry response from parents who denounced him to his face at a public meeting. He dropped the merger plans.

There were other rows with another priest over GAA club functions held in local pubs. People listened politely to him and then ignored him.

 ;D For f**k sake, its Cavan and Football. Sure only a daft bollix of a priest would interfere with that, sure it is the true religion of Cavan.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: trailer on January 13, 2021, 04:24:05 PM
Home Rule is Rome Rule. Unbelievable how true that turned out to be.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Cunny Funt on January 13, 2021, 04:39:50 PM
Ireland was a sick, twisted place back then.

Like many societies where religion holds an outsize influence.

Most certainly was and can't even imagine what the rest of the world are thinking when they read this story about us. Ridiculous the power religion held on this island.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: sid waddell on January 13, 2021, 04:41:09 PM
The Catholic Church, backed up by the state, are obviously the main culprits for the culture of fear and conformity that permeated the whole of society

But what sort of responsibility do ordinary people of the time bear? Because nobody can tell me that parents of young women who acquiesced with sending their daughters to mother and baby homes do not bear some responsibility - though in some ways these parents were also victims - of brainwashing - sort of like how Trump's foot soldiers are victims of brainwashing, but also guilty of buying wholesale into a rotten culture

To go against this culture of conformity required courage and critical thinking and an unbreakable moral compass, it required immense bravery for sure, but a culture of fear can only rule if ordinary people acquiesce

It was a culture of crushing conformity - of strict patriarchy, of soft tyranny, somewhat similar in mindset if not always in law to that in post war European authoritarian regimes

But authoritarian regimes and authoritarian ideologies can only survive if people voluntarily submit

Everything was about conformity - you had to be straight, get married, have children in wedlock only, the mother stayed at home while the father went to work

Anything outside this norm brought "shame" to those individuals involved and their families - fornication, children out of wedlock, homosexuality, contraception, marriage break up, women getting ideas "above their station"

Corporal punishment was rampant, the Christian Brothers and others terrorised children, and the GAA perpetuated this official culture - "Faith Of Our Fathers" was sung at the All-Irelands, JC McQuaid threw in the ball, kissing the Archbishop's ring

Ordinary people, the foot soldiers for the Church/State regime, participated in the perpetuation of this culture of shaming and ostracising those who did not conform

If one thing changed Ireland, it was technology, it was the increasing influence of Britain and America

From about the late 1950s on, things changed gradually

The marriage bar in the Civil Service was only abolished in 1973, things like the Eileen Flynn case were still happening in 1982, when a teacher in Wexford was sacked for becoming pregnant by a separated man, in the 1980s Ireland voted for the 8th Amendment and to reject divorce

But then, at the start of the 1990s, they changed suddenly

It is hard to believe, but homosexuality was still criminalised as late as 1993, marital rape was still legal as late as 1990, in the early 1990s contraception was still only available on prescription - the "Irish solution to an Irish problem", as Haughey put it

The years 1990 to 1992 - particularly 1992, changed everything - Mná na hÉireann asserted themselves, and then the Bishop Casey scandal turned the tide against the Catholic Church once and for all, the 29 years since have been a litany of expositions of shame for the Catholic Church, one after another

In 1992 Lavinia Kerwick went public as a rape victim, The X Case happened, and for the first time the Irish people voted to enshrine women's right to an abortion

Then things changed gradually again, before picking up speed again in the decade just gone, and really only in 2018 when the 8th Amendment was abolished was this process finally completed - if it actually has been - and that's debatable

A certain conformity to those old "norms" does still exist, it will never go away entirely I think, not in my lifetime anyway

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: five points on January 13, 2021, 04:42:13 PM
Ireland was a sick, twisted place back then.

Like many societies where religion holds an outsize influence.

Most certainly was and can't even imagine what the rest of the world are thinking when they read this story about us. Ridiculous the power religion held on this island.

Britain had mother and baby homes too. And it hasn't been a religious country for at least a century.  I'm sure other countries had them too.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Rudi on January 13, 2021, 04:48:06 PM
Very sad what went on in these homes, industrial schools & laundries. Religious orders were bereft of empathy & basic humanity, the "fallen" in society were dehumanised to shocking levels of degradation. I have read a few books & watched a few films over the years on these type of places run by the religious orders & I am left with an enormous amount of sympathy for all the women, babies & children that perished at these horofic places. I believe in God, some of his alleged followers were some of the worst type of animal you can get.
Power can be an awful thing in the wrong hands & the fact that hardly anyone spoke up, gives you an idea of the control the church had at the time. Its probably to late to see any of the offenders get the rough justice they deserve, most are dead or at deaths door.
There was bound to be some heroic good ones who did their best to alleviate some of the pain, not all of them can be tarnished with the same brush.
i hope the mothers & children still left, live out the rest of their lives in the best possible happiness they can find.   
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: sid waddell on January 13, 2021, 04:58:01 PM
Ireland was a sick, twisted place back then.

Like many societies where religion holds an outsize influence.

Most certainly was and can't even imagine what the rest of the world are thinking when they read this story about us. Ridiculous the power religion held on this island.

Britain had mother and baby homes too. And it hasn't been a religious country for at least a century.  I'm sure other countries had them too.
The ideology of Catholic conformity in this country was merely Victorian patriarchy repackaged - and yes I am aware of the irony of dubbing something named after a female monarch as patriarchy, but that's what it was

The rural, sparsely populated nature of Ireland as opposed to the industrial nature of Britain stifled ideas and stifled change

Britain's empire and its role in the war and the lessons that arose from that, and the population movements that arose from that, ironically also helped open it to new ideas that Ireland was not opened up to until later - Ireland never attracted immigrants in any sort of numbers until the 1990s, that prevented significant change until then, and emigration further stifled it

But Britain has always maintained a deeply conservative streak too, in some ways its opening up to new ideas may have deepened that conservative streak among the conservative - and that's something you also see in America





Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Orior on January 13, 2021, 05:12:53 PM
Lots of tut-tutting and shaking of heads in disbelief. The whole sad affair will never be repeated, so I don't think there is any need for lessons learnt.

The foundation of Religion is built on fear so that a select few can control masses of people. However, there were (and still are) a lot of good priests and nuns who joined for the right reasons and devoted their lives to God and saving souls. They are also there when bad things happen and we need support. My point is let's not throw the.... well bad analogy.... but you know what I mean.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: sid waddell on January 13, 2021, 05:23:43 PM
In 2005 Kevin Myers wrote an article in the Irish Times in which he continually referenced "mothers of bastards"

The Irish Times and Myers parted company soon afterwards, Myers moved to the Irish Independent

In some quarters, Myers was framed as a victim

But he wasn't

It is rather Orwellian how an ideology of vilification of people for having children out of wedlock - which for many years created real victims - has now itself claimed the clothes of the victim
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Bord na Mona man on January 13, 2021, 05:29:09 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 05:42:12 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?

A lot of people were pushed into it .....very religious parents conned them into thinking they had a “vocation”-ie an imaginary person with super powers whispering you to do it

I know one family that had 6 daughters-5 became nuns (and then all subsequently quit)

Can you imagine the frustration and resentment that fostered in those young women. Quitting religious orders was yet another embarrassment for the family that was to be avoided at all cost
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 13, 2021, 06:19:19 PM
24 hours on and not a whimper on the Mother and Baby Home Report. Does the board reflect the misogyny of the era or are people too caught up in US politics and Covid? Report is a damning indictment of Ireland  and the society that evolved post “Independence”
Thanks for starting the discussion.  The 'misogyny' is still there, plain as day in the Catholic Church.  How women still support that Church is almost beyond me.  My mother turned her back on it, as have my five sisters and three brothers.   An insult to intelligence.

One point I would like to add is that "forced adoption" continued for a long time, right in to the 1980s in my home area.  Except now it was the laity of Marriage Encounter, for example, who were facilitating it - daughters from rural South Derry going for an 'extended stay' in Derry City or Belfast and coming home without the baby to whom they had given birth.  Back to school for the mother.  All because of the shame perpetuated by the Parish Priest.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 13, 2021, 06:36:45 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?

A lot of people were pushed into it .....very religious parents conned them into thinking they had a “vocation”-ie an imaginary person with super powers whispering you to do it

I know one family that had 6 daughters-5 became nuns (and then all subsequently quit)

Can you imagine the frustration and resentment that fostered in those young women. Quitting religious orders was yet another embarrassment for the family that was to be avoided at all cost
Yer dead right all the way…...
But many parents acted for practical reasons too. I had a teaching colleague once who was a headcase if I ever met one.
Seems his mother called him aside one day when he was fifteen or so and told him, “John is the oldest so he will get the farm. Michaely will be sent to university and you , me bucko, will be a christain brother. At least you'll get three square meals a day and a roof over your head.”
Yer man tried to protest but she shut him up. Yer bags are packed and the hackney car will be here in a half hour.”
So my mate wound up in the brothers and he hated being there. After a few years of pure hello, he finally decided to quit. His superiors treated him like a leper.
He was sent to his room to pray and make atonement for hios sins. When all others had retired for the night, he was summoned downstairs where his bags were packed , he got a train ticket to his hometown and was told never to darken the door again.
He was already a qualified primary teacher so he took up a teaching job and he completely overreacted when he was free of the brothers’ regime.
He told me most of the brothers had no religious vocations, it was either the brothers or the boat. Times were hard and parents were hard-headed.
I don't know a lot about nuns in general but from some I used to know I was told that not every girl wound up in convents because they wanted to be there. Either their parents forced them to join or some fella had let them down. In other words, genuine, holy Mary nuns were as scarce as hen’s teeth.
No wonder their nickname was mickey dodgers.
Bonking was always an Irish national pastime and as there was very little money floating about, the number of illegitimate kids had to be kept as low as possible. But since incest was also a national pastime, many innocent girls were raped by their fatheres or brothers or some near relative.
From what I was told, houses were small, often only two bedrooms, so the growing boys and girls had to share a small cramped room with only a blanket screen to separate the sexes and you know the rest….
Since out of wedlock births were considered occasions of sin and girls who got pregnant had to be kept out of sight so off to the nunnery in the Morris Minor was the only way to go
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Bord na Mona man on January 13, 2021, 06:46:04 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?

A lot of people were pushed into it .....very religious parents conned them into thinking they had a “vocation”-ie an imaginary person with super powers whispering you to do it

I know one family that had 6 daughters-5 became nuns (and then all subsequently quit)

Can you imagine the frustration and resentment that fostered in those young women. Quitting religious orders was yet another embarrassment for the family that was to be avoided at all cost
Yes, I'd say many of them were dumped into the order.
I'd guess a lot of them were bitter spinster types who resented the 'fallen' ladies being desirable to opposite sex.

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 13, 2021, 06:51:44 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?

A lot of people were pushed into it .....very religious parents conned them into thinking they had a “vocation”-ie an imaginary person with super powers whispering you to do it

I know one family that had 6 daughters-5 became nuns (and then all subsequently quit)

Can you imagine the frustration and resentment that fostered in those young women. Quitting religious orders was yet another embarrassment for the family that was to be avoided at all cost
Yer dead right all the way…...
But many parents acted for practical reasons too. I had a teaching colleague once who was a headcase if I ever met one.
Seems his mother called him aside one day when he was fifteen or so and told him, “John is the oldest so he will get the farm. Michaely will be sent to university and you , me bucko, will be a christain brother. At least you'll get three square meals a day and a roof over your head.”
Yer man tried to protest but she shut him up. Yer bags are packed and the hackney car will be here in a half hour.”
So my mate wound up in the brothers and he hated being there. After a few years of pure hello, he finally decided to quit. His superiors treated him like a leper.
He was sent to his room to pray and make atonement for hios sins. When all others had retired for the night, he was summoned downstairs where his bags were packed , he got a train ticket to his hometown and was told never to darken the door again.
He was already a qualified primary teacher so he took up a teaching job and he completely overreacted when he was free of the brothers’ regime.
He told me most of the brothers had no religious vocations, it was either the brothers or the boat. Times were hard and parents were hard-headed.
I don't know a lot about nuns in general but from some I used to know I was told that not every girl wound up in convents because they wanted to be there. Either their parents forced them to join or some fella had let them down. In other words, genuine, holy Mary nuns were as scarce as hen’s teeth.
No wonder their nickname was mickey dodgers.
Bonking was always an Irish national pastime and as there was very little money floating about, the number of illegitimate kids had to be kept as low as possible. But since incest was also a national pastime, many innocent girls were raped by their fatheres or brothers or some near relative.
From what I was told, houses were small, often only two bedrooms, so the growing boys and girls had to share a small cramped room with only a blanket screen to separate the sexes and you know the rest….
Since out of wedlock births were considered occasions of sin and girls who got pregnant had to be kept out of sight so off to the nunnery in the Morris Minor was the only way to go
Some families did not bend to the tune of Catholic Church and supported their daughters by raising the new arrival as a late child, not a grandchild.   Some families had much more integrity than the Bishops.

A National Pastime?  Not the description I would choose.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Main Street on January 13, 2021, 07:46:06 PM
It all feels a bit too rushed to me,  in a bid to get the whole sordid saga, signed sealed and delivered as a finished package, all in a few days after a wait of 5 years.
Every witness record is equally important yet some statements were altered afterwards, radically changing the import of the witnesses' statement.

Not to diminish the high infant mortality rates recorded (40%) inside these homes in the  1930's 1940's,  but it's a meaningless exercise to compare those figures to the national average.  It would be of more value to be compared to those figures  in the lowest strata of Irish society in the notorious city centre slums of Dublin, Cork  and Limerick.

 I'll only be able to manage a read of the 75 page summary later .
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2021, 08:09:32 PM
Home Rule is Rome Rule. Unbelievable how true that turned out to be.
It was fairly predictable in the run up to independence.
Once the religious lost power the economy overtook NI.
Now there's no comparison.

The contrast between the romance of independence and the grubby reality is covered in the book Woodbrook by David Thomson.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3263899-woodbrook
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 13, 2021, 09:08:52 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?

A lot of people were pushed into it .....very religious parents conned them into thinking they had a “vocation”-ie an imaginary person with super powers whispering you to do it

I know one family that had 6 daughters-5 became nuns (and then all subsequently quit)

Can you imagine the frustration and resentment that fostered in those young women. Quitting religious orders was yet another embarrassment for the family that was to be avoided at all cost
Yer dead right all the way…...
But many parents acted for practical reasons too. I had a teaching colleague once who was a headcase if I ever met one.
Seems his mother called him aside one day when he was fifteen or so and told him, “John is the oldest so he will get the farm. Michaely will be sent to university and you , me bucko, will be a christain brother. At least you'll get three square meals a day and a roof over your head.”
Yer man tried to protest but she shut him up. Yer bags are packed and the hackney car will be here in a half hour.”
So my mate wound up in the brothers and he hated being there. After a few years of pure hello, he finally decided to quit. His superiors treated him like a leper.
He was sent to his room to pray and make atonement for hios sins. When all others had retired for the night, he was summoned downstairs where his bags were packed , he got a train ticket to his hometown and was told never to darken the door again.
He was already a qualified primary teacher so he took up a teaching job and he completely overreacted when he was free of the brothers’ regime.
He told me most of the brothers had no religious vocations, it was either the brothers or the boat. Times were hard and parents were hard-headed.
I don't know a lot about nuns in general but from some I used to know I was told that not every girl wound up in convents because they wanted to be there. Either their parents forced them to join or some fella had let them down. In other words, genuine, holy Mary nuns were as scarce as hen’s teeth.
No wonder their nickname was mickey dodgers.
Bonking was always an Irish national pastime and as there was very little money floating about, the number of illegitimate kids had to be kept as low as possible. But since incest was also a national pastime, many innocent girls were raped by their fatheres or brothers or some near relative.
From what I was told, houses were small, often only two bedrooms, so the growing boys and girls had to share a small cramped room with only a blanket screen to separate the sexes and you know the rest….
Since out of wedlock births were considered occasions of sin and girls who got pregnant had to be kept out of sight so off to the nunnery in the Morris Minor was the only way to go
Some families did not bend to the tune of Catholic Church and supported their daughters by raising the new arrival as a late child, not a grandchild.   Some families had much more integrity than the Bishops.

A National Pastime?  Not the description I would choose.
I understand what you ar saying but the truth needs to be told. I had a number of uncles ho were born around the turn of the century  and at different times I discussed their growing up experiences with each of them.
There was a remarkable unanimity of opinion when it came to illegitimate births and the sexual practices of their times. Maybe covert sexual practices would describe the experiences more accurately. My father in law was a younger man but his account of growing up in rural Cavan was very similar.
There was absolutely no sex education of any sort. The subject was taboo so children had to try and understand their growling sexual feelings  without any clear instruction on what was happening to their bodies and minds.
Bear in mind that the number of pregnant girls who were pushed into Mother and Baby homes do not reflect the actual number of out of wedlock pregnancies.
Probably as many more were shipped doff to England. Liverpool in particular seemed the place the greatest number were sent to.
Others simply had abortions whether they liked it or not.
The stats just released are horrifying but they don't tell the full story- not by a long shot.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Snapchap on January 13, 2021, 09:17:18 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?

The same sort of society that today tolerates Direct Provision.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Rossfan on January 13, 2021, 09:21:07 PM
Home Rule is Rome Rule. Unbelievable how true that turned out to be.


The contrast between the romance of independence and the grubby reality is covered in the book Woodbrook by David Thomson.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3263899-woodbrook
Not a million miles to the North of me. A relation of mine was mentioned in it.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: From the Bunker on January 13, 2021, 10:10:11 PM
The following were the reasons this happened:

A new Independent state.

A poor independent state.

A class system.

Majority of the population living in Poverty.

Majority of the population uneducated.

Catholic Clergy stepping in to help out the Government maintain structures in this poverty.

Catholic Church taking control of our Hospitals, our Schools, our dance halls, our society, our belief system, our morals.

They controlled everything. Anyone who would dare take them on was going to lose and lose big time.

Life in Ireland up to the 50's was pretty unstructured in Ireland. Kids (especially in rural parts) went sporadically to school. Most men worked as farmers, women stayed at home. Most were self sufficient and often living on the edge of poverty. People spent little or no money (because they earned little or no money). Immigration was rife.

I was told a story once of a Old female widow who ran a Pub in the 50's!  The Toilet facilities were primitive. In other words there were no Toilets. One day she was out the back sorting bottles and she seen a Priest having a Pee. The innocence of the woman was she could not believe that the Priest had a Penis! She thought in some magical way he was born without one?







Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Main Street on January 13, 2021, 10:28:58 PM
What sort of society was it to produce such sadistic nuns?

The same sort of society that today tolerates Direct Provision.
And yet the society that tolerates Direct Provision or/and discrimates towards Travellers doesn't define that as being a serious part of the high idea of  what they think their society is about (compassionate, caring, 'christian' etc).  Somehow those dark aspects of society are wrapped up,  stored away and everybody else gets on with their happy Irish lives. Not too dissimilar to how irish society could have  tolerated the existance of those horrid incarcerations and the primitive religious /social prejudices that nurtured them.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: weareros on January 13, 2021, 10:57:16 PM
The following were the reasons this happened:

A new Independent state.

A poor independent state.

A class system.

Majority of the population living in Poverty.

Majority of the population uneducated.

Catholic Clergy stepping in to help out the Government maintain structures in this poverty.

Catholic Church taking control of our Hospitals, our Schools, our dance halls, our society, our belief system, our morals.

They controlled everything. Anyone who would dare take them on was going to lose and lose big time.

Life in Ireland up to the 50's was pretty unstructured in Ireland. Kids (especially in rural parts) went sporadically to school. Most men worked as farmers, women stayed at home. Most were self sufficient and often living on the edge of poverty. People spent little or no money (because they earned little or no money). Immigration was rife.

I was told a story once of a Old female widow who ran a Pub in the 50's!  The Toilet facilities were primitive. In other words there were no Toilets. One day she was out the back sorting bottles and she seen a Priest having a Pee. The innocence of the woman was she could not believe that the Priest had a Penis! She thought in some magical way he was born without one?

Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 13, 2021, 11:02:08 PM
The following were the reasons this happened:

A new Independent state.

A poor independent state.

A class system.

Majority of the population living in Poverty.

Majority of the population uneducated.

Catholic Clergy stepping in to help out the Government maintain structures in this poverty.

Catholic Church taking control of our Hospitals, our Schools, our dance halls, our society, our belief system, our morals.

They controlled everything. Anyone who would dare take them on was going to lose and lose big time.

Life in Ireland up to the 50's was pretty unstructured in Ireland. Kids (especially in rural parts) went sporadically to school. Most men worked as farmers, women stayed at home. Most were self sufficient and often living on the edge of poverty. People spent little or no money (because they earned little or no money). Immigration was rife.

I was told a story once of a Old female widow who ran a Pub in the 50's!  The Toilet facilities were primitive. In other words there were no Toilets. One day she was out the back sorting bottles and she seen a Priest having a Pee. The innocence of the woman was she could not believe that the Priest had a Penis! She thought in some magical way he was born without one?

Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please. 
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 13, 2021, 11:03:28 PM
A cousin of mine got a girl “in trouble” in the early-mid 80s (they couldn’t even say the word pregnant)

When she announced the news at home (she was the youngest daughter of backward elderly parents) all hell broke loose. I believe she got kicked out of the house and was told that if my cousin of anyone belonging to him showed up at their door they should expect both barrels of the shotgun

The girls sister who was a nurse arranged for her to enter a home where she had the baby and he was put up for adoption

After his adoptive parents passed away he sought them out and they have had a reconciliation.

That’s how fvcked up things were in the 80s

Now imagine what they were like in the 40s and 50s
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: J70 on January 13, 2021, 11:11:25 PM
My neighbours shut confined their pregnant, unmarried daughter to the house once she started to show.

Everyone knew anyway, even us kids!

And this was only the 80s as well.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 13, 2021, 11:24:00 PM
I worked with a married couple years ago, both teachers and a fantastic pair you’d ever meet, both came to London and did their teacher training in London during the late 60’s, while not married but together they fell pregnant, the fear for them was that they would be looked upon back home has dirt!

They stayed in London longer during terms (though at that time they would have stayed all year) they gave the child up for adoption..

Came home couple years later got married, had 3 more kids and put it behind them, though never forgetting the girl they gave up..

30 years went by and someone got in touch with them, the child decided to find her parents, she’d been brought up in Dublin, lived 120 miles down the road from them the whole time!

She told me that her heart was pounding and felt she was going to die when they met up in Dublin, There was tears and heartbreak, anger and regret. The fact that her parents ended up married and had a family caused resentment no doubt.

But 20 years on hey have an unbreakable bond.

This happened because of the times, the grandmother was falling ill and the daughter only had the courage near her mums death to actually tell her of the pregnancy in London and how they gave up her granddaughter.. her mum cried for days.

I remember the story so well and was absolutely gobsmacked that something like this actually happened. Horrendous how people felt that this was the best way out!

Society and religion at fault, while blame can be left fairly at the door of the Catholic Church for those convent places, society placed pressure on people to ‘do the right thing’
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Gmac on January 13, 2021, 11:24:37 PM
My neighbours shut confined their pregnant, unmarried daughter to the house once she started to show.

Everyone knew anyway, even us kids!

And this was only the 80s as well.
if Ireland has embraced the Protestant religion way back when it would have made Irish history a lot less painful these types of crimes would never have happened or clerical abuse , the country would probably never have been   partitioned and all the troubles and violence that brought with it .
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 13, 2021, 11:27:34 PM
My neighbours shut confined their pregnant, unmarried daughter to the house once she started to show.

Everyone knew anyway, even us kids!

And this was only the 80s as well.
if Ireland has embraced the Protestant religion way back when it would have made Irish history a lot less painful these types of crimes would never have happened or clerical abuse , the country would probably never have been   partitioned and all the troubles and violence that brought with it .
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.thejournal.ie/sexual-abuse-cover-up-kincora-1941502-Feb2015/%3famp=1

There has been some
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: mrdeeds on January 14, 2021, 09:31:04 AM
The Cavan orphanage fire was another tragedy in 1943. 35 children died because the nuns wouldn't let them leave the burning building as they didn't want them to be seen in their nightgowns.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: 6th sam on January 14, 2021, 09:33:10 AM
In the midst of disgust we all feel, what I would like to see in response to these public enquiries is that the focus is on the victims.
With other abuse scandals and inquiries to date, there is quite rightly reflection and apology , but it appears to me that governments and institutions perpetuate difficulties for victims by delaying compensation or failing to show meaningful empathy and support for victims. Everybody appears to agree What happened  was inexcusable, and it’s easy to condemn things that happened years ago with most of the perpetrators faceless and dead. However it appears to me that we continue to put victims through the wringer with prolonged enquiries, followed by hand wringing, but then further procrastination and delay, until
Victims are either frail elderly or dead. This is not unique to these church related scandals. Surely there’s a better way of giving victims quicker and more meaningful recognition, support and compensation.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: johnnycool on January 14, 2021, 09:43:19 AM
In the midst of disgust we all feel, what I would like to see in response to these public enquiries is that the focus is on the victims.
With other abuse scandals and inquiries to date, there is quite rightly reflection and apology , but it appears to me that governments and institutions perpetuate difficulties for victims by delaying compensation or failing to show meaningful empathy and support for victims. Everybody appears to agree What happened  was inexcusable, and it’s easy to condemn things that happened years ago with most of the perpetrators faceless and dead. However it appears to me that we continue to put victims through the wringer with prolonged enquiries, followed by hand wringing, but then further procrastination and delay, until
Victims are either frail elderly or dead. This is not unique to these church related scandals. Surely there’s a better way of giving victims quicker and more meaningful recognition, support and compensation.

Do you not think this is by design?

It didn't take anyone in the 21st century to realise this was wrong but the delays and procrastination is partly due to the fact that a lot of those responsible were still alive and those in power then hadn't the balls to face up to them. It's only when a lot of those involved have passed on that those in places of responsibility felt comfortable politically taking this on.

The ball-less wonders who fill positions of political power are still with us and Mr Martin is a prime example of this. He certainly would not have been so willing to read out the reports findings if he thought in any way there would have been a negative impact to his political career.
Some things never change.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: 6th sam on January 14, 2021, 09:53:34 AM
In the midst of disgust we all feel, what I would like to see in response to these public enquiries is that the focus is on the victims.
With other abuse scandals and inquiries to date, there is quite rightly reflection and apology , but it appears to me that governments and institutions perpetuate difficulties for victims by delaying compensation or failing to show meaningful empathy and support for victims. Everybody appears to agree What happened  was inexcusable, and it’s easy to condemn things that happened years ago with most of the perpetrators faceless and dead. However it appears to me that we continue to put victims through the wringer with prolonged enquiries, followed by hand wringing, but then further procrastination and delay, until
Victims are either frail elderly or dead. This is not unique to these church related scandals. Surely there’s a better way of giving victims quicker and more meaningful recognition, support and compensation.

Do you not think this is by design?

It didn't take anyone in the 21st century to realise this was wrong but the delays and procrastination is partly due to the fact that a lot of those responsible were still alive and those in power then hadn't the balls to face up to them. It's only when a lot of those involved have passed on that those in places of responsibility felt comfortable politically taking this on.

The ball-less wonders who fill positions of political power are still with us and Mr Martin is a prime example of this. He certainly would not have been so willing to read out the reports findings if he thought in any way there would have been a negative impact to his political career.
Some things never change.

These delays , make absolutely no sense if the focus is on victims, which it is supposed to be. The only people benefitting from the delays are those that should be making active compensation and meaningful support, and those in legal system , who are presumably being paid throughout ( not getting the boot into Soliciters etc, they are just going their job) . This delaying is so common , it’s hard to believe it’s not a tactic. This delay by contributing to the stress of victims is even more unacceptable because it’s by current governments and institutions, as opposed to faceless figures from the past. Very very sad.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2021, 09:56:29 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 14, 2021, 10:18:59 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: trailer on January 14, 2021, 10:25:15 AM
Home Rule is Rome Rule. Unbelievable how true that turned out to be.
It was fairly predictable in the run up to independence.
Once the religious lost power the economy overtook NI.
Now there's no comparison.

The contrast between the romance of independence and the grubby reality is covered in the book Woodbrook by David Thomson.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3263899-woodbrook

Thanks I must pick that up.
Very true once Ireland threw off the shackles of Religion their economy went into overdrive and the people have prospered.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2021, 10:38:52 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?

Where the fundamental human rights of people, many of whom are children, are being abused (with the support of the state, and for profit), then your question is wholly irrelevant. Irish society has the opportunity now to get onto the right side of history on this one.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 14, 2021, 11:33:46 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?

Where the fundamental human rights of people, many of whom are children, are being abused (with the support of the state, and for profit), then your question is wholly irrelevant. Irish society has the opportunity now to get onto the right side of history on this one.


Why don’t you just answer the question I asked ? (Perhaps the answer undermines your narrative)
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: APM on January 14, 2021, 11:34:14 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.


That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 14, 2021, 11:38:22 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.


That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2021, 11:39:42 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?

Where the fundamental human rights of people, many of whom are children, are being abused (with the support of the state, and for profit), then your question is wholly irrelevant. Irish society has the opportunity now to get onto the right side of history on this one.


Why don’t you just answer the question I asked ? (Perhaps the answer undermines your narrative)

Or perhaps you're trying to suggest that if someone's application for asylum is deemed fraudulent, that they and their children deserve to have their human rights abused for profit. There were no doubt people who knew what was going on in mother and baby homes too, and made excuses for it.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 14, 2021, 11:42:28 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?

Where the fundamental human rights of people, many of whom are children, are being abused (with the support of the state, and for profit), then your question is wholly irrelevant. Irish society has the opportunity now to get onto the right side of history on this one.


Why don’t you just answer the question I asked ? (Perhaps the answer undermines your narrative)

Or perhaps you're trying to suggest that if someone's application for asylum is deemed fraudulent, that they and their children deserve to have their human rights abused for profit. There were no doubt people who knew what was going on in mother and baby homes too, and made excuses for it.

Fair enough-you’re not willing to answer the question!
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 14, 2021, 11:49:15 AM
My neighbours shut confined their pregnant, unmarried daughter to the house once she started to show.

Everyone knew anyway, even us kids!

And this was only the 80s as well.
if Ireland has embraced the Protestant religion way back when it would have made Irish history a lot less painful these types of crimes would never have happened or clerical abuse , the country would probably never have been   partitioned and all the troubles and violence that brought with it .
That’s very debatable.
As history evolved, there was the ruling class, the Ascendancy,  who were Anglican. almost without exception. This was the Established Church and had more power, rights and privileges. Tithes had to be paid by all non-Anglicans to support the Established Church. 
So if the poor Irish had turned to any of the Protestant churches, they wouldn’t be that much better off unless they tried to convert to Anglicism and you can bet your house on it that the Ascendancy would have nothing to do with them.
Converting to Presbyterianism was also a no-no as that’s the religion of the Ulster Scots and the native Irish are still brawling with that lot to the present day.
Above all else, France and Spain are Catholic countries and as they were enemies of England, the Catholic Irish couldn’t risk turning to anything else.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2021, 11:53:38 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?

Where the fundamental human rights of people, many of whom are children, are being abused (with the support of the state, and for profit), then your question is wholly irrelevant. Irish society has the opportunity now to get onto the right side of history on this one.


Why don’t you just answer the question I asked ? (Perhaps the answer undermines your narrative)

Or perhaps you're trying to suggest that if someone's application for asylum is deemed fraudulent, that they and their children deserve to have their human rights abused for profit. There were no doubt people who knew what was going on in mother and baby homes too, and made excuses for it.

Fair enough-you’re not willing to answer the question!
Correct. I'm unwilling to answer it because it would give creedence to your attempt to use fraudulent asylum claims as some sort of justification for human right abuses by profiteering companies with the support of the state.

Your question is not just irrelevant, but utterly cold hearted in motivation. My position is that no percentage of fraudulent claims justifies the level of human rights abuses going on in Direct Provision centres.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: APM on January 14, 2021, 11:54:08 AM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.


That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was. 
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Orior on January 14, 2021, 12:08:28 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: johnnycool on January 14, 2021, 12:08:46 PM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.


That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: johnnycool on January 14, 2021, 12:11:03 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

Sex education would be good at an appropriate age as well as contraception if wanted but a creche is far better than casting the girls out like pariahs.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: trailer on January 14, 2021, 12:30:51 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

Which schools?
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Main Street on January 14, 2021, 12:42:57 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

Sex education would be good at an appropriate age as well as contraception if wanted but a creche is far better than casting the girls out like pariahs.
or boosting abortion as an option.
 This is an excellent program in NI to support young mothers to continue with their studies.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: macdanger2 on January 14, 2021, 05:24:09 PM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.

And sorry to repeat the point, but any society that is outraged by this and remains silent/tolerant/passive about Direct Provision - the modern day, state supported, profit generating human rights abusing institution - needs to take a good look at itself.

What percentage of asylum claimed are dismissed as fraudulent?

It doesn't matter.

If claims are "fraudulent" as you put it, then ship those people out in a timely manner. Don't leave them and the (majority) of applicants hanging around in limbo for years.

 
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 14, 2021, 05:41:55 PM
https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ireland/asylum.php

The “majority” of claims (77%) in 2019 were denied
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2021, 06:36:27 PM
https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ireland/asylum.php

The “majority” of claims (77%) in 2019 were denied

So what? Abusing the human rights of the applicants and their families for profit is therefore acceptable?
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 14, 2021, 06:42:38 PM
https://www.worlddata.info/europe/ireland/asylum.php

The “majority” of claims (77%) in 2019 were denied

So what? Abusing the human rights of the applicants and their families for profit is therefore acceptable?

The question was posed by a prior poster as  why people weren’t outraged by the DP system

I haven’t lived in Ireland for almost 35 years so I can’t answer that question 

Maybe you can answer the question or start a new thread on the topic
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 14, 2021, 07:24:42 PM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.


That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.
No doubt about that.  Created it, enforced it and used a system that would but MI5 to shame to monitor it - confessions. 
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Orior on January 14, 2021, 10:07:50 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

Which schools?

Girls Model, Belfast

http://www.minimodeldaycare.co.uk/
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 14, 2021, 11:16:25 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?

Which schools?

Girls Model, Belfast

http://www.minimodeldaycare.co.uk/
Why not Boys' Model also?
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 14, 2021, 11:22:55 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?
So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children’s needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child’s development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Orior on January 15, 2021, 09:39:51 AM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?
So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children’s needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child’s development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.

None whatsoever, but that is treating the symptom not the cause. The cause being underage sex. Why is sex amongst underage so prevalent? Is it lack of sex education? Or is it sex education? Is it because we've made porn so available to everyone? Is it because 11-12 year old girls think its cool to share naked pics of themselves? Is it what is shown on television?

It seems to me that society has moved from one extreme to the other. There is a happy medium, but I'm not sure how to get there.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2021, 09:53:58 AM
Teenage pregnancy is still a complex issue even though the country is richer and regardless of nation, single mothers with kids are the poorest sector of society. Even in Switzerland it's the same. It's all political.

Ireland pre 1960s was dirt poor, there was no education beyond 6th class for most people, there were very few jobs, the uneducated generally emigrated and there was no sex education.
It's very interesting that when Ireland joined the EEC in 1973 things changed. Female equality rose up in the agenda and the bullshit about illegitimacy became a target.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Ed Ricketts on January 15, 2021, 12:55:07 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?
So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children’s needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child’s development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.

None whatsoever, but that is treating the symptom not the cause. The cause being underage sex. Why is sex amongst underage so prevalent? Is it lack of sex education? Or is it sex education? Is it because we've made porn so available to everyone? Is it because 11-12 year old girls think its cool to share naked pics of themselves? Is it what is shown on television?

It seems to me that society has moved from one extreme to the other. There is a happy medium, but I'm not sure how to get there.

Teenage pregnancy rates in the north have been falling steadily for 20+ years. Your entire thesis is without foundation.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 15, 2021, 02:53:29 PM
There are some schools in the north that have creches (for their pupils babies).

Is that what we all want?
So what problem have you with below for any child:

At Mini Model Day Care we aim to;

Ensure the happiness of each child entrusted in our care
Provide a safe, secure and warm environment in which each child will feel loved and cared for.
Develop an understanding of young children’s needs
Build and maintain relationships with children in the day care environment
Develop knowledge and understanding of play and the effect on the child’s development
Stimulate the all-round development of the child.
Provide children with time and support to experience and develop their own ideas through play.

None whatsoever, but that is treating the symptom not the cause. The cause being underage sex. Why is sex amongst underage so prevalent? Is it lack of sex education? Or is it sex education? Is it because we've made porn so available to everyone? Is it because 11-12 year old girls think its cool to share naked pics of themselves? Is it what is shown on television?

It seems to me that society has moved from one extreme to the other. There is a happy medium, but I'm not sure how to get there.

Teenage pregnancy rates in the north have been falling steadily for 20+ years. Your entire thesis is without foundation.

Totally agree. 

The answer is in bold - mainly brought about by a Catholic upbringing and attending Church Schools, especially Catholic ones. 
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: APM on January 15, 2021, 02:54:25 PM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.


That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.

Agree with all of that, but this couldn't have been facilitated without broader society and in particular the enthusiastic support of the pillars of the community (doctors, teachers and large farmers) who the system benefited.   

As they say, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The people who were strong enough to stand up to the church and stand out from the rest of society have to be admired.  The problem for many was the black and white thinking that was so common. If the right thing was considered the wrong thing by the church, then the good men and women who did the right thing, were considered renegades in the eyes of the unthinking populous. 

I remember a priest in our parish talking once about the challenge of greater levels of education versus faith.  The church really benefited from having many in their congregation that questioned nothing to the point of being soft with respect the church and its doctrine.  People talked about how good the nuns were to take in these "fallen women".

The point I am making here is that Irish society cannot absolve itself of these wrongs. The guilt of the church and state is not in question. But priests and nuns, good and bad, all came from Irish families.  Everyone attended mass, paid their dues and even the disgraceful funeral offerings.  From talking to older people, there was definitely an understanding among people, on a number of levels, that what was going on was wrong and those that sent their daughters to these places had to feel a serious sense of guilt.  There were alternatives and many unmarried mothers were supported by their families. 
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Main Street on January 15, 2021, 02:57:49 PM
I have just read the summary report and delved into the report itself. The report is not fit for purpose, it miserably falls short in important areas .Apart from the truthfully recorded witness accounts not adulterated by pompous commentary or otherwise edited,  the report should be reserved until it is stripped of its patent nonsense and each witness statement confirmed.
The report denies that children were sold, contrary to all accepted wisdom. It denies that mothers were incarcerated against their wishes.  Astonishingly it denies that mothers were physically abused and denies that children were taken forcibly from their mothers.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2021, 03:09:10 PM
https://youtu.be/AWpsOqh8q0M

What counts is the public reaction now. Michael D and Joe Duffy  found the right tone. The money involved isn't going to make a huge difference compared to Covid spending.

Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: Main Street on January 15, 2021, 03:29:06 PM
https://youtu.be/AWpsOqh8q0M

What counts is the public reaction now. Michael D and Joe Duffy  found the right tone. The money involved isn't going to make a huge difference compared to Covid spending.
What is the right tone?    what tone did Michael D hit?
Michael D did not comment on the serious shortcomings and downright lies recorded in the report.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 15, 2021, 04:20:25 PM
Think even before the Mother and Child Homes, the Irish people were always a bit depraved in their attitudes to illegitimate children and unwed mothers. There’s a long tradition of burying them in what were euphemistically called Fairy Fields. The new state went a step further and incarcerated them with support of many families, and if the children didn’t end up in unconsecrared ground like a septic tank, thousands were sold abroad often transported by someone who was emigrating to America who would bring child to new owners on other side, adding to the suffering of the mother who was allowed bond with child until it was ready to be dispensed with in a new way. We have a vision of ourselves as a great people but we were anything but.
Let's not let the Catholic Church off the hook for this one, please.
Of course the Church shouldn't be let off the hook, but neither should Irish society. These women were often sent to the homes by their own families.


That's the bit that gets me.  The deference shown by society to the church and how people put the clergy on a pedestal.  Ultimately it was the people of Ireland that put their daughters into these places.

APM-people were brainwashed into thinking that they would burn in hell for all eternity

Better to have one person repent to save the family from such a fate

No doubt that was part of it, but a large part of it was also about saving face and shame in social circles.  The parents that banished their daughters must have experienced a serious sense of grief and guilt.  They would have known it was wrong on some level.  Life was certainly cheaper then on a number of levels.  Families hiring out their children - that went on until the 1940s at least. You have to admire those that stood up to the Church and put their families first in the face of a hostile society.  Talk about the past being another country - it really was.

And who set the standard for this moral outrage in social circles? The men from the pulpit, that's who.

I can remember even in the 90's the local PP giving out from the altar about a young girl who'd got pregnant out of wedlock and in his day she'd have been cast out of the parish as a scarlet woman.

FFS even as a young teenager I knew what he was saying was mad.

This same misogynistic church required women to be "churched" after they'd given birth so that they could be allowed back in to the Church and this entailed standing outside while the congregation prayed for you as you had partaken in a sin of the flesh.

Even any still born babies were not allowed to be buried on consecrated ground up until very recently, 20 odd years or so.

Agree with all of that, but this couldn't have been facilitated without broader society and in particular the enthusiastic support of the pillars of the community (doctors, teachers and large farmers) who the system benefited.   

As they say, the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. The people who were strong enough to stand up to the church and stand out from the rest of society have to be admired.  The problem for many was the black and white thinking that was so common. If the right thing was considered the wrong thing by the church, then the good men and women who did the right thing, were considered renegades in the eyes of the unthinking populous. 

I remember a priest in our parish talking once about the challenge of greater levels of education versus faith.  The church really benefited from having many in their congregation that questioned nothing to the point of being soft with respect the church and its doctrine.  People talked about how good the nuns were to take in these "fallen women".

The point I am making here is that Irish society cannot absolve itself of these wrongs. The guilt of the church and state is not in question. But priests and nuns, good and bad, all came from Irish families.  Everyone attended mass, paid their dues and even the disgraceful funeral offerings.  From talking to older people, there was definitely an understanding among people, on a number of levels, that what was going on was wrong and those that sent their daughters to these places had to feel a serious sense of guilt.  There were alternatives and many unmarried mothers were supported by their families.

There was no broader society in narrow Catholic parish life - total control in many rural areas, in particular.  People were indoctrinated from conception to the grave, and beyond.   Including the priests.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2021, 06:36:13 PM
The institutional cruelty meted out to these women and kids  didn't happen in any other European catholic country and it didn't happen on such a scale in any poor country.

I think that it is related to Famine trauma. Israelis demonstrate similar levels of cruelty to Palestinians and it is only 80 years since the Holocaust.

After the Famine sexuality became strictly policed and average age at marriage increased significantly
 In an agricultural society the subdivision of land ended.
There was SFA other wealth
Unexpected children were a threat.
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: whitey on January 15, 2021, 08:40:37 PM
What some of the younger people don’t realize is that the church controlled absolutely everything in the country

A reference for a job

A form for a pension or disability benefit

A reference for boarding school/nursing training

A mortgage

A reference for accommodation

A priests signature was required on many of these documents. If a family crossed a priest the ramifications could be huge for a family or anyone related to them

I know of one person who claims that a priest made representation on behalf of an other individual which resulted in him losing his job in the ESB and someone else getting the job. This would have been in the 60s
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 15, 2021, 10:10:22 PM
What some of the younger people don’t realize is that the church controlled absolutely everything in the country

A reference for a job

A form for a pension or disability benefit

A reference for boarding school/nursing training

A mortgage

A reference for accommodation

A priests signature was required on many of these documents. If a family crossed a priest the ramifications could be huge for a family or anyone related to them

I know of one person who claims that a priest made representation on behalf of an other individual which resulted in him losing his job in the ESB and someone else getting the job. This would have been in the 60s

100% correct.  "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."
Title: Re: Mother and Baby Home Report
Post by: restorepride on January 15, 2021, 10:29:31 PM
The institutional cruelty meted out to these women and kids  didn't happen in any other European catholic country and it didn't happen on such a scale in any poor country.

I think that it is related to Famine trauma. Israelis demonstrate similar levels of cruelty to Palestinians and it is only 80 years since the Holocaust.

After the Famine sexuality became strictly policed and average age at marriage increased significantly
 In an agricultural society the subdivision of land ended.
There was SFA other wealth
Unexpected children were a threat.

The Famine was a watershed - but for Catholicism.  Because of the humanitarian work of the Quakers for example, some communities were too appreciative (to the 'detriment' of the Catholic 'faith') so Archbishop Paul Cullen brought about a new 'devotional revolution' which spread like a 'frenzy' apparently.  Dingle and Tuam get particular mention for the dramatic nature of the sermons.  This drove a renewed devotion which led to the abuse of 'Catholic Church' power - against 'evil'.  This evil was personified in the mothers and babies of the homes, born out of wedlock, so the nuns, in their belief, were simply "ridding the land of evil" hence the cruelty.  The nuns, remember, were also indoctrinated - to think that they were doing the right thing, God's work. 

I don't think that 'unexpected children' were a threat to anyone except the righteousness and 'purity' of the Catholic Church.

Sin é!  I'm away to say a decade of the Rosary!